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Helovesme2
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Posted on Monday, January 03, 2011 - 6:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's fine with me.
Philharris
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Posted on Monday, January 03, 2011 - 7:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here are my morning thoughts on this topic:

My favorite place in Scripture is Romans chapter eight. But first, a ‘little disclaimer’: Paul’s struggle he describes in chapter seven should be kept in mind when in this chapter. In fact, all he teaches leading up to here should be our overall context.

So then, brothers, we are not obligated to the flesh to live according to the flesh, for if you live according to the flesh, you are going to die. But if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. All those led by God’s Spirit are God’s sons. For you did not receive a spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption, by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father!” The Spirit Himself testifies together with our spirit that we are God’s children, and if children, also heirs —heirs of God and coheirs with Christ—seeing that we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him. (Romans 8:12-17 HCSB)


Only those who live according to ‘the flesh’ will die. Obviously, Paul is not talking about physical death, because those who have the Holy Spirit will not die.


So I beg the question, since we do not die when our physical body is in the grave, just where are we?


For I am persuaded that not even death or life, angels or rulers, things present or things to come, (hostile) powers, height or depth, or any other created thing will have the power to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord! Romans 8:38-39 HCSB)


For those indwelt by the Holy Spirit, we will never die anything other than mere physical death because we can never be separated from our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.


We will always exist. At the resurrection we will simply receive a new and perfect physical body that joins our soul and spirit which is secure with Jesus.

PS
Moving this to the open section would be fine with me.


Fearless Phil
Flyinglady
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Posted on Monday, January 03, 2011 - 8:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Move this to the open discussion section.
Diana L
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Posted on Monday, January 03, 2011 - 9:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just curious, is there a stock SDA answer for Eph. 4:8-10 or 1 Peter:3 18-20?

With this teaching of Christ ceasing to exist, is this why the basic Christian creeds (particularly the Apostles Creed) are avoided?

Leigh Anne
Helovesme2
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Posted on Monday, January 03, 2011 - 10:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is an obscure quotation by EGW (in Volume 7a of the SDA Bible Commentary I think) that says that when Jesus died (in the sense of ceased to exist, as SDAs would see it), "God did not die." It always seemed a conundrum to me.
Philharris
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Posted on Monday, January 03, 2011 - 10:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Leigh Anne,I couldn’t find a direct answer to your question at the Adventist Defense League website but notice what did come up:

quote:

(1) Isn't the Seal of God the Holy Spirit as Ephesians 4:30 says?

Let's read it together:

Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Notice the word: WHEREBY

Definition:

–conjunction, adverb
1. by what or by which; under the terms of which.
2. Obsolete. by what? how?

Therefore:

1. By what are ye sealed unto the day of redemption? By the holy Spirit of God.
2. By which are ye sealed unto the day of redemption? By the holy Spirit of God.
3. How are ye sealed unto the day of redemption? By not grieving the holy Spirit of God.

Expressly said, you will be sealed unto the day of redemption by the Holy Spirit of God if you grieve it not.




According to this, salvation is only if we (works)do not grieve the Holy Spirit.

Notice how they change the meaning of Eph. 3:30 by changing who is the active agent in our salvation. And, in doing so, want you to forget the real question. In their definition, our not grieving the Holy Spirit seals us unto the day of redemption, thereby avoiding the issue of the Sabbath versus the Holy Spirit being the seal of our salvation.

When cornered on 1 Peter 3:18-20 they will change the meaning of words and will divert you attention from what the original question was.

Fearless Phil

(Message edited by philharris on January 03, 2011)
Grace_alone
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Posted on Monday, January 03, 2011 - 10:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know what you mean, Phil. In asking a couple of SDA's I've gotten the answer "I've never seen that" (so it MUST not exist!). or "I'll have to study that, but I really have to go to work now". In other words, if Ellen didn't have an answer to that, then it must not be important enough to deal with...

Didn't know if maybe the church had an official position.

