| Author | Message | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 382 Registered: 6-2008 |
One of my all-time favorites from childhood to this time is "His Eye is on the Sparrow." How I love that beautiful song! When asked to sing a solo, I often think of it immediately. Another fave is "How Great Thou Art;" I sang that a couple of months ago for the residents of a convalescent hospital. Another is "The Love of God is greater far than tongue or pen can ever tell. It goes beyond the highest star and reaches to the lowest hell. . ." I used to enjoy hearing Del Delker sing this so many years ago. The only SDA CD I still have is "Generations," by the Melashenko Family Singers; I found it in a thrift store some time ago and I still enjoy it. The lyrics, all on the insert, are entirely non-offensive (no SDA distinctives expressed or implied in them). | ||
| Stevew Registered user Username: Stevew Post Number: 19 Registered: 2-2010 |
Cloudwatcher, please forgive my SDA ignorance (I'm still 'transitioning'), but isn't that just the Noah/Ark/Flood story?? What is SDA about it? Steve | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 277 Registered: 5-2009 |
Steve, Please check out the thread "The Foreword to The Bible Story Books by Arthur S Maxwell." It is about what I found about the story of the flood, in the bible vs in the bible story books. If you have the books, read the bible account first. Then read the bible story books account. Let us know what you think. J9 | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 379 Registered: 5-2009  |
Stevew, no need to apologize. I learn something on this forum every time I get on. Check out the biblical account in Genesis 6-9. God tells Noah to build an Ark for his family and himself. There's no mention of Noah warning the people that it's going to start raining and they should seek refuge in the ark. There's also no story about the people trying to bang on the door to get in (it's plausible but it's not in the Bible). EGW is the one that tells the story that the song is based on. This story is told in this way to children (in Sabbath School lessons and "Bible" story books). It's the beginnings, the foundation, for future teachings on the REMNANT doctrine. The message is, enter the ark of safety (even if what we're saying sounds crazy...like Noah saying it was going to rain), be a part of the remnant church or you will be lost. Clever, but unbiblical. In all fairness, I did some Take 6 lyrics research and didn't find much else worth sharing. I didn't want to be nitpicky...though I did see some things that had a different meaning to me when I listened to them before,....and because of their SDA background, I wonder if they meant what I thought back then or what it sounds like they mean now...who knows. It's all very subjective. Furthermore, SDAs are masters at double-talk, so you can never really know what they mean. And THAT'S enough reason for me not to want to listen to their religious music anymore. | ||
| Karethamiller Registered user Username: Karethamiller Post Number: 174 Registered: 8-2010  |
Cloudwatcher...I remember in elementary school (SDA) listening to the Uncle Dan & Aunt Sue dramatization of the Noah/Flood/Ark story. Apparently it was very strongly rooted in EGW. Sigh...one more thing God will have to purge from my mind. It feels like I never stop discovering new erroneous information in my brain! | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1874 Registered: 6-2006  |
This is very much like the SDA hymnal which changed a lot of hymns to fit SDA doctrine. Even some of the Christmas hymns weren't safe. Leigh Anne | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 380 Registered: 5-2009 |
Proclamation! had a story about the changing of the hymn lyrics to fit SDA doctrine. It blew my mind the first time I read it. Here is the link. See pg. 8. http://lifeassuranceministries.org/Proclamation2005_JanFeb.pdf | ||
| Stevew Registered user Username: Stevew Post Number: 20 Registered: 2-2010 |
Well, I'll be a monkeys uncle!! You do learn something every day, don't you! I was sure that Noah had preached, trying to encourage others to join him in the ark, but you're right, absolutely no mention of it. I guess that in itself is not super-important, but it definitely raises questions as to what else we've been spoon-fed over the years, doesn't it!! In Take 6's defence, I don't think they wrote that song... Probably just regurgitating it like every other SDA....including me.  | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 381 Registered: 5-2009 |
Stevew, I like to encourage SDAs to take this quiz I created so they can SEE how much we were spoonfed and just assumed was in the Bible. Check it out and tell me your score! http://www.quibblo.com/quiz/c03AIzI/What-does-the-Bible-say There are several more Bible stories that were altered. I'll try to find that thread for you or post it here....after you tell me your score.  | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 733 Registered: 7-2004  |
