| Author | Message | ||
| Michaelmiller Registered user Username: Michaelmiller Post Number: 193 Registered: 7-2010  |
Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Luke 24:27: And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself. Luke 24:44-45 He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms." Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. Rom 3:21-28 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. Feel free to add more scriptures concerning "fulfilled" as spoken in Mat 5:17. Michael | ||
| Pnoga Registered user Username: Pnoga Post Number: 436 Registered: 1-2007  |
My favorite one which fulfills it to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD Luke 21:22 because these are the days of vegeance to FULFILL ALL THINGS THAT ARE WRITTEN. Paul | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 708 Registered: 5-2009 |
Luke 4:16-21. He went to Nazareth, where He had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day He went into the synagogue, as was His custom. And He stood up to read. The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. Unrolling it, He found the place where it is written: The Spirit of the Lord is on Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, and to release the oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor. Then He rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on Him, and He began saying to them, "Today this scripture is FULFILLED in your hearing." | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6995 Registered: 9-2006  |
In Matthew 5:21-48 Jesus gives six specific examples of how his teaching fulfills the law. In each example he contrasts pharisaic distortions of the law with his own interpretations, and demonstrating the higher righteousness, v 20. Entrance into the kingdom of heaven is by righteousness of heart, not by external legalism. Romans 3:21-28 picks up on this, and I love how it blends in with Jesus teachings, explains and solidifies the law of faith and total dependency on Christ the messiah who came to save his people from their sins. The Adventist will jump to Matthew 5:18 to proof text why we must obey his favorite pet distortion, that of Sabbath keeping, while he disregards his inability to keep all the rest of the law, to end up accusing those who would walk in the Spirit, of lawlessness. But we are not left lawless, because the law of faith in Christ atonement works within us to do Gods bidding. River P.S. I hope that wasn't too confusing. when we go into a teaching of the law of faith at work within us, the teaching is a lot longer than that, I barely even abbreviated it.  | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 2172 Registered: 4-2000  |
In light of this discussion, let us not forget Galatians 3:13: "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law" and not from our duty to uphold His righteous standards. Indeed, the basic OT ethics are the same as those of the NT gospel. This is why Jesus and the writers of the NT referred to OT ethical teachings on an ongoing basis. After all, sin is aptly described in Scripture as "lawlessness" (1 John 3:4 ESV) In other words, sin is cosmic treason against a holy God. The fact that we can't perfectly obey God's moral requirements, doesn't relieve us from obeying them imperfectly (e.g., honoring our parents imperfectly is far superior to not honoring them at all). Dennis Fischer (Message edited by Dennis on December 17, 2010) | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 2173 Registered: 4-2000 |
Matthew 5:17:
Dennis Fischer | ||
| Michaelmiller Registered user Username: Michaelmiller Post Number: 195 Registered: 7-2010 |
Dennis, I don't know how to say this without being rude. At the same time I don't want to hold something against you in an un-Christian manner, so I'm just going to come right out with it... What are you afraid of? Do you think that I am throwing my salvation away and that you need to keep rescuing me? I'm not certain why, but you keep trying to start up an argument regarding where on the spectrum between CT and NCT I should be at... sometimes in threads that are unrelated (like this one which was limited entirely to correlating "law and the prophets" and "fulfilled" to where other scriptures mention it). I've also been posting single scriptures on Facebook without any commentary, and you have tried to insert this argument there as well (in a way detrimental to reaching SDAs with the gospel I might add). Other times I've just gotten a bad feeling that you've been attempting to be way overly "buddy buddy" with Karetha and I for the sole purpose of recruiting us to your position in the argument. Since you are so persistent with attempting to derail discussions with this argument so often, I can only presume that you put it at a level of salvific importance and feel it is your duty to follow me around and correct me. Quite frankly, I feel as though the horse has been beaten and I am tiring of it. I don't feel that we are that far apart theologically; we both agree that the law no longer has power over us and neither of us is advocating lawlessness. Where we disagree is in regards to what constitutes the "law of liberty" / "law of Christ" and the specific mechanics of Romans 7 (with your leaning closer to CT and me leaning closer to NCT). Please don't take me the wrong way... I want to hold nothing against you as a Christian brother, which is why I also wanted to be open about what I perceive as a problem. Michael | ||
| Pnoga Registered user Username: Pnoga Post Number: 437 Registered: 1-2007 |
The letter kills, the spirit gives life. | ||
| Pnoga Registered user Username: Pnoga Post Number: 438 Registered: 1-2007 |
Dennis, " The fact that we can't perfectly obey God's moral requirements, doesn't relieve us from obeying them imperfectly " So, we cannot keep the law perfectly, which means we (All humans) are keeping the law imperfectly. Man was keeping the law imperfectly before Jesus' first advent. So according to what you are saying, Jesus' pretty much came for no reason? If God's whole point was that we are to keep the law the best we can, then there is no need for salvation, since we are all capable of keeping the law imperfectly. Paul | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1549 Registered: 3-2009 |
Isn't this the SDA argument? You do what you can and Jesus does the rest? You keep the law imperfectly and Jesus completes it. Hec | ||
| Rossbondreturns Registered user Username: Rossbondreturns Post Number: 70 Registered: 10-2009  |
No the SDA argument is that Jesus was just like us and managed to keep the 10 Commandments perfectly...so we should be able to also. It all boils down to the understanding of the Holy Spirit. SDA= Body + Breath = Living Soul Bible= Body + Spirit= Living Soul | ||
| Michaelmiller Registered user Username: Michaelmiller Post Number: 197 Registered: 7-2010 |
