| Author |
Message |
Cortney
Registered user
Username: Cortney
Post Number: 202
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2010 - 2:23 am: |     |
My sda family (whom I have no relationship with)says this: God's Laws prove who He is, the creator, we know God by His laws, His laws are His signature, to disobey God's laws would be to deny Him as God and creator of the universe. How does this make any sense to them? I don't get it. Not even from a former's perspective. Does anyone know what is meant by this? God made the Laws to point out sin and point to Christ, what does Law have to do with His identity as God? Is this an Ellenism? Also, they know 'people' who have told them they 'know' Pastor Mark Martin and have said some pretty slanderous things about him, which I'm not comfortable repeating on this forum. I do not believe these 'lies', I know Adventist have a hard time accepting people leaving their church for a true relationship with Jesus. This is why I will not step foot in an sda church, with exception to a funeral or wedding, even then? |
Cortney
Registered user
Username: Cortney
Post Number: 203
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2010 - 2:24 am: | |
I meant to post this in members section only. |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 1416
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2010 - 6:37 pm: | |
I've heard a lot of that sort of stuff when I was an Adventist. It's used to justify basing the religion on the Ten Commandments and distract the general run-of-the-mill Adventist from noticing verses such as Deuteronomy 5:2,3 where Moses told Israel: "...The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us..." and Deuteronomy 4:13 where that covenant is identified as the Ten Commandments.
Not to mention that Jesus brought in a whole New Covenant (Testament) Hebrews 9:15-17 and that the old one is obsolete (Hebrews 8:13). |
Psalm107v2
Registered user
Username: Psalm107v2
Post Number: 738
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2010 - 6:44 pm: | |
It's a sad argument that the 10cs are what prove God is creator. God is seen as creator from the very first words of scripture.. In the beginning God created...If we don't believe the first words, why would we believe anything else that follows. God "proves" Himself in His sovereignty, His, miracles, His timeless word and in so many ways. The attacks against Mark Martin have been around for years...I can't remember the exact verse but around Levitcus 19 or so I think there are some prohibitions against gossip. Unfortunately, people who disagree with SDA doctrine are labelled-rather than addressing the issues.
Enoch |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 11702
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2010 - 9:56 pm: | |
Cortney, I'm not sure exactly how it evolved, but Adventists claim that the law is the "transcript of God's character". For sure Ellen said that Jesus came to uphold and vindicate God's law.
None of this is biblical, of course. The law was a "thing" God wrote and gave to Israel. God Himself embodies all LAW. Law is the "identity", if you will, of God. It describes who He is and how His creation and redemption "work".
God does not submit to His law--God IS law. So the SDA arguments are "logic-based" and ultimately EGW-based, not biblical.
As for Mark Martin--the Arizona conference spread slander about him when they fired him around 25 years ago. The story spread that he was mentally unstable...and perhaps a great many other things have also been said.
People believe what they want to believe; Mark Martin makes Adventists "uncomfortable" because he represents the truth they want to avoid.
Colleen |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3411
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2010 - 10:15 pm: | |
A couple of years ago, someone posted a link on here to a quite literally "insane" website with outrageous lies about Mark Martin.
quote:My sda family (whom I have no relationship with)says this: God's Laws prove who He is, the creator, we know God by His laws, His laws are His signature, to disobey God's laws would be to deny Him as God and creator of the universe. How does this make any sense to them?
Usually the SDA argument is that the "4th commandment" (Sabbath) is "the only commandment" of the Ten which identifies that God is the one giving "the Law" and that He is the Creator. I've never heard this in reference to the entire Ten Commandments as a whole, just the 4th in distinction to the other 9. (In reality, however, at the very beginning of the Decalogue, God Himself identifies very clearly.)
As Colleen said, though, they do say that the Law is the "transcript of God's character." In fact, that phrase actually comes directly from Ellen White's writings.
