| Author | Message | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2314 Registered: 5-2007  |
ETERNAL DAMNATION (Mark 3:22-30) When the scribes accused Jesus of being possessed by Beelzebul as an explanation of how he was able to cast out demons, he responded by saying Satan would never cast out a demon by the power of one of his demons. Jesus ends his response by saying that anyone who blasphemies the Holy Spirit is guilty eternal damnation, a sin that is eternal. Apparently, the Holy Spirit was involved when Jesus cast out the demon and to credit Satan with performing an act that was really of the Holy Spirit is blasphemy. My question is this: Do you think Ellen G. White is guilty of this kind of sin by declaring the Scapegoat to be Satan instead of our Savior Jesus Christ who is the one who carried all our sins into the grave when he died upon the cross? Fearless Phil | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12019 Registered: 12-2003  |
Phil, I do believe this satan/scapegoat doctrine is in the same category. The horror of not only her declaring this to be true but of the inexplicably heated defenses of so many Adventists who have written to defend it really overwhelms me. There is only ONE Sin-Bearer, only ONE who could take responsibility for our sin; only ONE who has the authority, holiness, and Life to not only take responsibility, but also to bear the penalty and to turn death inside-out. Only the Lord Jesus can be the scapegoat; it is the most horrifying heresy to call it satan. Colleen | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1518 Registered: 3-2009 |
I'm still not convinced about this "eternal punishing" issue. However, reading this post, I had an idea. So I'll ask the question. It is said that the "hell" or "eternal punishment" is not necessarily a literal fire, but death defined as "separation from God." SDA's say that it is not burning for ever, but the results are for ever. They say that there will be degrees of punishment based on how life was lived. So a Hitler will burn longer than someone who did not "sin" as much as Hitler. My question is: Will there be degrees of punishment in hell? If the punishment is "separation from God", how will the degrees be applied? Some will be closer to God than others? If there are degrees of punishment in hell, then the statement by EGW saying that it is in Satan's favor to deceive as many as possible because they will pay for their own sins, while he, Satan will have to pay for the sins of the saved. If there are degrees of punishment, then Satan will pay harder than others and adding the sins of the saved will make his case worse. But if there are not degrees of punishment, then there will be no difference in what Satan will suffer in hell, regardless of how many sins he had committed. The stance that Satan will pay for the believer's sins is congruent with degrees of punishment, as SDA's teach, but not otherwise. It seems to me that the only way to have degrees of punishment in hell would be if God is keeping record of sins to have each pay according to its deeds. But if the sin that will send one to hell is "unbelief", not accepting Jesus gift, then there is no difference. Hec | ||
| Handmaiden Registered user Username: Handmaiden Post Number: 184 Registered: 7-2008 |
Dear Hec, i do not know about the varying degrees of hell. I do know that Jesus taught more about hell than heaven. i do know that there is ONE SIN that EQUALLY causes a person to be lost or separated from God, that sin is the rejection of the Lord Jesus. i do that Jesus died for the sins of the WHOLE world not just for the sins of the believer. i do know that there is ONLY ONE UNPARDONABLE SIN, that sin is rejecting the conviction of the Holy Spirit that we are sinners and need the Lord Jesus, as our personal Saviour. i do know that this is an ETERNAL SIN against an eternal God that requires an eternal punishment. i do know the word for ETERNAL life is the same word used for ETERNAL punishment. i do know that Jesus was willing to suffer the horror of physical crucifixtion, the torment of rejection by those He was dying for and the ultimate terror and pain of being one minute completely sinless and the next moment bearing the weight of the sins of the whole world and the JUST WRATH of God poured out upon those sins. He was willing to do this to keep us from this ETERNAL PUNISHMENT | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12024 Registered: 12-2003 |
First, the Bible does seem to indicate that there are degrees of punishment in hell, sort-of like the inverse of rewards for the righteous. But we are not told anything about what that will look like. Second, hell is not primarily about "sins". It's primarily about refusing the One Sin Bearer who once for all eternally paid the price for our sin. If we are in Christ, we are eternally alive and will not come into judgment. If we are not in Christ, we remain dead in our sin and will ultimately be thrown into the lake of fire which, by the way, was not prepared for humans but for the devil and his angels (Matt. 25:41). Jesus did not die for satan's sin. We are not told Satan's story except as it intersects with earth. But hell is not about "sin" primarily but about being "dead": separated from God's own Life and eternally outside of communion and community. Rejecting the Sin Bearer is an eternal act; hell is eternal because those who are there have rejected the Eternal One who paid for their sins and who offered them Eternal Life. It's just not primarily about our "sins". If salvation hangs on our needing to do good works, then hell would have to be about bad works. But salvation is about believing in the Lord Jesus and receiving His Life; hell, therefore, is about rejecting the Lord Jesus and His completed atonement on our behalf and eternally being dead in sin. Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12025 Registered: 12-2003 |
Oops--Handmaiden, I didn't see your post. You said it well! Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3500 Registered: 10-2004  |
Colleen, When reading your post above, the following question came to mind to ask annihilationists: "How can people be burned up by something that was created for non-physical beings?" (Of course, in the case of Adventism, they teach that the devil and his angels are physical beings...sigh.) Jeremy | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6924 Registered: 9-2006  |
Hec, what do you make of Mark 9:43-47? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12027 Registered: 12-2003 |
Ooh--Jeremy--another great question. Very good point! Colleen | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1519 Registered: 3-2009 |
I think that I did not explain myself very well. My comment was not against "eternal hell", even though I'm not quite clear on that yet. My comment was to disprove SDA contention that the saved's sins will be place on Satan. If there are not degrees of punishment then that doesn't make sense because Satan would suffer the same with or without the believer's sins place on him. That would only make any sense at all if there are degrees of punishment. Hec | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 2149 Registered: 4-2000  |
Are there degrees of punishment in hell?