In my experience the SDA argument is both... Ever see a SDA line chart detailing imputed and imparted righteousness? Below the line is our growth and above the line is Jesus making up the difference. At the same time, the line always ends in the upper right, which implies perfection of character. At least that is how the chart was always presented to me when I was a SDA. Michael | ||
| Michaelmiller Registered user Username: Michaelmiller Post Number: 198 Registered: 7-2010 |
By the way... I first noticed the upper right part when I was studying my way out. Prior to that it never jumped out at me. Michael | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 471 Registered: 4-2007 |
"Isn't this the SDA argument? You do what you can and Jesus does the rest? You keep the law imperfectly and Jesus completes it. Hec" It certainly is!! I've seen 'thousands' of variations of this tired litany from SDAs on CARM. No matter how it's colored, they are placing themselves under the law. In order to survive this deadly position, they magically transform God's righteous standards to the level of 'Good Intentions', now they can righteously claim to be 'doing and keeping'. It's a bit disconcerting to see this espoused on a FAF forum, I thought that by now this would have been clearly revealed as foolishness. John | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1583 Registered: 7-2007 |
Dennis; perhaps you misunderstand the role of the Holy Spirit in our lives versus the role of the law. Consider these verses: "This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" Galatians 3:2 "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." Romans 10:3,4 We all need to ask God Himself to be our Teacher. He did say He would. John 6:45 | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12092 Registered: 12-2003  |
Richard observed the other day that the last verse of Romans 14 defines sin in the new covenant:
This verse is in the context of the strong not holding in contempt the weak in faith, and those who are weak not condemning those who are strong. The focus of the entire passage is handling foods and holy days, and the above verse concludes the discussion. No "moral law" is under discussion, yet Paul clearly says, "Whatever is not from faith is sin." Eating or not eating, observing or not observing—whatever is not of faith is sin. Immorality, honoring parents, and eating crab meat are all evaluated the same way: whatever is not of faith is sin. This definition of sin has nothing to do with the written law but everything to do with the law of Christ. Sin is all sin, and absolutely ANYTHING we do outside of faith in the Lord Jesus and His complete sacrifice on our behalf is sin. Colleen | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 237 Registered: 5-2009 |
Colleen, I have been marking biblical definitions of sin since I started reading the bible all the way through. James 4:17NLT is another: "Remember, it is sin to know what you ought to do and then not do it." The chapter is in the context of our relationship to God & others, to criticizing & condemning others. It also discusses our relationship to the law. Don't mean to hijack the original topic with this. Just it has been interesting to me to see what the bible itself says defines sin rather that what I was taught previously. J9 | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 2174 Registered: 4-2000 |
Asurprise, The Holy Spirit NEVER contradicts the Bible. It is blasphemous to even suggest that God's righteous standards found in the OT are no longer valid for believers. After all, the entire Bible is God's voice speaking to us. Indeed, the Spirit-led life upholds the righteous standards of God in every way. The basic ethics of the OT law are the same as those of the NT gospel. This is why Jesus and the writers of the NT frequently quote the righteous standards found in the OT and affirm them on a continuous basis. It is absolutely not necessary to throw out all of God's righteous standards in the OT in an attempt to get rid of the fourth commandment. There are far better ways to approach the shadows pointing to the Cross than insisting that all moral directives in the OT are now abrogated. The NT nowhere teaches anything even near to this. The law of Christ is the gospel that includes God's righteous standards. Since the Bible refers to sin as "lawlessness," there can be no sin without the moral law that is woven into both the New and Old Testaments. And without sin, there is no need of grace or the gospel. Moreover, the law of Christ is not some new list of do's and don'ts. For example, NINE of the Ten Commandments are restated multiple times in the NT plus other ethical standards from the OT. There is no way to get around this biblical fact. However, man still prefers to believe what he prefers to be true. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 2175 Registered: 4-2000 |
Paul, You are correct in saying that human beings are incapable of perfectly keeping God's holy, righteous standards. So, does this mean we can just surrender our duty of obedience to Christ by totally ignoring the ethical teachings of Scripture--including those found throughout the NT? Does this mean we can simply dishonor our parents because we can't perfectly honor them? Does this mean we can ignore our marital vows because we can't perfectly love our spouses? Truly, we can only be perfect in Christ. For example, the apostle Paul lists numerous moral directives that God's people should obey. Do you think we are free to disobey or ignore those Pauline directives? After all, we can't perfectly keep them anyway. Such reasoning would certainly create unbearable conditions and total chaos in this world. There is an obedience of faith. Galatians 5:19-23 verifies this obedience of faith by specifically listing sins we are to avoid and citing specific results. Truly, the Spirit-led life is not a lawless life--even though God knows that we will stumble and fall on many occasions. We persevere, not because of our strength but because of God's grace that preserves us. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Pnoga Registered user Username: Pnoga Post Number: 440 Registered: 1-2007 |
Dennis, That is the answer, we can only be perfect in Christ. And not that I am perfect, it's that He is perfect. Jesus is all I need. Jesus is my standard, If I have Jesus, the Spirit of Life in Jesus works in me. I know that things I have struggled with have changed in me without any effort from me. I was an angry, depressed, negative person. But now I am peaceful, and more positive than I ever was, and it wasn't because I read any moral codes. I do know that we are led by the Spirit, we are full of God's Love and love fulfills the law, without having to think about it. I agree with what you say, we are not free to sin on this side of Grace, in fact we do not want to, but we do. It's about position. Only God's Grace can change us. The written code causes us to focus on our flesh, it does not work, it only condemns. Paul |