:-) Leigh Anne
Dljc
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Posted on Monday, January 03, 2011 - 10:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here's a funny for you all concerning SDA conversations. When I was accused the first time of "wearing out the saints" recently, I quoted Titus 3:9 which says:

But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
(Titus 3:9)

Since that quote the guy has done nothing but start threads about the law. He must not have read the final comment of that verse. Here's the thing, the law is the law. We're either under it or we aren't. Jesus summed it all up in 2 Commands found in Matthew 22:36-40.

This also reminds me of a County Commissioners meeting I went to once, where a guy stated the NRS pertaining to a current situation. (NRS = Nevada Revised Statutes) When the Chair Commissioner asked him "Are you an Attorney?" He replied "No". She replied "Then you aren't really "qualified" to interpret the NRS in question". WHAT!?! I was on the local Planning Board and they gave me a copy of the NRS's pertaining to Planning. I'm no lawyer, but I was given the idea that I was to use them as a guide line, which means I interpreted them. Anyway, didn't mean to get off track here SDA's seem to look at Ellen as their "Attorney" in interpreting Scripture.
Jeremy
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Posted on Monday, January 03, 2011 - 11:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Leigh Anne,

Here is the official SDA answer for 1 Peter 3:18-22 from the General Conference's Biblical Research Institute: http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/documents/1%20Peter%203.pdf

I didn't read the whole thing, but I noticed that they want to compare the passage to 2 Peter 2:4-5, and yet they ignore the fact that that passage says that the angels were cast into hell (tartarus) and instead they claim the "prison" is merely "symbolic"!

Jeremy

(Message edited by Jeremy on January 03, 2011)
Helovesme2
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Posted on Monday, January 03, 2011 - 11:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Phil, when I brought up that verse, I was told, yes, the Holy Spirit seals you, but he can't seal you till you're perfected (just as you don't sign/seal a letter till you're done with it), and anyway the Holy Spirit is the one that DOES the sealing, but WITH something else.

The something else then pointed to was the Sabbath, since the Sabbath commandment contains all the elements of a kingly seal. Here's a link to how the Standish brothers explain that seal they see in that commandment:

quote:

Since the Ten Commandments are a transcript of God’s character it comes as no surprise to discover that they contain the seal of the living God. While some commandments contain God’s name, the fourth commandment alone contains all three elements.

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lordthy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. (Exodus 20:8—11)

Those elements of the seal of God are found in verse 11: God’s name—the Lord; His authority—made (Creator), His region of governance—heaven and earth, the sea and all that in them is.

There is a most important reason why the seal of the living God is located in the fourth commandment. This commandment commences,

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. (Exodus 20:8)

There is only one manner in which we can truly keep God’s Sabbath and that is in holiness. In order to keep the Sabbath holy, men must themselves be holy. If one has stolen a hundred dollars during the week and has not confessed that sin nor made restitution, no matter how earnestly that individual may worship the Lord on the holy Sabbath day, he has not kept the Sabbath day holy. It is little wonder that the Jews referred to Friday as the preparation day. It was a day to examine each heart and make right any wrongs so that the Sabbath could be kept in holiness unto the Lord.

Thus the Sabbath is the key to obedience to God’s law, for it is only as we obey each one of the other nine commandments that we can keep the Sabbath holy. The Sabbath commandment with its intrinsic call to a holy life is the only commandment which centers on our total character. Thus it was most appropriate that God placed His seal within this commandment, for the seal of the living God is Christ’s character within the heart.
Two Beasts, Etc, Chapter 23


Looking for further stuff about what SDAs teach about Sunday Law or the Sabbath as the Seal of God? Check out any of the links on this page.
Heretic
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Posted on Monday, January 03, 2011 - 1:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I wonder if any of you have any thoughts on how since leaving the SDA church the belief in an actual human spirit that exists apart from the body may have changed your view on abortion. Or maybe it hasn't?

