| Author | Message | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 996 Registered: 5-2007 |
Another Sabbath Day is here, Another Saturday of aprehension and uneasiness. Reading my Bible this morning, looking for relief I found this passage; 1 Cor: 19 Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. J: Several thoughts occur to me here. 1)The Apostle Paul already had in his own mind that he was not under the law. In context, I take this to mean, not under the authority or command obligation to the law. (assumed here 10C, and more likely the entire law of Moses) 2)Paul recongnized that there were sincere believers (or potential believers) who were still under the conviction (understanding) or obligation to the law, yet he was still trying to remain among them so that he could convey the Gospel of Christ. 3) How did Paul himself conclude from Scriptures that the law was ended at the cross. It seems to me that most of his teachings were revelations direct from his encounter with Christ. Paul was radical compared to the other Apostles. Paul carried the Gospel and the format of doctrine to the Gentiles. 4) I do not understand why Christ did not make more of this new covenant system clear to us, especially during the last days of his ressurected time on earth before he ascended to heaven. I am familiar with the passage about Christ writing His laws upon our hearts after the cross. But as any good legalist will attempt to point out, they insert 10C including the forth. I have thought about that and if indeed Christ laws are written upon our hearts, they likely would not be instructional (letter) but rather Spiritually discerned awareness of right and wrong (morals) and a commonsense application in the variances and circumstances of life. The Spiritual aspect written upon our hearts enables us to minister in Love and degrees according to the sensibilites we encounter. He said one will not teach another , but that they would knwo the law. May I take that knowing to mean , we would know Spiritualy right from wrong. I wish it were possible for me to let go of the tablets of stone. It is as if I get 99% there and then that doubt remains. 21To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. J: How does Paul define Christ's law? 22To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. 23I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings. J: At minimum, Paul was about meeting people where they are. But where does he safely take them. How do they know they are safe in his teachings? How do I know I am safe, laying down the tablets of stone? Jim | ||
| Surfy Registered user Username: Surfy Post Number: 697 Registered: 11-2007 |
Great observations, Jim. Really good post. You wrote, "I do not understand why Christ did not make more of this new covenant system clear to us, especially during the last days of his ressurected time on earth before he ascended to heaven." I'm thinking maybe He did. Think about this. Looking back we can see where he made His death and resurrection very clear to His disciples, yet they did not see it coming. I think He did make the new covenant very clear to us. We just don't "see" it. Among the reasons that it is hidden from us is our mindset, based on our preconceived or erronious beliefs. Also, you wrote, "How do I know I am safe, laying down the tablets of stone?" You will know. Plain and simple. It's a huge decision with spiritual/eternal implications for ourselves and our family and generations to come. We don't go to a meeting or read a post online and decide to change our whole way of thinking immediately. It's done over time. I think most of us had an "aha" moment...the moment we just knew that we were making the right decision but it came after a great deal of studying, asking questions and trusting in the small voice of God that we hear whispering to us. Surfy | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 1161 Registered: 7-2004  |
2 Corinthians 3:7-11, ESV:
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| Michaelmiller Registered user Username: Michaelmiller Post Number: 95 Registered: 7-2010  |
I think Jesus did make the new covenant evident... but it wasn't completely understood at the time. 1) Look at the sermon on the mount. He went on top of a mountain to give a new law (entole vs nomos). He said His purpose was to fulfill the old law. 2) He gave us communion as the sign of the new covenant. 3) He said "it is finished" 4) Prophecy speaks of this event I too have heard the "same law different place" argument before. The problem I have with it is that it doesn't fit. 1) For one, that is not a "new" law but rather an old law moved across the room. 2) Secondly, we have the illustration in the rich young man in Mat 19. If you stop at verse 18 then you get the standard SDA proof. To understand this story fully though, you have to keep reading. By verse 26 it is evident that self-reliance on commandment keeping isn't the point of the story. The point is that with self-reliance (man) it is impossible, but with God all things are possible! 3) Jesus expanded the meaning of the 10C which even more illustrates the futility of self-reliance. The 10C (and the rest of the law) was only ever there to make the Israelites get to the point that they would realize that they couldn't do it. They would need to cry out to God for His help! Looking at the context, it really does seem like the best way to teach slaves from Egypt (a people with no trust in any other than themselves) how to trust God. Unfortunately, they relied on themselves anyway. Faith was the point... not law. 4) Today we have Jesus to look back on with a full demonstration of NOT depending on self-reliance. We can see why He died for us. Unfortunately, man still wants to rely on self (and the law) as part or all of salvation. Michael | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 2105 Registered: 4-2000  |