Additionally, the second death (the death that never dies) involves being deprived of God's fellowship forever. Yet in another sense it is God's very presence that makes hell so dreadful. Although He is not present in grace and blessing, he is present in holy wrath. As Martin Luther warned readers of his Commentary on the Psalms: "Not as though the ungodly see God and His appearance as the godly will see Him; but they will feel the power of His presence, which they will not be able to bear, and yet will be forced to bear." Indeed, the worst feature of hell is its duration. The unconfessed and unforgiven sins of the ungodly will be forever before the Father. In 1265 AD, Thomas Aquinas aptly stated in his Summa Theologiae, that "The duration of a punishment does not match the duration of the act of sin but its stain as long as this lasts a debt of punishment remains. The severity of the punishment matches the seriousness of the sin." John Wesley's views on hell were captured by Thomas Oden: "In death, whether buried or cremated, we face either worm or fire. In either case the worm dies or the fire goes out. But hell is posited as a place where this desolation does not end, where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched. He is rather to be feared, who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell, not those who kill the body, but are not able to hurt the soul." Augustine cautions us against following the example of those who "while not slighting the authority of the sacred Scriptures,...nevertheless interpret them wrongly and suppose that what is to happen will be not what Scriptures speak of, but what they themselves would like to happen." Dennis Fischer, Biblical correspondent (on issues related to death and hell) www.truthorfables.com (Message edited by Dennis on November 25, 2010) | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 2150 Registered: 4-2000 |
Handmaiden, Think about it! If Jesus fully paid the penalty for the sins of the WHOLE world, then everyone would be saved (universalism). Our awesome and sovereign God doesn't practice unjust or illegal double-indemnity that would require double payment (Jesus and the sinner) for the very same sins. The angel of the Lord declared to Joseph: "She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins" (Matt. 1:21 NASB). "For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy" (Romans 9:15,16 NASB). Indeed, salvation comes from the Lord alone (Jonah 2:9). God doesn't owe us anything. It's all about Him! In awe of His saving grace, Dennis Fischer | ||
| Handmaiden Registered user Username: Handmaiden Post Number: 185 Registered: 7-2008 |
Dear Dennis, i assure you that i am not a univeralist i do not believe that all men will be saved i know the Bible teaches that the path is narrow that leads to eternal life and few there are who find it. i believe that more people will be lost than saved. But salvation is not based on our performance and it is not our SINS that separate us from God. Jesus did in fact pay for the SINS of the whole world but NOT for the ONE sin that is unpardonable the SIN of rejecting Jesus as our Saviour. That sin will condemn a person to hell for all eternity. Please read I john 2:2 where it clearly states that indeed Jesus paid the FULL PRICE for the SINS of the WHOLE WORLD. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and NOT only for ours but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD. l JOHN 2:2 There truly is nothing standing between us and God except our acceptance of His Son. Jesus did do the full work of atonement on the cross...it is finished. Sins have been paid in full and will not send you to hell. ONLY one sin will send a person to hell and that is rejecting Jesus and what He did for you on the cross. It is not the breaking of the law, sins that separtes us from God. Jesus was sinless, He kept the law PERFECTLY and credited that righteous keeping of the law to us and He took upon Himself the sins of the whole world .. every transgression of the law and paid the FULL penalty for us ...death ... the wages of sin is death. NO, indeed we do not have to pay for sins twice. Jesus paid in full. But ONE ETERNAL SIN remains and that sin of rejecting the Son has an eternal consequence. much love handmaiden | ||
| Handmaiden Registered user Username: Handmaiden Post Number: 186 Registered: 7-2008 |
i do believe God is a just God and that the degrees of punishment may have to do with how much knowledge we have of the Saviour and continue to reject Him over and over. Also i do believe Jesus paid the full penalty for sin...but he did NOT remove the CONSEQUENCES of our sins and that we do have to suffer those consequences in this life. There is a big difference between eternal penalty and temporary consequences. much love handmaiden | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12030 Registered: 12-2003 |
