| Author | Message | ||
| Alison1 Registered user Username: Alison1 Post Number: 15 Registered: 10-2010 |
I sure hope that no one will be offended by this topic. But it is one that I feel must be addressed. During the time that I was in the SDA denomination I would have unsolicited encounters with the JWs. Many times I questioned why are they targeting me. I did some research and found out that there is a very strong correlation between the two. If you go to the history of Jehovah's Witnesses, You'll find that they share alot of the same doctrines. Charles Taze Russell(the founder) had studied with the Adventists in the early days of Adventism. In fact he knew Nathan Barbour(that name should sound familiar among Adventists). This explains why they share alot of the same teachings. I will provide the links that show this on the next post. | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 1078 Registered: 7-2005  |
I grew up in the Presbyterian church and right next door was a JW church. Our Presbyterian pastor once told me that the JW pastor would regularly visit him and try to convert him to the JW doctrine. That strategy - proselytizing folks who are already Christians - is exactly what SDAs do. They don't seek out the lost. They seek to convert folks who are already Christians to their sect. That, to me, is a sure sign of a cult. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1611 Registered: 7-2007 |
This might be a little off topic, but yesterday, I had a visit by two older J.Witnesses. I invited them in and we quickly got into a discussion. Their faces were the same way, I described of the older Adventists at that Camp Meeting - sad, with dark countenances. I tried to point out how their "translation" wasn't a real translation. I tried to point out verses that show that Jesus is God. (Their "translation" has been altered to take out any reference that shows that.) I would have liked to point out that they have more than one "god," rather than Christians because their "translation" mistranslates John 1:1 to say: "...and the Word was a god" rather than what the real Bible says: "and the Word was God." I would have like to have pointed out that Greek doesn't have an indefinite article, so it COULDN'T be translated "a god." And I would have liked to point out that they have more than one "god" if they think that Jesus is a separate "god." They used as a "proof text" the fact that on the TV show "Jeopardy;" the host (who's a J. Witness himself) had as an answer that their version "The New World Translation" is the most accurate of all the translations! But they were suddenly in a hurry to leave, saying they'd left someone sitting in the car. I would have liked to have closed with prayer, but they were in horror at the thought of praying to "three Gods" the way they seem to think that Christians do. (I should have OPENED in prayer in the name of Jehovah.) I feel so sorry for them, stuck in a cult that they so firmly believe in.  (I've heard that J.Witnesses have the same roots as Adventists, but I don't know anything about that.) | ||
| Alison1 Registered user Username: Alison1 Post Number: 16 Registered: 10-2010 |
First off, I need to make a correction on my first post. One the name of Nathan Barbour is Nelson Barbour and second off, he was part of the Advent Christian Church. Here are the links I promised you. www.4jehovah.org look under beliefs and history www.cftf.com/online/1998.AprJun12.html www.catholic.com/library/History_of_the_Jehovah_Witnesses.asp I also found it too ironic how much Seventh day Adventism has influenced some of the teachings of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Such as the state of the dead, the Godhead, the study of Daniel and Revelation, the unbelief in the trinity, Jesus being the archangel Michael, etc. I sure that there are others if we look closely. If you are familiar with Mormonism, you’ll find some interesting parallels between the Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses as well. But that is an entirely different discussion for another time. | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 785 Registered: 8-2008 |
Asurprise, that is a great story. Also, I wonder what would happen if you point out to JW's that Hebrew has no "J" sound, so the name Jehovah is only an English derivation of Yahweh. | ||
| Alison1 Registered user Username: Alison1 Post Number: 18 Registered: 10-2010 |
Asurprise, I wanted to reply to your last statement that you made. Yes, Jehovah's Witnesses do share the same roots as the Adventists. Both of them came out of the Millerite Movement. And of course there are others, like the old WCG and others. | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 866 Registered: 7-2004 |
I love reading memoirs, and especially of those who escaped from bad religions! (I wonder why?)  Anyway, I have read one called "Out of the Shadows, Finding God's Truth in a World of Deception" by J. Thomas Lapacka. It is fascinating, and I would be happy to mail it to anyone who is interested. It is about escaping from the World Wide Church of God and there are a lot of similarities I have found with the sda religion, especially the mindset of "having the truth". Just post your email if you want it. | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 867 Registered: 7-2004 |
