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Cortney
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Username: Cortney

Post Number: 188
Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2010 - 3:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is the question I received from an sda relative of mine who has been keeping-up with my discussions on fb. I don't know how to best answer his questions because they just try to turn it around on me.

Courtney, tell me this, which day did God make Holy?

Is the Sabbath connected to all the covenants or creation, or both?
Sunnimoreno
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Username: Sunnimoreno

Post Number: 151
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2010 - 8:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Moses clearly stated that God made the 7th day holy (Genesis and Exodus)... there's no question about that. It was God also so said that an ark had to be built because a great flood was coming. If one had an average IQ it would not be hard to make him understand that the command to build an ark was specifically addressed to Noah in God's COVENANT with Noah.

Can we apply this same reasoning to the Sabbath? To whom was the Sabbath in particular or the 10 Commandments in general specifically addressed as a covenant?

"1 Moses summoned all Israel and said: Hear, O Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. 2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our fathers that the LORD made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today. 4 The LORD spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain. 5 (At that time I stood between the LORD and you to declare to you the word of the LORD, because you were afraid of the fire and did not go up the mountain.) And he said: 6 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 7 "You shall have no other gods before me..." Deut5:1-7

"19 He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. 20 He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws. Praise the LORD." Ps147:19,20

There is nowhere in the Bible that states that the people outside of the Israelites are bound by the 10 commandments or the Sabbath. The Christians Covenant with God - the New Covenant, is all about Jesus and his death and nothing about a set of laws or a specific day to be considered holy.

Did God make the 7th day holy? YES, but the command excluded all who were not bound to the Old Covenant/Testament.
Bskillet
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Username: Bskillet

Post Number: 761
Registered: 8-2008
Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2010 - 9:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Courtney, tell me this, which day did God make Holy?


Every seventh day was made holy for the Israelites, as was every single day of the entire Jubilee year (Lev. 25:11-12). Why don't Adventists observe the Jubilee and take a year off from work every fiftieth year?
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 3399
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Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2010 - 9:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Is the Sabbath connected to all the covenants or creation, or both?"

Neither. It is connected to only one covenant--the Mosaic/Sinaitic/Old Covenant.

Jeremy
Free2dance
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Username: Free2dance

Post Number: 38
Registered: 2-2010
Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2010 - 10:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well said! I would add to this that in Hebrews where it says that there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God its not refering to the 7th day. Sabbath does not translate "seventh-day" it translates "rest". Hebrews is refering to an ever present rest in Christ! =) PRAISE GOD!

I can't believe how many times I have read this as an SDA and saw it as a proof text! I never thought about the key word "Today". Back in Hebrews chapter 3 v 13 when using the word Today it is refering to every day, " 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness."

Then in chapter 4 vs 7-10 (after explaining the kind of rest God is after for His people) it says, " 7Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts."[d] 8For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his."

This has nothing to do with the sequence of days but an ACTIVE statement made by our lifestyle of faith in Jesus Christ alone for Salvation.

My grandfater recently asked my mom about us formers and said, "they all keep saying they are free, they are free...what are they FREE FROM?" It breaks my heart. If they only knew...
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 8524
Registered: 3-2004


Posted on Friday, September 10, 2010 - 1:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Don't forget that Deut 5:15 tells us that God gave the sabbath to the CoI because He took them out of Egypt.
Diana L
Bobj
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Username: Bobj

Post Number: 560
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Posted on Friday, September 10, 2010 - 8:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

God declared that the day was coming when He Himself would do away with the Sabbath along with the other old covenant festivals—see Hosea 2:11. What does the weekly Sabbath have to do with anything regarding our salvation? Paul says it’s about as important to new covenant believers as is vegetarianism—see Romans 14. It’s just totally off-topic and irrelevant for new covenant believers!
Cortney
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Username: Cortney

Post Number: 189
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Posted on Friday, September 10, 2010 - 10:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you so much for the verses and info., I will let you know what I hear back, unfortunately I believe my relative still sees/interprets scripture with the 'Adventist veil' so I don't know what the reply will bring. Probably more Adventist's 'textproof'! I just don't like it when people try to twist my point, or even worse than that twist the Holy scriptures. What perturbs me the most is that he was reading my and Diana's conversation with an Adventist on Ramone's Sabbath/Sunday worship parallel. He is saying we need to look at the sabbath with a different point of view, not understanding what Ramone was originally trying to get across. And the fact that he is not even fb buddies with Ramone, but can read the entire conversation bothers me, I have nothing to hide but , I just think it is sneaky, especially when you have no contact or conversation with someone for a year and a half, not even through fb, we never message each other, and they look through conversations and decide to e-mail you and tell what is wrong with your way of thinking! I prayed that God's will be done, on this matter.
Free2dance
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Username: Free2dance

Post Number: 40
Registered: 2-2010
Posted on Friday, September 10, 2010 - 11:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cortney, I have a relative who follows me on FB but will say nothing to me about it. I infuriate him and I hear about it through the good 'ol family grapevine. I also have long distance family who have made no effort to be apart of my life in any real way for over 10 years now talking about me and taking an interest in me (not the good kind). There is something deeply powerful at work when we choose to walk away from SDAism.