For me, it has tremendously, though I don't think one even has to be a Christian to believe that abortion is wrong. It's just that when I've discussed this with my SDA relatives they really don't seem to have strong feelings about it either way and I'm afraid that's where I was at one time.

I'm not trying to veer this into a rabbit trail but it does make you realize how this doctrine of the soul affects other positions and doctrines. Original sin and what it means to be "born again" also come to mind.
Jeremy
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Posted on Monday, January 03, 2011 - 1:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

By the way, regarding the issue of Jesus Christ ceasing to exist when He died, here are some quotes which show that this is the official SDA teaching:


quote:

"Sinners will never comprehend what Jesus' death meant to the Godhead. From eternity He had been with His Father and the Spirit. They had lived as coeternal, coexistent in utter self-giving and love for one another.

[...]

"Christ became man to die for the race. He valued selflessness more than self-existence." (Seventh-day Adventists Believe: An exposition of the fundamental beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist Church (Second Edition, copyright 2005), chapter 2, "The Godhead.")

"e. Christ's promise to the thief. Christ promised the thief at the cross "'Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise'" (Luke 23:43). Paradise obviously is synonymous with heaven (2 Cor. 12:4; Rev. 2:7). As the translated text reads, Christ would go to heaven that Friday to be in the very presence of God, and so would the thief. Yet on Resurrection morning Christ Himself said to Mary as she fell at His feet to worship Him, "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God" (John 20:17, KJV). That Christ remained in the grave over the weekend is indicated by the words of the angel: "'Come, see the place where the Lord lay'" (Matt. 28:6)." (Seventh-day Adventists Believe ... A Biblical Exposition of 27 Fundamental Doctrines (First Edition, Copyright 1988), Chapter 25, "Death and Resurrection," Footnote 7 e.)

"<SB 17 (John 10:18). All of Christ Remained in Tomb. <EB--Jesus said to Mary, "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father." When He closed His eyes in death upon the cross, the soul of Christ did not go at once to heaven, as many believe, or how could His words be true--"I am not yet ascended to my Father"? The spirit of Jesus slept in the tomb with His body, and did not wing its way to heaven, there to maintain a separate existence, and to look down upon the mourning disciples embalming the body from which it had taken flight. All that comprised the life and intelligence of Jesus remained with His body in the sepulcher; and when He came forth it was as a whole being; He did not have to summon His spirit from heaven. He had power to lay down His life and to take it up again (3SP 203, 204)." (Ellen G. White, S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 5, page 1150, paragraph 6.)

"I say unto thee today, Thou shalt be with Me in Paradise. Christ did not promise that the thief should be with Him in Paradise that day. He Himself did not go that day to Paradise. He slept in the tomb, and on the morning of the resurrection He said, "I am not yet ascended to My Father." John 20:17. But on the day of the crucifixion, the day of apparent defeat and darkness, the promise was given. "Today" while dying upon the cross as a malefactor, Christ assures the poor sinner, Thou shalt be with Me in Paradise." (The Desire of Ages, page 751, paragraph 3.)

"Only the Father Could Release Christ.—He who died for the sins of the world was to remain in the tomb the allotted time. He was in that stony prison house as a prisoner of divine justice. He was responsible to the Judge of the universe. He was bearing the sins of the world, and His Father only could release Him. A strong guard of mighty angels kept watch over the tomb, and had a hand been raised to remove the body, the flashing forth of their glory would have laid him who ventured powerless on the earth.

"There was only one entrance to the tomb, and neither human force nor fraud could tamper with the stone that guarded the entrance. Here Jesus rested during the Sabbath. But prophecy had pointed out that on the third day Christ would rise from the dead. Christ Himself had assured His disciples of this. 'Destroy this temple,' He said, 'and in three days I will raise it up.' Christ never committed sin, neither was guile found in His mouth. His body was to come forth from the tomb untarnished by corruption (MS 94, 1897)." (Ellen G. White, S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 5, 1114.1-2.)