Music is a powerful means of conveying messages. We sing along and repeat ideas over and over again. If the message is true and accurate, the power of music is a great benefit to us. But theological errors can be encouraged just as easily. As I came to understand the distinction between the True Gospel and the counterfeit, works-based gospel there were songs and musicians (not just SDAs) to whom I quit listening. I love contemporary praise music, but not all of it has good theology. Some beautiful songs have really bad theology. I would be just as hesitant to listen to an SDA musician as I would an SDA pastor's sermon. | ||
| Stevew Registered user Username: Stevew Post Number: 21 Registered: 2-2010 |
Cloudwatcher, I took the test and scored 13% !! Unbelievable. I answered the Noah question wrong on purpose, as that's what I understood only a couple of days ago... I think I have some un-studying to do. | ||
| Karethamiller Registered user Username: Karethamiller Post Number: 175 Registered: 8-2010 |
Stevew...I'm right there with you on how much stuff I'm having to "un-learn." So many things are ingrained deeply into my understanding of life, religion, and God. I predict that God will be showing me new things to un-study for years! | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 389 Registered: 5-2009 |
Steve, here's a good place to start unstudying. This is the answer key to the quiz. 1. See Genesis 3. 2. See Daniel 1. 3. See Genesis 3. 4. See 1 Peter 1:20 5. See John 2:1-12 6. See Genesis 1-3 7. There is no mention of this in the Bible. 8. There is no mention of this in the Bible. See Revelation 2:17 for something similar. 9. There is no mention of this in the Bible. See Hebrews 1:14 to begin studying about angels. 10. See Matthew 2 11. There is no mention of this in the Bible. Furthermore, Jesus has never not been God. 12. Genesis 6 13. Matthew 27 14. Begin reading about the second coming in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 17, and follow the cross references. 15. See 1 Kings 17 Note: All incorrect answers and "Not in the Bible" statements were found in Ellen G. White's writings and other Adventist literature. ***** Also, here are some examples of how SDA doctrine is currently being taught to children. If you were born and raised SDA, you might recognize some of the ways they "tweeked" Scripture to meet their doctrinal objectives. Noah's Ark - the teaching that he preached for 120 years and begged the people to come in and be saved to avoid dying in the flood. This is used to parallel entering the SDA church, the "ark of safety," the "true church" to avoid destruction. (Doctrine = Remnant)http://www.gracelink.net/site/1/Lessons/Kindergarten/2008/Q1/STUDENT/06.pdf Adam and Eve - dressed in robes of light, serpent has wings.http://www.gracelink.net/site/1/Lessons/Kindergarten/2008/Q1/STUDENT/04.pdf Jesus turns the water into Juice "All the juice is gone!" (DOCTRINE = health message) http://www.gracelink.net/site/1/Lessons/Kindergarten/2008/Q2/STUDENT/10.pdf Elijah and the ravens - (Doctrine = health message) -- The ravens don't bring Elijah meat...just bread or generic food. http://www.gracelink.net/site/1/Lessons/Kindergarten/2008/Q3/STUDENT/05.pdf Zaccheus starts doing right FIRST (before meeting Jesus and before being declared saved...be sure to read the EGW reference for this and compare it with the biblical account) http://www.gracelink.net/site/1/Lessons/Kindergarten/2009/Q1/STUDENT/K-09-Q1-06.pdf Jesus promises the thief on the cross that ONE DAY (vs. today, as the Bible states) he would be in heaven http://www.gracelink.net/site/1/Lessons/Kindergarten/2009/Q1/STUDENT/K-09-Q1-12.pdf When Jesus comes, we'll have eyes that can see angels. You will see lots and lots of angels in the clouds. And you will see your special guardian angel who has loved you and taken care of you ever since you were born.†(GUARDIAN ANGEL?!) Note: the Bible never mentions that we have a special, individual guardian angel. http://www.gracelink.net/site/1/Lessons/Kindergarten/2009/Q1/STUDENT/K-09-Q1-13.pdf There are lots of examples of how the Sabbath is taught too (That God gave the Sabbath to Adam and Eve as a gift, a day to spend time with them and reveal all the secrets of creation, etc.) Here's one: http://www.gracelink.net/site/1/Lessons/Kindergarten/2008/Q1/STUDENT/03.pdf | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12313 Registered: 12-2003  |
And there's that subtle but pervasive word, Cloudwatcher..."secrets". Sabbath was a day for secrets to be revealed. How utterly gnostic. Colleen | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 384 Registered: 6-2008 |
