| Author | Message | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1004 Registered: 7-2004  |
Jim, You appear to be setting up a false dichotomy between proof-texting and reading for the overall tone of Scripture. This leaves out the most valid, at least IMHO, method which is contextual study. A phrase exists within a paragraph within a chapter (yes I realize that the punctuation and chapters are added later, I'm speaking in broad terms here). The plain meaning of a phrase has to be consistent with how that phrase is used within the paragraph. The phrase does not stand alone outside of the immediate literary context. And that is the error of proof-texting, it isn't that individual texts are selected to demonstrate a point. It is that these the meanings of these phrases are used in a different way than their context. For example "a little here a little there" should not be used as an instruction for how to study the Bible because these were words from a curse, not from an instruction in what we should be doing. Trying to simply rely on the overall tone of the Bible interjects a great deal of our emotional reaction to the passages, which is shaped by the factors we experience in this world. We must go more specific than the general tone and examine the passages in their literary context. So I will pose my question again, because it is the Scriptural starting point for the topic. How does the Bible describe the second death, what is it? | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1583 Registered: 7-2003  |
Hec, In reading your post just two down from mine, I am concerned (belatedly) that you may feel I was addressing my remarks directly to you due to my use of the colloquialism "heck". Just in case, I would like to clarify that I did not intend "heck" to be mistaken for "Hec", rather I was attempting to write in a light tone using a euphemism for "Hell" in a tongue and cheek way. I have not read the entire thread so I don't really know what positions you've taken or why. I am merely commenting on how these types of conversations seem to go in my past experience. If you've done a careful exegesis of the all the relevant scripture and come up with a carefully studied position based on sound hermeneutics, then God bless you my friend! This falls in the realm of secondary non-essentials and we should give a good deal of liberty in that category. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12599 Registered: 12-2003  |
Wait a minute! I return after a day of obtaining and helping to install a wall of bookcases so we can properly store a growing collection of original SDA books we've received from the estate of a former Adventists' parents, and I find that once again HELL has gotten out of control! Animal and Hec (and everyone else), you know you're part of the family and dearly loved here...regardless of how you understand hell. I've been debating if and how to share something here, and just now I realize I'm going to share it on this thread. I believe that Chris was right in his post above...and that what he said dovetails with what Rick is saying about believing Scripture. First I'll make my point; then I'll give my experience that has helped me shape my understanding. Here's what I've come to know: If we are going to find peace and experience that Sabbath rest we've come to embrace, we have to give up expecting God to be what we think He's supposed to be. Moreover, we have to give up our expectation that He will do for us what we think needs to be done. Here's my experience. I spent the first four months of this year in a state of growing uncertainty after two abnormal mammograms, an inconclusive ultrasound, and an abnormal MRI. With each abnormal test the confusion and uncertainty grew, and the docs kept upping the ante as they struggled to ascertain what these radiology studies were revealing. Finally, toward the end of March, my doctor called me as she was looking at my MRI studies and reading the radiologist's report. She told me she was almost certain I had a precancerous condition bilaterally that would likely require a bilateral mastectomy...and she referred me to a cancer center. So here's what's going on in my head during these escalating tests and bad results: my future looks bleak, and the not knowing was wearing me down. One day, in the middle of the uncertainty, a friend from this forum sent me an email saying they were praying Phil. 4:6-7 specifically for me. That email was God's gift to me; Phil. 4:6-7 became my hour-to-hour comfort. If God says to be anxious for nothing but in everything, with prayer and petition, with thanksgiving to let my requests be known to God, and His peace that passes all understanding would guard my heart and mind in Christ Jesus...well, if that is actually His command, then it must be based on something bigger than my need to have my diagnosis resolved and my health restored. Nowhere in that passage (or any other) is there a promise that God will grant me physical healing if I have the right faith or pray properly. But I'm commanded to be anxious for nothing. This command has to be based on a reality that is bigger than I can see or imagine. My problem looked pretty big...and way out of my control. Yet the command did not promise that if I gave up my right to be anxious, that God would resolve my health issues. Instead, I had to trust that God might not heal me, that I might suffer, that I might be scarred, that my work and life might be cut short...and on top of that, I was to give thanks and be anxious for nothing. So, I had to start realizing that my situation was not a surprise to God. He saw it coming before I did...and He didn't stop it. Moreover, my life is for His purposes, and in keeping with Rom 12:1--offering myself to Him as a living sacrifice--I had to be willing to give up my "right" to be healed and instead ask God to glorify Himself in whatever was happening to me. Furthermore, I had to STOP being anxious and instead trust God. I don't mean I had to trust God to be able to heal me or able to redeem this...I had to trust Who He Is. I had to trust that He is my true Father, and He will never look away or stop taking care of me. I had to trust that He is giving me Himself, and whatever reality turns out to be for me, He will be in me and with me and caring for me...even if I go through the shadow of death or surgery or physical loss. I had to trust