Also, my father used to have an sda book that was specifically made to answer all the JW's interpretations with an sda interpretation!! Whew! Back then I thought it was a good thing to have in case they stopped by, but now I see it would be like showing them how our bad apples are better than their bad oranges. I don't remember the name of the book though, it would be interesting to see it from my new perspective! | ||
| Psalm107v2 Registered user Username: Psalm107v2 Post Number: 799 Registered: 10-2008  |
LDS, SDA & JW are an unholy of trinity of cults. They all have similar roots and unfortunately use many of the same tactics | ||
| Alison1 Registered user Username: Alison1 Post Number: 20 Registered: 10-2010 |
Bb,I think I remember that book the sda's had about the JWs. And Psalm107v2, I love the new trinity idea of the LDS, SDA & JW. And an unholy one of that. I, too, enjoy reading about people who have escaped from bad religious experiences. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12150 Registered: 12-2003  |
That's good, Enoch! Ha! It is interesting to me how the three mimic Christianity in many ways. There are many cults that don't pretend to be "Christian"...but these three appeal to people with Christian "leanings". I received a really moving letter today from a prisoner who became a born-again Christian in 2001 while incarcerated. It's clear in the letter that he really is a Christian. In 2005 he completed some Amazing Facts Bible lessons in prison and requested more information from a local SDA church. The local pastor began visiting him regularly. The guy asked lots of questions but felt guarded because the pastor never spoke about salvation by grace alone. Finally one day he asked the pastor why the law was so important to Adventists. The pastor answered lengthily, focussing on the fourth, and the guy said it sounded almost like the law was necessary for salvation. But then the pastor said, "Of course, we're saved by grace alone." At that point the prisoner requested membership. He said the Adventist services at his present facility began to disturb him because he never heard the gospel preached, and within the last year, he stopped attending. Recently he found an article in a publication that gave the history of Hannukah. He read the history of the Macabees and the history of the oil lasting for eight days when they only had enough for one. He also read how the temple was cleansed of the pig being offered on the altar exactly 1290 days after the desecration. He wrote, "I saw that a day does not always equal a year, and if the Adventists are wrong about 1844, what else are they wrong about?" Someone gave him a copy of the July-Sept. issue of Proclamation, and he found some interesting insights into the scapegoat in the Letters to the Editor. He said his Bible is marked according to his Adventist studies, and he finds himself reading and confused. He's asking for some help from someone who could write to him and help him extricate himself from Adventism. He said that he knows now his discomfort with the Adventist services was the Holy Spirit letting him know that all was not right. It was really a moving letter, and I realized again two things: Adventism is very subtle and deceptive and catches "baby Christians" and puts them in bondage. Second, I realized again that the Holy Spirit really does guard our hearts and protect those who are alive in Christ. He "bothers" us when we move towards error, and we need to be committed to knowing Scripture and listening when something seems opposed to the gospel, because the Holy Spirit does redirect us back to truth. These cults are so dangerous! Colleen | ||
| Gcfrankie Registered user Username: Gcfrankie Post Number: 741 Registered: 1-2007 |
Colleen, I hope someone sends this person an new bible that is unmarked so he can put his own markings in it. The one I would suggest would be "The Inductive Study Bible' where at the beginning of each chapter is the theme that you fill in after reading that chapter. I have one and it is an NASB so I don't know if they come in any other publishing. He does not have to do all the other markings they call for but it does help. It also has a big enough margine to write in your thoughts. I know for me I had to get rid of the bible that I used as an sda with all its marking in it. Oh yes! those in prision are very ripe for their picking. When I was SDA we had a pastor who did prison ministries. | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 246 Registered: 5-2009 |
Colleen, It would be my great pleasure to gift this man with a new bible - whatever his heart desires, leather binding, study helps, plain soft-cover, whatever translation - his choice. I am passionate about people reading the whole word of God. ~J9 | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1846 Registered: 6-2006  |
About 15 years ago I took a Bible study from Peter Barnes, a former Jehovah's Witness. He was a wonderful teacher with an amazing story, and wrote books on his experiences and studies. This is his book on the trinity ~ http://www.challengemin.org/graphics/trinitybookcomplete.pdf And his book about JW doctrine ~ http://www.challengemin.org/graphics/InLightOfEntireBook.pdf Those are complete books if anyone is interested. Leigh Anne | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 249 Registered: 5-2009 |
