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Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 3483
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 - 11:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I came across an article yesterday from the April 9, 2009 Adventist Review, entitled "Cry of Anguish," by SDA scholar Dr. Norman R. Gulley, and it was so heretical that I just had to post some of these excerpts from the article:


quote:

Some from His own nation had given Christ over to the Romans. Judas betrayed Him. Peter denied Him. His disciples all forsook Him when He needed them most. All of that He could take. But when God also seemed to abandon Him, His heart broke. Jesus cried out: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Matt. 27:46).

[...]

Nothing can separate a person from God (Rom. 8:35-39), except sin (Isa. 59:2); which means that Christ felt a separation to the depths of His soul as He bore “the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2b). “The Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all” (Isa. 53:6b). As an eternal member of the Trinity, Christ had always been enfolded by the wondrous love of the Father and the Spirit. How awful His separation from them now! His loneliness was intense. From the heights of eternal love He had plunged into abandonment to save humanity, whatever the price to Himself, knowing most would reject Him. There’s no greater love than this!

[...] Christ felt abandoned, wrenched from the Father, as if no longer the Son of God. The terrible load of sin so abhorrent to the Father and the Spirit, and so horrendous to Christ, cursed Him, crushing out His life. Sin-bearing separated Jesus from the fellowship He longed to have and desperately needed with the Father and the Spirit.

[...]

All through His life on earth Christ had clung to God alone, a power outside of Himself. He depended solely on God (Father and Spirit) in a union that knew no separation, and sometimes required whole nights in prayer (Luke 6:12). Fellowship with God was heaven to Him in a world so unlike His first home. Christ found escape from the depravity all around Him by communing with God. He sensed the Father so close that He could say: “The Father is in me, and I in the Father” (John 10:38b).

Total Abandonment
The Man Jesus came to the brink—where He needed God the most. Yet precisely at the time of His greatest need He felt utterly abandoned. It is impossible to comprehend the unutterable anguish of that terrible loneliness. To watch Jesus suffer and die as a man must have caused intense pain to the Father and Spirit, as they suffered together with Him. Christ’s cry is the most pathos-filled experience recorded in the Gospels. Although He’d previously spoken of His resurrection (Matt. 16:21) and of His return at the Second Advent (Matt. 16:27), during those awful hours on the cross He could not see through the darkness to the resurrection and the Second Advent. He felt that the “separation [from God and the Spirit] was to be eternal.”4 Christ was willing to perish in order to save humanity.

And He would have done it just for you!

Each member of the Trinity suffered at the cross. And it wrenched the heart of Deity to hear the Man of sorrows cry out “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Mark 15:34). The “payment” for human guilt meant that Christ bore the punishment for all sin. He experienced what would have been our total abandonment by God. There was no other way.

It was not an angry God punishing human guilt, but a heartbroken Father and Spirit suffering with Christ as He alone was the sacrifice for sin. None will ever understand the depths of shared suffering of the Trinity during the hours Jesus hung on the cross. Only faintly does it come to mind in the words “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son” (John 3:16a).

At Last, Hope!
All the Trinity were present at the cross. [...]

Just before death, in sheer faith, Christ again spoke to God as Father: “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit” (Luke 23:46). Wonder of wonders, the helpless human Jesus, possessing full divinity within, never gave in to depend on His own divinity, but hung on to the divinity of His Father, even though as Sin-bearer He felt God-forsaken. Who can understand the depth of the sacrifice involved?




You can read the whole article here: http://www.adventistreview.org/article.php?id=2500

Notice how he totally denies that Jesus is God, even going so far as to call God "a power outside of Himself"!!

Jeremy

(Message edited by Jeremy on November 16, 2010)
Honestwitness
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Username: Honestwitness

Post Number: 1048
Registered: 7-2005


Posted on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 - 1:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

...the helpless, human Jesus...hmmm...

...never gave in to depend on His own divinity...

This makes it sound like Jesus is a totally separate being from the Father and the Holy Spirit, out there all by himself struggling with this mess he's gotten himself into. The Father and HS may be there, but they're hovering helplessly nearby.

Talk about confusion.

Oh, well. People have had trouble understanding the Trinity for ages.
Honestwitness
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Post Number: 1049
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Posted on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 - 1:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My Presbyterian pastor gave a good sermon on the Trinity about a year ago. He used the term "perichoresis," which is Greek for circle dance. Evidently this term was used by church fathers many centuries ago to describe the relationship between the members of the Godhead. If you look it up on Wikipedia, there's a pretty good explanation.
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 3484
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 - 2:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, and Adventism has always been unable to accept perichoresis due to their heretical theology. Notice how Dr. Gulley says in the above quote: "He sensed the Father so close that He could say: 'The Father is in me, and I in the Father' (John 10:38b)."

So Jesus' statement was not based on His actual knowledge (omniscience) or the actual fact and reality of perichoresis, but instead, according to Gulley, He simply "sensed the Father so close" that He could make the statement, even if it was not literally true!

Jeremy
Bskillet
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Posted on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 - 4:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Compare:

quote:

He could not see through the darkness to the resurrection and the Second Advent.