"The women who had been Christ's humble followers while He lived, would not leave Him until they saw Him laid in the tomb and a stone of great weight placed before the door, lest His enemies should seek to obtain His body. But they need not have feared; for I saw that the angelic host watched with untold interest in the resting place of Jesus, earnestly waiting for the command to act their part in liberating the King of glory from His prison house." (Early Writings, 180.2.)

"To the honor and glory of God, His beloved Son—the Surety, the Substitute—was delivered up and descended into the prisonhouse of the grave. The new tomb enclosed Him in its rocky chambers. If one single sin had tainted His character the stone would never have been rolled away from the door of His rocky chamber, and the world with its burden of guilt would have perished. But it was only for a little while the divine Vanquisher seemed the vanquished. The serpent had bruised the heel, but Christ could not be holden by death. The stone was rolled away. The Lord Jesus walked forth from His prison house a triumphant, majestic conqueror, and proclaimed over the rent sepulcher of Joseph, 'I am the resurrection and the life' (John 11:25).—Ms. 81, 1893, p. 11. (Diary entry for Sunday, July 2, 1893, Wellington, New Zealand.) White Estate Washington, D. C. April 27, 1981" (Manuscript Releases, Volume 10, 385.1.)

"Now, priests and rulers, where is the power of your guard? Brave soldiers that have never been afraid of human power are now as captives taken without sword or spear. The face they look upon is not the face of mortal warrior; it is the face of the mightiest of the Lord's host. This messenger is he who fills the position from which Satan fell. It is he who on the hills of Bethlehem proclaimed Christ's birth. The earth trembles at his approach, the hosts of darkness flee, and as he rolls away the stone, heaven seems to come down to the earth. The soldiers see him removing the stone as he would a pebble, and hear him cry, Son of God, come forth; Thy Father calls Thee. They see Jesus come forth from the grave, and hear Him proclaim over the rent sepulcher, 'I am the resurrection, and the life.' As He comes forth in majesty and glory, the angel host bow low in adoration before the Redeemer, and welcome Him with songs of praise." (The Desire of Ages, 779.3)




And SDA scholar Edward Heppenstall puts it all together in his (deceptively-titled) book The Man Who Is God, and gives us a clear exposition of the SDA teaching on this:


quote:

"In the council of peace it was the Father's plan that Christ should die and rise again for the redemption of sinners. At the same time Jesus Himself chose this, with no constraint but that of love. The Father reawakened Him to life and to divine consciousness at the resurrection. Had not the Father raised Him, Christ would have forever remained quiescent in the tomb.

Ellen White makes two significant statements on this:

When Christ was crucified, it was His human nature that died. Deity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible.—The SDA Bible Commentary, Ellen G. White Comments, on Mark 16:6, p. 1113.

This does not mean that Christ's deity was conscious while in the tomb and ultimately brought about His own resurrection of the body. Such a thing would have made Christ's death unreal, and the whole sacrifice of the Son of God a deception by having a human body that died while His deity remained consciously alive.

All that comprised the life and intelligence of Jesus remained with His body in the sepulcher.—ELLEN G. WHITE, The Spirit o f Prophecy, vol. 3, p. 204.

He who died for the sins of the world was to remain in the tomb the allotted time. He was in that stony prison house as a prisoner of divine justice. He was responsible to the judge of the universe. He was bearing the sins of the world, and His Father only could release Him.—The SDA Bible Commentary, Ellen G. White Comments, on Mark 16:6, p. 1114. (Italics supplied.)

How, then, do we harmonize the many texts affirming that God the Father resurrected His Son from the dead, and the two texts that give Christ a part in His own resurrection? The Father by His power reawakened the Son to life. That life that was in Christ and belonged to Him was restored to consciousness by the act of the Father. All members of the Godhead were involved in His resurrection. Christ then came forth from the tomb by the life that was in Himself." (Edward Heppenstall, The Man Who Is God, Chapter 5, "The Center of Christ's Consciousness.") http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/mangod/manch5.htm




And what exactly was this "life" that was still in Christ if there was no consciousness? In other words, it was a dead "life"? What an oxymoron! But they must come up with these crazy-making ideas in order to hold onto their heresy of Jesus ceasing to exist when He died.