I guess I would encourage you to lean into your Christian friends during this time of conversation with your family member. It is crazy making having these conversations. At some point you may want to think about not having them for a while. Read what 2 Timothy says about engaging in these discussions, and not just whether or not we should, but how we should.

Courage! <><
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 8525
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Posted on Friday, September 10, 2010 - 11:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

He is not an FB friend with Ramone!! I really do not understand how that happens. I know BSkillet wrote on a topic a friend of mine, from my church, had. I asked him about it. It was open to him. I did that the other day to some one else with whom I am not an FB friend.
Let us just pray for your "friend". Maybe our awesome God arranged that so he could hear the truth.
Diana L
Bskillet
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Username: Bskillet

Post Number: 763
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Posted on Friday, September 10, 2010 - 1:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think it is always useful to answer a question with another question. That is how our Lord did things when He was on the earth, and it forces the other side to admit any hidden biases or assumptions. So my question is this:

What is the "other day" that God designates in Hebrews 4?
Cloudwatcher
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Username: Cloudwatcher

Post Number: 169
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Friday, September 10, 2010 - 1:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Facebook likes to change its privacy policies every now and then. If you don't want random people knowing what you comment on FB, go check your privacy settings ....
Click on Account
Privacy Settings
And make your CUSTOM setting, (you can even block individual people from seeing your comments/posts).

I agree with Bskillet about answering a question with a question. Where (before Exodus and before it was given to the Jews) does God mandate that people rest, keep and worship on the 7th day? this is a big ASSUMPTION that SDAs RUN with..."God gave it to Adam and Eve. God gave it to man before there were any Jews! The Sabbath was instituted at creation!" Blah blah blah....

Pray about that veil. No amount of reasoning and factual evidence will persuade a person who has been indoctrinated since birth.
Free2dance
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Username: Free2dance

Post Number: 43
Registered: 2-2010
Posted on Friday, September 10, 2010 - 2:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bskillet, wonderful question!
Honestwitness
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Username: Honestwitness

Post Number: 1011
Registered: 7-2005


Posted on Friday, September 10, 2010 - 3:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, bskillet! Excellent technique! Thanks for making me think about other questions that can be asked.

What does the New Testament say about the 10 Commandments?
Patallen
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Username: Patallen

Post Number: 105
Registered: 7-2010


Posted on Friday, September 10, 2010 - 4:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree with bskillet because it works. Whenever I've asked pointed questions like that they have never responded (so far).. they just seem to fade away into oblivion. When they see me, we talk about everything but the answer to my questions.

There's this lady I WAS exchanging with on the AllExperts.com site. She revels in being an SDA for over 38 years and thinks she has all the answers and is very arrogant. My last communique with her went something like the following (dealing with her insistence that the Ten Commandments are still binding):


quote:

Do you believe the Bible when it says that the Ten Commandments is the Old Covenant? Deut. 4:13 reads, "13 He declared to you his covenant, the Ten Commandments, which he commanded you to follow and then wrote them on two stone tablets."

Do you believe the Bible when it says that Jesus will usher in a New Covenant? Jer. 31:31 reads, "31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah."

Do you agree with the dictionary that the word NEW means: fresh, just found, discovered or learned; new information, different from the former or the old.....?

Do you believe the Bible when it says that the law was introduced 430 years AFTER Abraham? Gal. 3:17, "The law, introduced 430 later (meaning after Abraham)...." or do you believe SDAs theology that the law was around before Sinai and that the patriarchs kept it?

Do you believe that the Ten Commandments are God's ETERNAL MORAL law when the Bible firstly calls them the covenant (not moral laws) and secondly, Gal. 3:19 reads, "What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator." Please take note that the Bible says it was ADDED UNTIL the Seed came. That means when Jesus came and fulfilled the law and the prophets, the New Covenant became effective and the Old Covenant (Ten Commandments) was no longer binding. Heb. 8:13 (MSG) reads, "By coming up with a new plan, a new covenant between God and his people, God put the old plan on the shelf. And there it stays, gathering dust."

If you believe the Ten Commandments are God's moral commandments instead of the Covenant as the Bible calls them, please share with me your proof text. According to Lev. 23, the weekly Sabbath of the 4th commandment is a feast, so it would not be classified as moral if there were categories. Lev. 23:1-3 reads, "1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'These are my appointed feasts, the appointed feasts of the LORD, which you are to proclaim as sacred assemblies.
3 "'There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a Sabbath to the LORD."