Jeremy
(Message edited by Jeremy on September 14, 2010) |
Doc
Registered user
Username: Doc
Post Number: 603
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2010 - 1:22 am: | |
I suppose I shouldn't be surprised about Mark Martin being slandered, but it's pretty gross when Christians feel the need to do that to one another. Very Hungarian too, unfortunately.
I don't know him personally, but I have always found his materials most informative and edifying.
Adrian |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 6686
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2010 - 6:37 am: | |
Well...who says they are Christians Doc? |
Gcfrankie
Registered user
Username: Gcfrankie
Post Number: 712
Registered: 1-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2010 - 9:33 am: | |
Cortney, this does not suprise me about the slander against Mark Martin. When I was sda and was reading a book by a christian author who was not sda I got really weird comments such as how can you read such trash. The only author outside of sda that they approved of is Billy Graham.
I guess my going to a public school has paid off in the long run as we were taught to read material from many different authors. There have been books I have started and then ended up getting rid of them because they were off base. That is why I could not seriously get in egw's writings, too off the wall so to speak for me.
They use these tactics to try and prove they are God's remnent church. NOT! |
Animal
Registered user
Username: Animal
Post Number: 803
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2010 - 11:19 am: | |
"...a transcript of the character of God".....
Isnt Christ the transcript???
Jesus said...If you have seen ME you have Seen the Father"
That settles it for this animal.
Animal |
Doc
Registered user
Username: Doc
Post Number: 604
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2010 - 1:58 pm: | |
River, I knew someone would say that...
Good point though.
AB |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 1356
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2010 - 9:30 pm: | |
My MIL defended the law by saying that "the law is eternal". I also used to say that, but now I cannot find that in the Bible. Does anyone here has a Bible statement that says that the law is eternal? It sounds like the Psalms. But when I make a search, it does not result in a hit.
Hec |
Gorancroatia
Registered user
Username: Gorancroatia
Post Number: 71
Registered: 6-2010
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2010 - 6:59 am: | |
Hec, I defended the law like that, but thanks to Colleen and your prays for me have finaly understand that it is not eternal.
The SDAs are using Psalm 119. to prove that. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 11711
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2010 - 9:31 am: | |
Goran, you are right. When Psalm 119 uses "thy law", it is referring not to the 10 Commandments but to the Word of God. The entire Torah is called "the law". The Torah was God's word to Israel, and prior to the later OT books being written, it WAS the Scriptures for God's people.
Colleen |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 11712
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2010 - 9:33 am: | |
Goran, I'm sitting here right now thanking God for His faithfulness to you! He does remove our veils!
Colleen |
Freeatlast
Registered user
Username: Freeatlast
Post Number: 669
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2010 - 12:16 pm: | |
I agree with Animal, JESUS proved who God is!
"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;" Hebrews 1:1-3
1. God used to reveal Himself through prophets, now He is revealed in Jesus.
2. How much clearer a picture of God can you get than "the express image of His person"?! |
Animal
Registered user
Username: Animal
Post Number: 809
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2010 - 2:34 pm: | |
Sometimes the Animal can come up with a good point or two. Root beer will do that to you, ya know !!!
...Animal...burp !!! |
Gorancroatia
Registered user
Username: Gorancroatia
Post Number: 72
Registered: 6-2010
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2010 - 11:32 pm: | |
Colleen,
Previously, in a conversation with you, I have come to understanding of the New Testament. Before, I had similar findings but was not sure and firm to put faith only in Jesus' finished work.
I was touched by your patient attitude and Spirit give me a clear understanding of what is the new covenant.
God bless you and your work !
(Message edited by GoranCroatia on September 16, 2010) |
Pnoga
Registered user
Username: Pnoga
Post Number: 405
Registered: 1-2007
| | Posted on Friday, September 17, 2010 - 12:21 pm: | |
In Jeremiah 31:31-34 God tells us that He will establish a new covenant with Israel and Jacob, and it is not like the covenant He made with them when He led them out of Egypt. He said He will put His law within us and write it on our hearts and All with KNOW Him.