Jeremy

(Message edited by Jeremy on January 03, 2011)
Colleentinker
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Posted on Monday, January 03, 2011 - 1:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Heretic, He, Asurprise, Leigh Anne, is it OK with you if we move this thread to the open section? We need the permission of everyone who's posted here before we move it!

Thanks!
Colleen
Colleentinker
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Posted on Monday, January 03, 2011 - 1:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jeremy, thank you for that collection of quotes. Very useful...thank you!

Adventists believe in a false Jesus.

Colleen
Grace_alone
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Posted on Monday, January 03, 2011 - 1:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen, yes! Please move this thread over to the open discussion section.

:-) Leigh Anne
Heretic
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Posted on Monday, January 03, 2011 - 2:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, yup, affirmative.
Cortney
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Posted on Monday, January 03, 2011 - 2:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If Jesus 'ceased to exist'- how did He accomplish conquering death and sin? What is there reasoning on that? SDA's argue the point that Jesus said He had not ascended- so therefor that is their 'proof' of soul-sleep, yet- the bible also states that Jesus cried: "Father, into your hands I commend my spirit,"- how do you reconcile that? If Jesus was 'ceased to exist' and the soul is not separate from the body (as SDA's teach)- how could Jesus possibly ask God to receive His spirit? Given that Jesus knows more about the afterlife than EGW and her followers. It almost makes Jesus seem like a liar.. Didn't Jesus also say to the disciples: "Look at my hands and feet; see that it is I myself. Touch me and see; for a ghost does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."-Luke 24:39 I believe Jesus told Mary something to the effect of : "Do not hold on to me, because I have not ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and sisters and say to them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' John 20:17 - To me I interpret this as Jesus telling Mary "Do not cling/hold to me"-perhaps because Mary was afraid of losing Jesus again, she didn't have an understanding of the resurrection. If Jesus didn't fully ascend to heaven, the Holy Spirit could not come.
Sharon3
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Posted on Monday, January 03, 2011 - 3:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow!! I go away from my computer for 2 days and all this happens. This in incredible. Thank you Jeremy for all you said. That was POWERFUL!

Yes, Colleen, move it to the open discussion.
Sharon3
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Posted on Monday, January 03, 2011 - 4:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Remember how we had to memorize John 3:16? Well it says if we believe in Him, we WILL NOT PERISH. What an ah ha. How did we over look that?
Colleentinker
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Posted on Monday, January 03, 2011 - 4:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cortney, Hec, and Asurprise...do we have your permission to move this thread to the open section?

If anyone else posts here for the first time, could you please include your permission to move the thread if that's OK with you?

Thanks!
Colleen
Cortney
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Posted on Monday, January 03, 2011 - 5:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

you have my permission :-)
Skeeter
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Posted on Monday, January 03, 2011 - 7:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

you can move it where ever you feel best :-)
River
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Posted on Monday, January 03, 2011 - 8:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Moveit.
Honestwitness
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Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2011 - 5:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

These quotes shared by Jeremy demonstrate the confusion of Adventist teachings. God is not the author of confusion.

If we decide not to move this thread to the discussion area, then we should start a new one over there on this topic. I'll do that, if we don't feel this thread should be moved in its entirety. Then we can repost whichever of our comments we feel safe having all the world see.
Hec
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Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2011 - 12:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, of course you have my permission. I did not realize you were waiting for my reply. Thanks for the courtesy.

Hec
Asurprise
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Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2011 - 12:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Certainly, you have my permission too. :-)

(I almost missed this because I don't read everything.)
Colleentinker
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Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2011 - 5:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey, all--we've moved this thread to the open section from the member's section. I'd like to invite everyone to scroll back and read the archive as well; it's been a really great discussion!

Colleen

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