Without Christ, the Old Testament is unintelligible. But when a person comes to Christ, the "veil" is lifted (2 Cor. 3:14) and his spiritual perception is no longer impaired. With the veil removed, believers are able to see the glory of God revealed in Christ (John 1:14). They understand that the Law was never given to save them, but to lead them to the One who would. The Law is a killer in the sense that it brings knowledge of sin. It acts as a "ministry of death" because no one can satisfy the demands of the Law on his own and is therefore condemned. When God gave Moses the Law, His glory appeared on the mountain. It is important to note that Paul is not depreciating the Law; in fact, he was acknowledging that is was "glorious" because it reflected God's nature, will, and character (2 Cor. 3:7). The "ministry of the Spirit" is Paul's descriptive term for the New Covenant. Moreover, the Law had a fading glory. It was not the final solution or the last word on the plight of sinners. The New Covenant is what remains because it is the consummation of God's plan of salvation. It has permanent glory. Indeed, the ultimate purpose or end focus of the Law is entirely on Christ (Romans 10:4). Paul is saying that belief in Christ as Lord and Savior ENDS the sinner's futile quest for righteousness through his imperfect attempts to save himself by efforts to obey the Law. It requires some measure of audacity and soul-searching to preach the awe-inspiring, transforming Gospel (thereby inviting others to have the same transformational encounter with God that we have experienced). Truly, the "good news" about Jesus Christ is too good not to share. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1458 Registered: 3-2009 |
Dennis, long time no see. Where were you? Happy to see you back. Hec | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 2106 Registered: 4-2000 |
Hec, Thank you for your kind words. Sylvia and I are in a praise mode with just having celebrated our tenth FREEDOM DAY on October 16th. In other words, this marks our 10th anniversary of having found true freedom in Christ. Those who are intent upon accurate answers will no longer remain in a toxic-faith system. Yes, indeed, there is an abundant, wonderful life beyond Adventism. His grace still amazes me, Dennis Fischer | ||
| Michaelmiller Registered user Username: Michaelmiller Post Number: 96 Registered: 7-2010 |
Dennis... Congrats on 10 years! Michael | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 2107 Registered: 4-2000 |
Greetings to my Facebook friend, Michael, I well remember the days when the Southern Publishing Association existed in Nashville. I attended meetings there in 1967. I was working as a young, unmarried literature evangelist in Johnson City, Tennessee in those days, and I lived with the local pastor. I was treated like a son. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 569 Registered: 1-2006  |
Dennis Congratulations on Freedom Day! 10 years, and forever! Bob | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 8728 Registered: 3-2004  |
Dennis, congratulations on your 10 years of freedom to you and your wife!!!! Diana L | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 619 Registered: 5-2009 |
Congratulations also, Dennis! Ten years of not reading food labels, unless you have allergies!  Ain't GRACE amazing! Jim, it really helped us to do a detailed Bible study on the old vs. new covenant. I have to say I was really ignorant on the subject and it was an eye-opener! Also, Bob George's comical illustration of a man with a nice new suit (new covenant) putting on a worn-out raggedy suit (old covenant) over it and looking pretty pleased with himself really got my attention. And I had never noticed/understood Christ's comment at the Last Supper about the cup being the new covenant in His blood. I'm probably a bit older than many of you on the forum, but I don't think the old/new covenant thing was ever addressed in all my years of sda Bible classes. Keep studying and asking God to make it clearer to you. It really is all there in the Bible, but hard for us to see instantly, usually. My own simple illustration is: If I went and bought myself a new car, it HAS to be different than my OLD one! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11909 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jim, God never removes ALL potential doubt before we obey. Remember Eve? Even she, who knew God intimately and knew His command, was beguiled by the doubt the serpent presented. She acted on the new, unknown possibility instead of standing unswervingly on God's word. She analyzed the words instead of trusting the Word. God asks us to act on His word without having all the contingencies clear. He tells us truth, and He tells us what we are to believe. He asks us to believe Him and His promises and act on them. We are not to analyze them once we know what He says. You won't know for sure if you'll be "OK" without the Law until you act on the promises of the new covenant outlined in the New Testament. Until you actually take the leap and trust God's word, there will always be doubt. It's the same as when my dad died. I had come to believe we have spirits that survive death, but when I saw him lying lifeless, I suddenly was filled with doubt, and all the old teachings came back to me. It was fearful--what if I decided to believe the idea of "spirit" and it wasn't true? What if...? What if...? I finally decided I had to trust God's word and stop being doubtful and double-minded. It wasn't until I decided to trust God's word and believe He told us the truth that my doubt disappeared. You have to act on the truth of God's word, Jim, because God cannot lie, and what He says, IS. Until you decide simply to "go with" His word instead of your own doubts and analyses, you'll be consumed with fear and "what if's". Colleen | ||