I just looked up "Noah" in my Strong's, and then found this in the New Living Translation: "And God did not spare the ancient world--except for Noah and his family of seven. Noah warned the world of God's righteous judgment. Then God destroyed the whole world of ungodly people with a vast flood." 2 Peter 2:5. In several versions (KJV, NIV, NASB), Noah is called "a preacher of righteousness." And perhaps the "guardian angel" belief comes from these verses: "He shall give His angels charge over thee to keep thee in all thy ways." Ps. 91:11, and "Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven." Matt 18:10 (both KJV) I would seriously hesitate to include these items as evidence that EGW (or other SDAs) manufactured doctrines out of thin air. There are plenty of other subjects on which their teachings and comments are clearly not biblical, and which were undeniably twisted, plagiarized, or made up independently! | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 385 Registered: 6-2008 |
May I add that I would not quibble over it, nor would I hesitate to mention it, but the original Greek did not use commas, and SDAs are not the only ones to object to supporting a doctrine (in this case, that of an immediate trip to heaven at death) on the way a single verse (Luke 23:43) is punctuated! Based on the fact that Jesus Himself said to Mary at the sepulchre after the resurrection, "Don't touch Me for I have not yet risen to my Father." (John 20: 17). Since Jesus did NOT go to heaven (Paradise) until later, the crucifixion statement really should have been punctuated to say, "I say unto you today, "Thou shalt be with Me in Paradise." And, yes, I learned this from my SDA classes, but I believe the argument is valid. We can't throw out the baby with the bathwater just because of its parentage! | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 742 Registered: 7-2004 |
One explanation for John 20:17 is that Jesus is saying "no need to cling to me, I am still going to be here for a little while". | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3613 Registered: 10-2004  |
Yenc, First of all, Jesus, as God, was always in Heaven--including during His life on earth and death. He is the infinite, omnipresent God of the universe. He had not yet physically "ascended" to heaven "once and for all" (Greek tense) and told Mary to "stop clinging" (literal Greek) to Him. This had nothing to do with what happened with His spirit when He died, which He released to His Father upon His death (three verses later in Luke 23). Secondly, "Paradise" did not refer to heaven but to "Abraham's Bosom," a section of Hades/Sheol (see Luke 16). Thirdly, it is not just the punctuation that must be changed in the KJV, it is the word order and capitalization also: "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." (Luke 23:43 KJV.) It would make no sense to change only the comma: "Verily I say unto thee Today, shalt thou be with me in paradise." The "shalt" and "thou" also must be reversed. But the fact is that Greek did not need punctuation marks--it reads clearly without them. And what it says, as all (credible) English (and other, ancient) translations read, is that the thief would be with Him in paradise that very day. Also, Luke 23:43 is most certainly not the only verse in the Bible which teaches existence in death--to suggest such a thing is absurd. (See this list, for example.) The bottom line is that, as has been said before, there is no Baby in that bathwater--just filthy water. Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12319 Registered: 12-2003 |
I heard a sermon a while back in which the speaker commented particularly on the Greek construction of Luke 23:43. Greek has no punctuation, of course, but it has extremely precise grammar construction. The speaker was a Greek scholar, and he said that it is impossible for the Greek to be read to say, "I say unto you today, 'thou shalt be with Me in Paradise." He explained the construction of the Greek verbs and modifiers, and I don't remember what he said because it was literally Greek to me—but he said that the construction of the sentence forbade any understanding of the passage except "Today thou shalt be with me in Paradise." And Yenc, Jesus' being separated at death—spirit separated from body—does not qualify Him as being "ascended". He did not ascend until He went as a whole person. He said His spirit went to the Father when He died; that was not just a figure of speech. Rick's explanation above is a legitimate way to understand that passage; I've heard others comment on that passage, too. When a passage in the Bible has been translated the same way for hundreds of years using increasingly ancient and accurate manuscripts, we can't assume that the Adventist argument used to defend one of its unique doctrines is a more valid argument than that of Greek scholars who have studied the text for two millennia. (By the way, it's good to see you again...) Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12320 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jeremy--great post. I didn't see it before I posted! Colleen |