Leigh Ann, Thank you SO much for posting these books. I am going to print them out. I began studying the cults this spring because 2 Mormon women are coming to our bible study. BUT God led me to study SDAism more than Mormonism & I came to see it as a cult too. The teaching about the trinity I know is very corrupt in mormonism. They teach that Jesus is a brother of satan & was 'elevated' or 'became a god'. Their bible even inserts the word 'a' into John 1:1-3. I will have this for these ladies if the opportunity presents. I believe these ladies are like me, sincere believers who believe they believe in the true Jesus without really knowing what their denomination really teaches, & without having read the entire word of God for themselves, with the Holy Spirit teaching. God is wooing them & drawing them. They are in the Word, doing their lessons & a real blessing in our class. They seem open & teachable. Our bible study topic for this whole year is The Life & Ministry of Jesus. I am praying they find the true Jesus. These books are a great resource for that 'unholy trinity of cults' as Enoch put it! J9 | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1847 Registered: 6-2006 |
J9, You're welcome! I still remember much of what I learned from Peter. After he left the JW's he joined a Baptist seminary and went on to receive an honorary doctorate in divinity. He's got an audio file here http://mmoutreach.org/audio_jw.htm (towards the bottom of the page). This site also has information on Mormonism. I found that when I study the cults and who Jesus is NOT, I learn so much more about who He is. Leigh Anne | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3537 Registered: 10-2004  |
J9, Actually, it is the Jehovah's Witnesses (not the Mormons) whose "translation" says "a god" in John 1:1. It is the New World Translation. Mormons generally use the King James Version. Jeremy | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 250 Registered: 5-2009 |
Thanks Jeremy for helping me keep it straight. ~J9 | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1622 Registered: 7-2007 |
After I got baptized after learning that Adventism was a cult, I marked passages in my new Bible that show that the SDA church is false. Passages like Leviticus 20:24-26 that show the real reason God told Israel not to eat those meats. Instead of "health laws" they represented separation from the unclean peoples around them. (I also highlighted where Peter told the Gentiles in Acts 10, "God has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean," after God had given him that vision about the unclean animals.) And passages such as Colossians 2:16,17 where it says ALL the various Sabbaths were shadow of Christ; Hebrews 6:19,20 & Hebrews 9:12,25 & Hebrews 10:12 that show that Jesus had gone ALREADY into the Most Holy Place in Heaven. And lots of other passages.... It's so clear to me now, thanks to the Lord!!!!! | ||
| Gcfrankie Registered user Username: Gcfrankie Post Number: 744 Registered: 1-2007 |
Leigh Ann, I read the first book through and I had forgotten many of the things I heard from them when I did some study with them before becoming a SDA (eons ago). What I find uncanny about the JW's is if you tell them you are SDA they can not get away from you fast enough and they never come back. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1848 Registered: 6-2006 |
Gail, I wonder why that is? I mean, why would they want to run away? This also makes me wonder, what kind of personalities are drawn to JW or SDA churches? I can kind of see how people are drawn to Mormonism ~ family oriented, always clean-cut, super happy, nice people (which is deceptive in itself). However they are also high profile, and when I was dating I knew enough about them to stay away. On the other hand, JW's and SDA members tend to fly low on the radar, and appear to be more serious, reserved people who seem to blend into the background. What drew you to the SDA church? What did you appreciate most, and what made you comfortable enough to join? Leigh Anne | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1626 Registered: 7-2007 |
I've heard that the suicide rate amongst Mormons is the highest of all the cults. Is that true? As for myself, I don't know what kind of people are drawn to the cults because I was raised in one. I think it's just that people don't know their Bibles and they want to be right with God and then a Mormon/JW comes to their door, or they receive a "Revelation" pamphlet in the mail (SDA), that promises to answer ALL their questions.... Anyway, I think that's how people get in the cults... | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 251 Registered: 5-2009 |