| Michaelmiller Registered user Username: Michaelmiller Post Number: 100 Registered: 7-2010 |
Dennis, I've been in the Nashville area since early 2000. I am originally from Florida. I moved to Atlanta, GA for college and spent some time there after college. I ended up meeting Karetha online. After doing the long distance thing for a while I moved to TN in Jan 2000. We married in Jan 2001. Karetha has spent most of her life in TN. I'm sure we are a couple degrees apart through at least one common connection. I found out that Karetha and I have always been connected by mutual friends to a few formers... we just never knew it! SDAs don't like to discuss their former family/friends among the SDA crowd. It is sort-of like a family who has a relative in prison that is never talked about. Now that we're out of the SDA church we are discovering we have been not that far removed from several formers all along. The "small world" cultural effect in the SDA world apparently doesn't stop even once you are a former. Michael | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1494 Registered: 7-2007 |
Congratulations, Dennis! Jim; if I may speak metaphorically, it's like a beautiful, polished bowling ball. (Now, I've never bowled, but I assume they're heavy.) Anyway, Adventist doctrine (and other cults) is like a bowling ball that you carry everywhere you go. I kept mine close beside me everywhere I went. Anytime anyone wanted to see it, I would let them admire it: "isn't this area of the ball precious?! We have the SABBATH!!!!!!! 'Day is dying in the west...' that starts the Sabbath. Wonderful!!!" Then I met a Christian who started to point things out and fast and pray for me! (I didn't know she was fasting and praying until afterward.) I was impressed with her obvious sincerety and the fact that the Lord had dramatically rescued her from the Roman Catholic church. Therefore I was certain that God would soon show her that the SDA church was the truth and she would embrace Ellen White. Years passed. Finally my friend pointed out something that made me willing to look into it. It was just a little thing really - Daniel 10:13 on who Michael the archangel is. Then I read a testimony about someone who found out that Jesus DIDN'T wait until 1844 to go into the Most Holy Place in Heaven. (Hebrews 6:19,20; Heb. 9:12,25; Heb. 10:12) I still hung onto my bowling ball, Jim. The aforementioned only convinced me that Ellen White was wrong - not that the whole church was wrong. (I didn't realize that the SDA church is based on her.) Then I found out about the covenants. It amazed me to see Hebrews 8:13 where it says that the old covenant is obsolete. I noticed Deuteronomy 5:2,3 where Moses said to Israel: "The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us..." Jim, that old covenant is spelled out in passages such as Exodus 34:28 and Deuteronomy 4:13 "So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone." I could hardly believe my eyes, so I was going slowly, cautiously as I studied this over a period of days. Then the devil overplayed his hand. He must have been getting desperate, but his desperation didn't get him anywhere, because one prayer by that Christian friend made him have to leave. What happened was, once when I came home from work during this time, intending to look at these passages of scripture again. I opened the Bible and the words of the verses made no sense. It was as if someone had scrambled the letters or something. I couldn't focus my mind on them. I could think clearly about anything else, but there was a dark "cloud" obscuring the words of the Bible. I prayed and nothing happened. As soon as I could though, I mentioned what was happening to my friend and she prayed for me. As soon as she did - WHOOSH!!! - the dark cloud vanished! And then, Jim, after I "saw" clearly what the Bible said, versus what the SDA church said; I just dropped that bowling ball. It no longer held an attraction or temptation for me! | ||
| Wiredog Registered user Username: Wiredog Post Number: 14 Registered: 8-2010  |