To:

quote:

"For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God."
--Heb. 12:2



I have dealt with this before with my SDA family, who will swear even to the point of frustration, that Jesus didn't know He would be resurrected. Pure blasphemy, and it shows that Adventists do not believe that Jesus is the One True God.
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 3486
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 - 4:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Excellent verse, Bskillet! I don't if I had ever compared that to the SDA heresy before. And you're right that it shows that they don't believe Jesus is the One True God.

Jeremy
Grace_alone
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Posted on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 - 4:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why the heck did Jesus say he would raise the temple in 3 days then? (John 2:18-20)

This article in addition to Ellen White's writings are human based thinking. It's all related to human reactions, feelings, emotions. Thats exactly why the church views Jesus as less than God at battle with Satan, the tragic figure...

Leigh Anne
Indy4now
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Username: Indy4now

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Posted on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 - 7:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"The “payment” for human guilt meant that Christ bore the punishment for all sin."

This statement really jumped out at me. It's so subtle but it undermines what Christ did complete for us at the cross. He bore our sins... not just the "punishment" for all sin. Even "payment for human guilt" doesn't give justice for what Christ did for us by His sacrifice.

... and this was printed just last year???

You're right Leigh Anne, adventism has painted Christ as the tragic figure. sad.

vivian
Colleentinker
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Posted on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 - 8:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes. I've become more and more aware that the great controversy worldview has made it impossible for Adventists to know the true God. That's not to say that some don't recognize him, as per Romans 1, and seek for Him, but the religion itself defines all of reality so wrongly that God cannot be perceived as the one true God.

Think about it: in the GC worldview, God's main job seems to be to protect everyone's free will. Satan has to be protected; Jesus has to be protected; humans have to be protected. Evil can fight good; satan can fight Jesus. Nothing is certain until humanity attains the character of Christ and God can stop protecting everyone because finally some have reached the goal. Then Jesus can come back.

With a biblical worldview, God is sovereign, and His glory is the thing that defines all of reality. Evil is a subset of creation, under God's sovereign control. God is not protecting the freedom of evil but is emanating love, grace, justice, mercy, wrath, righteousness. He exists in a different kingdom than those in the domain of darkness.

These worldviews make the Trinity completely different, depending upon which view you hold. The Father is different; the Son is different; the Holy Spirit is different.

Adventists and Christians "look" at the Trinity and call God a "Trinity", but the understanding of them is different. Let's say two people look at the moon. Each firmly believes in the moon. Yet one person believes the moon is made of green cheese; The other believes that same visible moon is made of rock.

Which one believes in the true moon? The green cheese believer will relate to the moon completely differently than does the rock believer. And if a piece of moon rock falls to the earth, the green cheeser will deny that rock is part of the moon.

If a person does not understand the nature of God, if he believes in a God that is not a Trinity or who is not who the Bible defines Him to be, he does not believe in the true God. Even though they call Him "God" and define Him with proper-sounding words, if they don't know who He is, they will be unable to relate to Him or recognize Him.

Colleen
Bobj
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Username: Bobj

Post Number: 570
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Posted on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 - 9:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Jeremy!
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 3490
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Wednesday, November 17, 2010 - 3:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

For those wanting to study the issue of why Jesus cried out, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?," you can check out this excellent article by the late Christian apologist Bob Passantino (who worked with Walter Martin): http://answers.org/theology/forsaken.html You can also check out my own webpage on the issue at: http://www.cultorchristian.com/psalm22.html

Something that recently helped me to further understand this issue was actually a quote from a Catholic theologian that I came across recently on the Catholic Answers forum at: http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=215756

Here is the quote:


quote:

According to A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture by Dom Bernarnd Orchard, et. al, p. 903:

Quote:

Eli, Eli, lamma sabacthani are the opening words in Aramaic...of [Ps 22]. Doubtless our Lord continues the psalm in silence. The fact that the words are a quotation removes the dogmatic difficulty. The psalm is not a cry of despair but, on the contrary, a hymn of supreme confidence in God despite profound suffering. As in our Lord's case the divine 'foresaking' in the psalm is no more than a poetical expression of acute physical and mental pain to which God has 'abandoned' the psalmist without, however, having 'turned his face away', Ps [22], 2, 25. In our Lord's mouth, indeed, the words are not even a complaint because his intention is simply to show that the fruitful martyrdom of the innocent psalmist was a shadow of his own."




Jeremy
Colleentinker
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Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Wednesday, November 17, 2010 - 3:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you, Jeremy. That is very insightful. Sometimes I forget that Jesus was quoting Ps. 22, and the rest of the psalm was probably also on his lips. He was fulfilling Scripture and, even on the cross, pointing all those who watched and knew the OT back to the words written about him a millennium or so before.

He IS the Son of David, the reality of David's shadow. There was so much more going on than just Jesus' internal personal suffering—which was so much greater than anything we can imagine that there's no point even trying to articulate it.

He was fulfilling Scripture!

Thank you for this great quote.

Colleen

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