After I challenged her beliefs for a while, I recapped as follows:


quote:

To recap, IF you believe the Bible when it says that the Old Covenant is the Ten Commandments, which was placed in the ARK of the COVENANT because it was the Covenant; IF you believe the Bible when it says that the Law began at Sinai and ended when Christ, the Seed came; IF you believe the Bible when it says that Christ ushered in a NEW Covenant; IF you believe the dictionary meaning of NEW to mean 'fresh, different from the former or the old..."; IF you believe the Bible when it says that the Law came 430 AFTER Abraham (not before or at creation); IF you believe the Bible when it says that the law was given because of transgressions UNTIL the Seed comes; IF you believe the Bible when it says that when Christ was on earth He gave NEW Commandments or principles for living; IF you believe the Bible when it says that Gentiles did not even have the law and were foreigners to the covenant, THEN you should have no problem believing that when Christ died, the Old Covenant (aka Ten Commandments) was no longer binding because when Jesus said, 'It is finished' the law and the prophets were fulfilled. Could it be that the Ark of the Covenant with the engraved stones inside of it disappeared because it is no longer binding and a New Covenant was in place with New Commandments?

Just a thought before closing. Rev. 21:1 says, "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea." Do you interpret NEW in this text to mean anything other than 'fresh, not like the former or old?" Or does it mean a renewed earth, an upgraded earth, or a recycled earth? I think not!

Fortunately (or maybe unfortunately for SDAs), you can't pick and chose the meaning that best suits your theology. I look forward to your response from the Bible only.




This was back in May and she hasn't answered me yet, altho I see that she has posted answers to others' questions. I emailed her (after a while) and asked for a response. She says it's coming but so far, nothing. I pray that my questions have caused her to honestly look for answers and maybe start asking questions.

Pat
Cortney
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Username: Cortney

Post Number: 192
Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Friday, September 10, 2010 - 5:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pat, I think I'm going to post some of those verses on my status:-) When I have the time I will try to post my relatives original questions and my answers in the Member's section. I still haven't heard back, though, that could be good or bad!
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 3400
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Friday, September 10, 2010 - 5:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Pat,


quote:

Just a thought before closing. Rev. 21:1 says, "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea." Do you interpret NEW in this text to mean anything other than 'fresh, not like the former or old?" Or does it mean a renewed earth, an upgraded earth, or a recycled earth? I think not!




Actually, Adventism does teach that the "new earth" is really just a "renewed/recycled earth"! They say that the fire that comes down from heaven in Revelation 20 is the lake of fire and that after it "annihilates" the wicked, the righteous literally walk on their ashes and God "renews" the earth, after it has been "purified" by fire.

Jeremy
Patallen
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Username: Patallen

Post Number: 106
Registered: 7-2010


Posted on Friday, September 10, 2010 - 6:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jeremy,

Oops! See, even as an Adventist I didn't know what I believed!! Thanks, I'll check it out.

Pat
Hec
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Username: Hec

Post Number: 1347
Registered: 3-2009
Posted on Friday, September 10, 2010 - 7:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Actually, Adventism does teach that the "new earth" is really just a "renewed/recycled earth"! They say that the fire that comes down from heaven in Revelation 20 is the lake of fire and that after it "annihilates" the wicked, the righteous literally walk on their ashes and God "renews" the earth, after it has been "purified" by fire.


Finally, they got something right.

Hec
Patallen
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Username: Patallen

Post Number: 107
Registered: 7-2010


Posted on Friday, September 10, 2010 - 7:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jeremy,

When I reread your response, maybe I misunderstood but I was trying to make the point that yes, SDAs do believe that the earth will be renewed but the Bible says it will be new. The Bible does say that the first heaven and the first earth had passed away.


quote:

2 Peter 3:7-13 (MSG)
7 The current galaxies and earth are fuel for the final fire. God is poised, ready to speak his word again, ready to give the signal for the judgment and destruction of the desecrating skeptics.
8 Don't overlook the obvious here, friends. With God, one day is as good as a thousand years, a thousand years as a day.
9 God isn't late with his promise as some measure lateness. He is restraining himself on account of you, holding back the End because he doesn't want anyone lost. He's giving everyone space and time to change.
10 But when the Day of God's Judgment does come, it will be unannounced, like a thief. The sky will collapse with a thunderous bang, everything disintegrating in a huge conflagration, earth and all its works exposed to the scrutiny of Judgment.
11 Since everything here today might well be gone tomorrow, do you see how essential it is to live a holy life?
12 Daily expect the Day of God, eager for its arrival. The galaxies will burn up and the elements melt down that day—
13 but we'll hardly notice. We'll be looking the other way, ready for the promised new heavens and the promised new earth, all landscaped with righteousness.




The attempt was to show her that the New Covenant is New, not an extension of the Old and as an example I used the New earth, which is not a Renewed or extension of the Old earth. Am I missing something or taking the new heavens and new earth in the text too literal?

Pat

(Message edited by patallen on September 10, 2010)

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