Jim, I was thinking about your question all this weekend. Specifically Part 4 of your question where you ask, “why Christ did not make more of this new covenant system clear to us, especially during the last days of his resurrected time on earth before he ascended to heaven. I heard that question asked by Adventists when they challenged Christians on the issue of he Lord’s Day vs. the Jewish Sabbath. If I can paraphrase it,”If Sabbath was done away with, why didn’t Christ just say so?” To the Contrary I believe John capture Christ’s explanation to that question, when he wrote at Christ said in John 16:12-15 (NASB), 12"I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13"But when He, (R)the Spirit of truth, comes, He will (S)guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14"He will (T)glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. 15"(U)All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you. (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2016&version=NASB) Jesus was hated by the Pharisees for what He did and what He taught. Jesus quoted a familiar Scriptures (i) from the Shema--to Love your God with All your Heart (Deut 6:5) and (ii) Leviticus 19:18, love your neighbor as yourself. He didn't even mention the Sabbath though it was mentioned in both places becasue Jesus constantly drew men’s minds back to Father and hearts to His Original Divine Law that was morally perfect and before Exodus. This Law as modeled by Jesus, was drastically different from their 613 Commandments derived from the Torah that all the Jews we accustomed. It was so drastically different that Jesus' own family though he was insane and the teachers and scribes of the Jewish Law called Him demon possessed (Mark 3:20-22). Just for exemplifying the two Greatest Commandments, the Pharisees wanted to kill Jesus (Mark 3:6), so I don’t find it hard to believe if Jesus began to preach Sabbath was done away with He may have been unable to finish his ministry. Because either (i) they would have killed Him on the spot or perhaps (ii) His disciples would have abandoned him as they were still not fully developed in their theology. God in his own wisdom chose to reveal this and give the Gifts of the Spirit during Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came upon them fully. In Mark 4 Jesus prepares them telling them in verse 13 if his Disciples can understand His parable of the Sower, how they will figure out the other parables. He directs them in 24, “Take care what you listen to. . . .” the more they listen and learn more will be revealed to them. It was not until His death and resurrection would their understanding be fully cured and faith hardened enough that the new Church’s foundation could be established. From then on we see the Apostolic Church declaring that the Day of worship is not of import and that we as Christians are under Grace and not the Law of Moses. How would the other Apostles and Paul have that authority to so confidently and blatantly proclaim that truth unless it was given to him, (Acts 9:15). For me personally, it was hard for me to understand this for 28 years because I neglected to study and sift through the Scriptures for myself. In His Grip, Ben (Message edited by wiredog on October 31, 2010) | ||
| Michaelmiller Registered user Username: Michaelmiller Post Number: 103 Registered: 7-2010 |
I had some really great thoughts and scriptures about this thread at lunch yesterday... but I have since lost them. If they ever come back I will post them. Michael | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 200 Registered: 2-2010 |
Jim, I had a lot of these questions too. I couldn't just "let go" of the Sabbath, I needed to see what God "did with it". The 10c make reference to God's rest at creation when teaching about the Sabbath law, so just taking it out of the old covenant wasn't enough for me. I needed to know why God pointed the Jews back to His rest; what was the significance there? And what was Hebrews talking about when it says that their remains a Sabbath rest (not day) for the people of God. Through my study I became clear that the 10c was a covenant between God and the Israelites and that I was a gentile. That was a wonderful freedom. But then like you say, once the law is written on our heart doesn't that simply mean it was transferred and not changed? Then one morning I listened to, and read along in Hebrews (the whole letter in one sitting). By the time I was done all I could do was praise God. I was deeply moved and trembling and full of joy and understanding. Sabbath was never about a day. It isn't even translated as "7th-day". It is all about rest from our working for righteousness resulting in a reborn, reconciled Eden-like relationship with God. I believe that God put a shadow of rest from works for righteousness right in the middle of the mandated list of works for righteousness (which is so like Him to provide hope in the middle of an impossible task, even if we can't see it till we look back-what confirmation.): Deut. 6:25, just after the 10c are given: "And if we are careful to obey all this law before the LORD our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness.” Their righteousness did not come through their sacrificial system, like SDAs like to teach. As you see here, it was dependant on keeping the law. The sacrificial system was simply a way to deal with their inability to keep the law. That too points to Christ. We are not able to keep the Law, so God made a way to deal with it through Jesus, a sacrifice once for all. We are no longer under that law but Christ came to teach us a new way of living. The other thing I saw when looking at that verse was that Moses calls the 10c the LAW, not the commandments. "Commandment" is simply a word that means God's teachings/requirements. The 10c don't have a copyright on the word "commandments", once I figured that out the whole NT began to read different for me. If Moses is talking about the 10c when he talks about the LAW, then who are SDAs to say that Paul, who knows Moses better than they do, is not referring to the 10c when he says we are no longer under the law? This is not secret code; it's clear as day and is all over the NT which is the word of God and the teaching of Jesus. The problem is we don't "see" it that way until