In John 14 Jesus explains if you KNOW Him you KNOW the Father, and if you seen Him you have seen the Father.
Paul |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 1364
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Friday, September 17, 2010 - 5:07 pm: | |
Of course it is a different covenant. The first covenant had the law in table of stones. This new covenant has the law in the believer's heart.
Hec |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 6706
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 17, 2010 - 8:10 pm: | |
Hey, welcome home Paul, how's it going with you brother?
 River |
Pnoga
Registered user
Username: Pnoga
Post Number: 406
Registered: 1-2007
| | Posted on Friday, September 17, 2010 - 8:23 pm: | |
Hey River, doing better, thanks for the welcome.
Hec, right on. The old covenant was on stone and should have only made those under it realize that they had hearts of stone. In Ezekiel 11 and 36 we are told that God will remove our hearts of stone and give us a heart of flesh. And we all know that the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us. Jesus is God's final Word to all who will believe. Jesus did not come to point us back to the old covenant as a way of life. He came to reveal the Father to us and to give us life.
Paul |
Jdpascal
Registered user
Username: Jdpascal
Post Number: 235
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 17, 2010 - 10:04 pm: | |
Was the old covenant the stone tablets or was it the words?
Is the new covenant the heart or the 'law' that is written?
Is the new covenant more than the "law" that is written??
The difference is not primarily in where it is written but what is written.... it is a different covenant - written in a different place.
In what way is the new covenant different besides the difference in where it is written???
If where it is written is the only difference, it really isn't a new covenant.
Is the method with which it is written a part of significance...?
(Message edited by jdpascal on September 17, 2010)
(Message edited by jdpascal on September 17, 2010) |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 1366
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Friday, September 17, 2010 - 10:39 pm: | |
JD, I like your questions!
Hec |
Nowisee
Registered user
Username: Nowisee
Post Number: 563
Registered: 5-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, September 18, 2010 - 7:38 pm: | |
Me, too!
If I say I have a pair of NEW shoes, that automatically means they are not the same as the old pair I had. |
Pnoga
Registered user
Username: Pnoga
Post Number: 407
Registered: 1-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 20, 2010 - 9:56 am: | |
JD,
"In what way is the new covenant different besides the difference in where it is written???
If where it is written is the only difference, it really isn't a new covenant.
Is the method with which it is written a part of significance...? "
Absoluty, if where it is written is the only difference, than it truly isn't new, and God could not say through Jeremiah, a new covenant not like the old. Besides what would be the difference between being on stone and memorized in heart. The stones were placed behind the veil where no one but the high priest and only but once a year could enter. And the High Priest did not see the stone tablets, they were inside the ark and covered by the mercy seat, the room was dark and he brought in incense so the smoke would further cover. So everyone indeed needed to memorize the 10 in heart to know them... how is that different from what the SDA church teaches?
To me, how it is different in nicely and accurately described by Paul in Romans 10. If you Believe with your HEART and confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord, you will be saved. He even compared to What Moses said about the old covenant, the Word is near and in our mouth, but Moses was using that to describe the old covenant. Paul made it clear that the Word that is near and in our Mouth to whom would go and get it and do it, is Jesus. Jesus is God's law in our hearts and confessed with our mouths.
Paul |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3421
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 20, 2010 - 3:28 pm: | |
In regard to "new" being "new," see this previous post that I just linked to in another thread: http://www.formeradventist.com/discus/messages/5370/3347.html#POST44504
Jeremy |
Bobj
Registered user
Username: Bobj
Post Number: 561
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Monday, September 20, 2010 - 6:45 pm: | |
Jeremy
Thanks for your link to the post on CT vs NCT, above.
It was very informative, glad that it is in these archives.
Bob |
Nowisee
Registered user
Username: Nowisee
Post Number: 568
Registered: 5-2009
| | Posted on Monday, September 20, 2010 - 11:12 pm: | |
Yes, thanks Jeremy.
And Gorancroatia, God bless you! |