that He is above and beyond and sovereign over my illness and my physical life and my future and my work. He determines who lives when and where, and He knows my days and numbers them before any of them comes to be. I have to trust Him...not trust Him to fix my problem but trust HIM. The situation is not yet resolved for me. The cancer clinic was very encouraging; they have taken me off a medication I was on and will do another MRI in June. The doctor said she doubts my prognosis is as bleak as my referring doc thought it was, and the radiologist at the clinic said if she saw anything that looked really dangerous, she wouldn't have let me go two months before doing another test. Yet there is still no diagnosis, and having an MRI is definitely two or three steps up the "serious concern" ladder of diagnostic procedures. So I am still waiting...but God is faithful. He is who He says He is in Scripture. I have been seeing more and more clearly that I cannot second guess the plain words of the Bible. I have to take them at face value. I can't interpret them to mean what I think they mean. No! I have to trust God, and even when I don't understand what He means, I still have to believe Him and trust Him. When He says "be anxious for nothing" and I'm facing four abnormal radiology exams and am told I'm facing a bilateral mastectomy, I'm still commanded not to be anxious...because God Himself is my refuge and comfort and peace. I am not promised that I will know or understand. I am promised peace if I trust instead of being anxious, if I pray with thanksgiving. If Jesus says hell is eternal, I have no option but to believe He is telling me the truth—and that even if I have no concept of how that can be true or what it will be like, I have to believe that God is sovereign, is love, is just, is faithful, and that He cannot lie. I have to believe He is my peace and my comfort...even if hell is eternal and I have a dreaded diagnosis. But I can also know that hell is not for me, and no diagnosis can take me out of His hands or separate me from His love. The more I believe what He says without trying to make it fit a paradigm that makes sense to me, the more I find that He is close, personal, and faithful. I am not sure I've made very much sense here...I'm really not sure I've made my point clearly, either. But I'm just sayin': the more literally I take Scripture and the more I decide to trust my true Father and believe He will keep me, the more peace and security I tangibly experience. He confirms Himself in the most mundane ways: when I went for my MRI, I was pretty nervous internally. I was praying to be calm, and compared to my "normal" state in the past, I was doing pretty well. But I was anxious. They got me onto the specially-built table for this MRI and had me positioned on my stomach with my arms stretched out over my head...a position I had to hold for 40 minutes. I was just wondering how I'd manage that when the tech put the communication earphones over my ears, telling me that music would be playing throughout the test. I was just wishing I could be free of the distraction of music, when suddenly I realized that praise music was playing. I was astonished...the very first words I heard were Jeremy Camp singing, "I will trust in You, and I will not be afraid." I felt the tension go out of my body, and I confess I began to cry--but I had to stop because I couldn't wipe the tears away that trickled, tickling, down my nose! The MRI banging obscured much of the music during the test, but those initial words stayed with me: "I will trust in You, and I will not be afraid." It was not a promise that I would be OK...but it was a statement that trusting God would mean I had no need to fear. He was in charge, He was in control...and He knew I needed—right at that moment—to feel His reassurance. He gave me that phrase right at the beginning of that test, and I had 40 minutes of praise music as I lay on that table. He completely took my fear and gave me Himself. And He is greater than hell or than my apprehensions of who He is if Hell is real, or if my diagnosis is cancer, or pre-cancer... I praise Him for being sovereign over everything, and I thank Him for being far greater, more sovereign, more powerful, more just, and more intimate than I ever thought. He is far greater than if He merely had the power to heal me. He can give me peace when all hell is breaking loose...so to speak! Colleen | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1771 Registered: 3-2009 |
Cris, I don't confuse heck with hec, although sometimes the jokes do come by. So no worries. I can take pretty much anything in a post, but when it comes with perceive arrogance then it turns me off and makes me lose credibility on the poster. (I'm not talking about you here) Hec | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 1421 Registered: 12-2007 |
Colleen I have been sitting here sobbing while reading your post. I pray that you will receive a good outcome and have many, many years with your family and with all of us your forum "family" also. It breaks my heart especially to even think about the possibility of your precious grand daughter growing up not knowing you. I can only imagine what you (and Richard) have been going through. I both admire and envy the kind of strength and faith that you have. I am so thankful that you know Jesus and you have the assurance that whatever may come... in the grand scheme of things.... you will be with Him. In the meantime, I will be praying that it will be later,,, much, much later, as there are just way too many people who love you and need you right here. Francie | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3673 Registered: 10-2004  |
Colleen, I echo everything that Francie said. Praying for you, Jeremy | ||
| Grace1958_f Registered user Username: Grace1958_f Post Number: 48 Registered: 3-2011 |
Dear Colleen: I understand some of the anxiety that can accompany your health circumstances. Over a decade ago (via several medical tests) it was discovered that I had pre-cancerous fibroids in my uterus which resulted in me having a complete hysterectomy. (I never had children.) The prayers of the saints carried both me and husband through that difficult time in our lives. I will be praying that God's presence, provision and peace will be with you and your husband during this time in the journey of your lives. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1005 Registered: 7-2004 |