the brainwashing looses its power. Then next step for me was when I started thinking about things a little in reverse. This might be harder to explain so bare with me. If there were Christians who were teaching that gentiles needed to keep that LAW (as we see all through the NT) and what they "really mean" is the sacrificial system and circumcision like the SDAs say, then I think Paul would have dealt with it very differently! The SDAs say that all Christ nailed to the cross was the sacrificial system, implying that this is the only part of the law we are not under, again implying this is what Paul was talking about when he teaches that we are not under the LAW. Think about it, you are taught the gospel which is that Christ/God came, was sacrificed as atonement for our sins, was buried in a tomb, and rose again on the third day according to scripture. Then people come in and say, "Christ died as a sacrifice BUT you need to continue making sacrifices." I think Paul would have addressed that issue very differently! Wouldn't he have spent more time on the fact that we are no longer in need of a sacrifice? Instead Paul talks about being a SLAVE to the LAW for righteousness, which jives with the line in Deut. 6:25 that says IF we are faithful to keep these Laws which God has commanded us, then THIS WILL BE OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Being a slave to something implies that there is required work. The sacrificial system (while very detailed with it's own requirements) doesn't seem to me like required work to be enslaved to but an act of redemption for those who do not do the work that they are enslaved to. Before the SDA brainwashing began to loose its power over me I saw all kinds of "examples of upholding the Sabbath", but I had it all wrong. I was not reading the point of scripture, I was looking for the Sabbath, finding it, and then saying, "see, see, there it is again!" and somehow that meant it was binding in my head. I had to begin looking at what the passage was TRYING to teach me instead of the simple fact that it mentioned Sabbath before I started seeing truth. I also used to think that the fact that I felt anxiety on the Sabbath issue might mean that God wrote the Sabbath on my heart and that meant I needed to keep it. One day Colleen told me that, "Guilt comes from the deceiver, conviction comes from the Father." When I began to look at what was behind my over analyzing Sabbath keeping I saw that it was fear, guilt, and me needing a plan B in case this grace alone thing didn't work out. I had to let go of that. God was convicting me to let go of it so I could move forward with Him. It wasn't till I jumped off the proverbial cliff that I completely landed in the arms of Jesus. Very often when dealing with my over-analytical 4 year old, I will ask him to do something and he will question me and need my request to make sense before he obeys. I am usually pretty happy to explain my reasons to him, but this RARELY happens until AFTER he obeys me. I need my son to know that I know best and that it is MY job to care for him, not his. His job is to trust and obey. For the most part he knows I have his best interest in mind, but being the little human he is, I think he is suspicious that I am just out to confuse him and boss him around. Time will show him that my reasons are good and that obedience comes first. He is finally old enough to begin to understand that good ALWAYS follows obedience and anxiety and discomfort always follow rebellion. Jim, it wasn't till I jumped, that I was able to see and accept ALL of the evidence of scripture for what it was. All the studying I did before that was hard earned and incomplete. I liken it to the blind man who when he was healed saw tree like figures before he was able to see clearly. For him it was a process, and I think healing looks different for different people. He meets us where we are and provides us with what we need...Himself, which is far more important than all the explanations in the world. When Thomas needed more evidence than was given him in order to believe the truth, Jesus presented him with Himself. It's what we do with Him that determines what we will come to know about truth. Once we accept Him for Him and what He did, all the rest is easier to see because He reveals it to us. But if we hold onto the teachings of the SDAs that Jesus was only the end of the sacrificial system which is only in place for those who do not keep the law (which again was made only for those leading up to the end times while everyone else will have to stand on their own works in the last day), well... we are not really believing in Jesus and so we are not believing unto salvation. He really isn't trying to make this hard. He really isn't hiding anything. We just need to let go of our own need to make it fit together and jump... Sorry again, brevity is not my gift. =/ | ||
| Rossbondreturns Registered user Username: Rossbondreturns Post Number: 43 Registered: 10-2009 |
The Law, Old Covenant and New Covenant The Lord led me to write about this very topic this morning. | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 201 Registered: 2-2010 |
Ross, this is a great post! Thank you for sharing! Also, correction on what Colleen said, I think it was "guilt come from the ACCUSER; conviction comes from the Lord." I had origonally put "deciever". There may not be a difference but there is a chance that accuser in this context is in referrence to Moses being our accuser and not to Satan, the father of lies. |