My brother's opinion was that SDAism attracts certain personality types. That comment has stuck with me & I've pondered it through the years. Seems to me that the more creative types, free spirit kinds of people are not so much found in SDAism. I think they rebel & say I'm outta here - who cares?! There are more options to life than doctor, preacher, teacher, nurse. Those interested in the arts, dance, inventing, business entrepreneurs, how many are there in SDAism? SDAism is very limiting for life work. It's more the policeman, law & order types, black & white with no gray, right & wrong sorts. Oohh as I'm typing this I have no intention of being critical or offensive to or about any type of people. I grew up 3rd generation in the world HQ. My life was run by 'what will they think? what will they say?' We had better conform to the expectations & appear as we were supposed to be. I was very much one of the conforming, legalistic, black or white sorts. People who are attracted to SDAism - do they want answers? To be told what is right, what to think & be, what to believe, & what to do? I fear for people who are not into the Word of God for themselves, no matter whether SDA, JW, LDS, or any other Christian. J9 | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 8896 Registered: 3-2004  |
When I was in Yosemite last March and met my JW friend, Leticia, she told me she was JW. I let her know that I had been raised sda. Yet later on in the day when she saw me she threw her arms around me like a long lost friend and wanted her husband to take a picture of us for her daughter (??). She did not run when I mentioned I had been sda!! Our awesome God had a reason for us meeting and I am so thankful for that. I am sure I will hear a voice in heaven yell out, "Hey Lopez, I remember you last name, but not your first. It is so good to see you here. Here is the daughter I wanted the picture for." Diana L | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12156 Registered: 12-2003 |
J9--perhaps converts to Adventism have a personality profile, but those born into it really cover the bases. Music is HUGE in Adventism; there are a lot of highly intelligent, creative, artistic and musical Adventists. There's not much "official" outlet for dance, but definitely the creative ones are there. And there are actually quite a lot of entrepreneurial types, too. ASI, ADventist-layman's Services and Industries, is a huge organization of self-employed Adventist businesspeople. It covers all sorts of businesses, including medical professionals who have incorporated their practices, but ASI is one of the big money-making organization for the SDA church. My experience in Adventist circles was that a great many Adventists are not black and white at all. They live in shades of gray, where there is no absolute truth and everything is up for rationalizing in a setting of mutual mental massaging. Adventists, though, do tend to be OCD and addictive personality-types often. They live with anxiety because nothing really makes sense, and the great controversy worldview that shapes their view of life is always there reminding them that they're not "observant" or really "good". I think that converts to Adventism tend to be insecure or driven to be "Right". They also are often lonely--as are converts to the other cults as well. They get "love-bombed" as a means of getting them to join. They also tend to be Christians without a firm grounding in Scripture. So yes, I do think there are personality types that are attracted to the various cults, but I think those types may be more shaped by the cults' values or by the "victim's" emotional needs than anything. JW's discourage higher education, living instead for intense "witnessing". Mormons are about big business and politics; they own many large corporations: RC Cola, Spreckles Sugar, etc etc. Adventists are all about medicine and para-medical professions. Adventists especially, of the three, push higher education. It's true that Mormons have a university, but think about what Adventists push their kids to do after academy: go to college immediately. Mormons go on a two-year mission, then come back. (Mormon boys go on missions at age 18; girls go at 20.) JWs tend not to go to college at all. It's all quite interesting; there's a cult for every social strata! Colleen | ||
| Gcfrankie Registered user Username: Gcfrankie Post Number: 747 Registered: 1-2007 |
Leigh Ann, in my case of joining the sda church came from being raised in a hell fire and damnation (staunch) presbytarian church with a lot of shouting of the sermons (back in the 40's). I left not only the church but religion in my teens. Quite frankly I was afraid of it. The church was small that I was raised in and when I tried going back years later after I was married all I could find were large churches and felt like a fish out of water. I got bible studies from Amazing Facts and then had a visit from some sda's and attended church with them and felt comfortable as it was a small and calming church. In fact the church had been an old funeral home. Did I truely know anything from the bible, NO, but somewhere deep in the recesses of my mind would pop up things I did learn as a child and I think that is why I could not get deeply embroiled in EGW's books and teachings. Also I had started reading the bible beginning (as I was taught) at Genesis and was into the book of Exodus and the 10's and was ripe for their picking. For many years I stuck with their text proofing and then God started knocking on my heart to branch out which I did and the rest is history. Gail |