Great posts, Handmaiden. Colleen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 2151 Registered: 4-2000 |
Handmaiden, My post #2150 only addressed the eternal consequences of a profane life--not the consequences we suffer from our sins in this life. However, I appreciate your response. Technically speaking, if God wanted to save a Nero or a Hitler, He could do so without jeopardizing the holy atmosphere of heaven. If God chose to create a new heart in the vilest sinner, that would be within His sovereign domain. Thankfully, what we as sinners actually do (including any response from our fallen will) has absolutely NOTHING to do with our salvation. Salvation is not merely 99 percent from the Lord but rather 100 percent. Regeneration creates an intense desire for Jesus that compels the elect to believe (John 3:16; John 6:44,65). God doesn't go against their fallen will and somehow drag or force them into heaven, but rather He changes their hearts so that they will be fully willing and eager to believe in Him (e.g., Paul on the road to Damascus). All the ungodly in hell have committed "eternal" sins that cannot be forgiven in this life nor in the life to come. Obviously, we cannot choose what we do not desire. When a man and a woman fall in love we assume that they are are aware of it. Likewise, the members of God's wonderful family are admonished to make their calling and election sure and thereby "know" that they are saved (2 Peter 1:10;1 John 5:13). Salvation is forever! Dennis Fischer | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 2152 Registered: 4-2000 |
Handmaiden, My apologies for not responding earlier to your suggested passage (1 John 2:2). I have been out of my office for most of this afternoon. The phrase "for the sins of the whole world" is a generic term, referring not to every single individual, but to mankind in general. Christ actually paid the penalty only for those who would repent and believe. A number of Scriptures indicate that Christ died for the world (John 1:29;3:16, 6:51; 1 Tim. 2:6; Heb. 2:9). Since much of the world will be eternally condemned to pay for their own sins, they could not have paid for by Christ. God has mitigated His wrath on sinners temporarily, by letting them live and enjoy earthly life. In that sense, Christ has provided a brief, temporal propitiation for the whole world. But He actually satisfied fully the wrath of God eternally only for the elect who believe. Christ's death in itself had umlimited and infinite value because He is Holy God. Thus, His sacrifice was sufficient to pay the penalty for all the sins of whom God brings to faith. But the actual satisfaction and atonement was made only for those who believe. The pardon for sin is offered to the whole world, but received only by those who believe. There is no other way to be reconciled to God. Dennis Fischer (Message edited by Dennis on November 26, 2010) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6929 Registered: 9-2006 |
I'm glad I wasn't an Adventist and come out and fell under the teachings of this character, aren't you hand maiden?  | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1041 Registered: 5-2007 |
Handmaiden, You stated that God does not remove the consequences of sin. In my legalism and tendancy to relate to God as a punishing God. I have tried to move into another direction. I agree in a general sense that the consequences of sin are self evident. The damage we do to our own selves and to others. The outcome of a pattern of life that brings us into hardships. These are consequences. When we sin, it pulls us away from our close relationship to God, another consequence. Then I ask, what is the remedy? How are we rescued from the not only the consequence but also from the cause. How may we approach our God despite our failings? Forgiveness and mercy give us encouragement and hope. Healing renews our strength. God can restore our lives. Yet, you are right, there are consequences. Loss and scars can be permanent. Consequence is a teacher, a pain to move away from. I see not only my own failings but also those around me who struggle. Not realizing the true cause of why they end up in such a mess. Bearing one anothers burdens teaches me that perhaps this is how God see's us. Floundering, trying, floundering again. You love them anyway. Love is unconditional. They cannot heal without it. Jim | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6931 Registered: 9-2006 |
Quote: "How may we approach our God despite our failings?" Good question, easy answer, we approach him in our failings, perhaps in repentance, perhaps in sorrow for our condition, perhaps both, but we have to come as we are. If we come to God with a "payment" of works, that is unacceptable, we bring our filthy rags, the stinking cloths we have on, and he heals us and puts his robe on us. River |