Well Hec, three people challenged your viewpoint, and you have specifically absolved two of them, but still seem to hold by the "I wasn't talking about you" routine to the 3rd person (me). I observe something in your posts that occurs frequently, confusing attacking your belief with a personal attack. And then responding with very personal attacks that are unrelated to any belief. Statements about arrogance, intolerance, and comparisons to a false prophet. This is a disproportionate response. Particularly when the personal insults continue after a post that offers an apology for any personal elements that may have been involved. So instead of continuing on with personal snide remarks, would you consider either letting it go or addressing the issue that I raised? Am I wrong to say that when we define God by our feelings and thoughts, apart from Scripture, that we are creating our own god, a mental idol? If I am wrong, why? | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 9193 Registered: 3-2004  |
Colleen, I don't know what to say except that I am so glad God has been taking care of you through all you are going through. I want to cry! I want to scream "Heal my friend and sister"! I am also praying God hold this sister in your awesome arms and continue to comfort her and her family and carry her as she goes through this. Love you lots Colleen. Diana L | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2459 Registered: 5-2007  |
To the church, the Body of Christ who meet together here on the forum,
While the context of Paul’s message is somewhat different from what Colleen has shared, I think it applies in that we can and do have joy while “under great affliction”. What she has shared affects all of us yet we can all have joy as we uplift her in prayer. Knowing Christ as our Savior and Lord gives us the confidence to trust God even when we do not understand. As I have shared with Colleen, and I am sure it is true for each of us, Jan and I have "challenges" that we must give to the Lord and simply trust he has answers beyond our understanding. Oh the Joy we have, Fearless Phil | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2827 Registered: 8-2004  |
Wow Colleen, praying for you and agreeing with you that we are called to trust God Himself not that God will do this, or that, or whatever it is that we think we need at the moment. May God continue to work things our for our best good and for His glory! (Message edited by helovesme2 on May 19, 2011) | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1006 Registered: 7-2004 |
Colleen, your witness to trusting God in the hard times, as well as the easy, is inspiring. I think that is one of the biggest challenges for us fallen creatures and it gives so much more meaning to the idea of resting in Christ than we find in a day for church. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1584 Registered: 7-2003 |
Colleen, I am so terribly sorry about everything you are going through. I am grateful that you have shared the profound insights you are having even in this most difficult and scary time. "I have to trust Him...not trust Him to fix my problem but trust HIM." This is so good it almost gives me chills. I ABSOLUTELY love the way you described trusting God for who He is. Thank you for sharing. I'll be praying for you. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1160 Registered: 5-2007 |
Dear Colleen, Praying for you. So hoping all the best for you. I fathom at least part of your meanings about Trusting God. It is not a conditional trust or a defined parameter (expectations) trust. It is simply Trust. It is not what will happen, what might happen or what will not. It is Trust in Him. Trust without preconditions, content or expectations. Just Trust. I cannot be sure all that this means in the human sense of the word. But what I do gather is that when it comes to faith, we neither need or get explainations. We are to trust. Jim | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 671 Registered: 2-2003  |
Thanks so much for sharing Colleen, Praying for you too, Adrian | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1772 Registered: 3-2009 |
Colleen, I apologize for not having read your post before. I just ready it, and believe me, I feel for you. I'm so sorry for what you are going through and so thankful that the Lord can use even that for you to minister to us. I pray and will continue praying for God's will in your life. I am the on who should be giving you strength through your hard time, however, I'm getting strength from you. Tod bless you. Hec | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 20 Registered: 2-2011 |
~Colleen~ You are Precious to "our" FATHER~ I have spoken to HIM today and HE says"Believe ME, daughter, I AM taking care of everything in Colleen's life." Remember~ "we" are daughters of the King of Heaven & Earth!!! ~Love & Prayers~ I carry you on my heart my sister ~*~mj~*~ | ||
| Mkfound Registered user Username: Mkfound Post Number: 85 Registered: 1-2011 |
Colleen, please know you and your family will be in my prayers. May God continue to hold you in his Hand. Thank-you for sharing your encouragement to trust in God. That is something that I have some difficulty with, I have to admit. I appreciate this. | ||
| Wiredog Registered user Username: Wiredog Post Number: 169 Registered: 8-2010  |
Colleen, My prayer of strength and faith for you. You practice what I learned about Christianity. A Christian lives a transparent life so that the glory of God will be revealed through us. Thank you for sharing with your family here! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12603 Registered: 12-2003 |
This forum family has been one of the surprises of my life with Jesus post-Adventism. You all have been part of His showing me that He makes us one in Him, and He blesses us through each other. It's not personal meetings that make us one—although those are really wonderful!—it's His Spirit that unites us. Thank you all for sifting through my words and understanding that I wanted to share my amazement at our Father's comfort and faithfulness. Everything is different when He is our identity. The incomprehensible mysteries resolve in His personal love and eternal faithfulness. I am thankful to and for you all. You are my true brothers and sisters. Colleen |
