| Author | Message | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1190 Registered: 5-2007 |
I was watching Pastor Ron Phillips this past Sunday on TV. They were discussing the prayer shaw, woth tassels and knots and how it was a traditional practice for the Jews to use during prayer. Not to be controversial here and with all respect. This is a new element. I do not know what to make of it. Some feel it is a visual aid, others suggest it may enhance the power of a prayer. The promos kept repeating a disclaimer, "it's not Magic" but offering it for over $60 . I do not recall any teaching that suggests the use of any object to enhance prayer. Is this a good thing? Innocent, neutral, harmless? Or is it something less than a good idea? Turns out my sister has one. It is something very special to her. So please be clear, I am not knocking this. Just do not know what to make of it. (Message edited by jim02 on June 20, 2011) | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 9255 Registered: 3-2004  |
When I hear preachers on TV ask for money or that people send in a donation so God can bless them or sell something that has no Biblical basis, I think scam. To me it is just a money making proposition. Diana L (Message edited by Flyinglady on June 20, 2011) | ||
| Treasurehntr Registered user Username: Treasurehntr Post Number: 109 Registered: 7-2007 |
Reminds me of Paul Crouch (TBN) selling Spikenard, and other goodies for a donation. My advice. Beware the snake oil on the Christian Shopping Channels. | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 788 Registered: 7-2000 |
Jim, this Jewish practice is the roots of the Catholic practice of praying the Rosary! It would be fun to ask these SDA's if they know that. Although we really don't need aids to prayer,some Christians do use various aids to keep from being distracted. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1952 Registered: 6-2006  |
Jim, I believe you mean "shawl". From Wikipedia: Prayer shawl (For the Jewish prayer shawl, see Tallit. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tallit ) Prayer shawl, in Christianity, is a piece of cloth blessed in honor of a saint, angel, or deceased person. They are blessed by the clergy and can be informally blessed through prayer by the laity. They are to be given to a person who is ill, injured, or in bad fortune.[1] They may also be given to people for celebrating events such as childbirth, baptism, or confirmation.[2] Prayer shawls are common in Roman Catholic, Eastern Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, Methodist, and Presbyterian churches. (Message edited by grace_alone on June 20, 2011) | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 841 Registered: 10-2006 |
Hmmm. I grew up Presbyterian and than became Methodist before Seventh-day Adventism came into my life. I've never seen or heard of a prayer shawl in church. The only place I've seen prayer shawls is in Jewish synogogues and on TV. Televangelists need to get the money some way. I put (non Jewish) prayer shawls in the same category as the blessed bags of rice, blessed hankies that you put under your pillow and the prayers that will be prayed if you give enough money. My bottom line is that my God hears and loves me - and does what's best when I pray. For me prayer is communication with my Lord and Savior. I don't need gimmicks. Prayer shawls are important in Judaism. I don't think they're gimmicks there. By the way, I'm reading a FABULOUS book right now called The Ministry of Intercession by Andrew Murray. Anyone else read it? | ||
| Thegoldenway Registered user Username: Thegoldenway Post Number: 26 Registered: 5-2011 |
Joyfulheart: I love reading Andrew Murray!! I have several of his books. The book that I am rereading right now is called "Absolute Surrender". That is a wonderful book, too. The last pastor that I was under at the SDA church actually gave me a book by Andrew Murray on the Holy Spirit. He wanted to do a group study on that book but several members of the church attacked him. He is one SDA pastor that I know God is working with in bringing him out of SDAism. He is now in Idaho. Ya Andrew Murray has some awesome books. What's funny is that he is a contemporary of EGW. hahaha lynn | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7240 Registered: 9-2006  |
I don't think the prayer shawl is meant to be worn in church service, but at home in private prayer as a sign of humbleness before God. I've seen different ones offering it. Personally I never felt I needed it, or patches of cloth or whatever. Its no different than bell ringing or priest and preachers wearing robes. Personally if I thought robes, prayer shawls would help my point of faith, I would do it. To me it don't matter if a man stands on his head to pray if it helps. Jesus used various means to help people have faith, such as spit and mud. I'm pretty sure the spit and mud didn't do much to heal anything, yet when he did that, they believed for healing and blessing. Whatever it takes for a person to launch their faith toward God. Jim says it is very special to his sister, it doesn't mean she considers that it does anything, it is just how she reaches her 'point of faith'. I have laid my hand on the bible while I prayed and that seemed to help. Whatever helps folks. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1125 Registered: 7-2004  |
Great description River! | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 842 Registered: 10-2006 |
Lots of people find lots of stuff helpful in growing and exercising their faith. If using a prayer shawl is helpful - go for it. God, I think though would have told us if those things really mattered. God said it is our faith and belief that He wants. He wants us to pray knowing that He hears and answers. He doesn't want us to be double minded. Those things are clear. My faith is in God, my Father. I can go to Him through Jesus - in His name, by His blood. I don't need a prayer shawl, or Bible or hankie or anything else. If it's meaningful, go for it. This is the first time I've ever heard of Christians using one. That being said, I fall and fail more often than I would like to admit - and need support and encouragement to exercise my faith during hard times. Sometimes I look at the circumstances around me and fear collabers my faith. I usually turn to people (who I know are strong in faith)and ask them to pray for and with me rather than inanimate objects. Knowing and claiming promises of God, making my need known to others who I trust to pray ferevently, fasting and taking time away just to be with God alone is helpful for me. If I thought a prayer shawl would help, I would get one fast. Lynn, I read Absolute Surrender a while ago - and it was powerful. It's nice to meet another Andrew Murray reader. His books are short, but seem to take forever to read because there's so much to absorb. Another favorite of mine is True Vine. It's really short with chapters being only about two pages each, but really powerful. It's a devotional book about John 15. It breaks down many simple phrases in the chapter a expounds on them. I never thought I would like reading books like that - but have read it many times. If you haven't read Ministry of Intercession, I highly recommend it! I never realized he was a contemporary of EGW - go figure! I wonder what he and other Godly men thought about what she and the others were doing. Patty | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1586 Registered: 11-2007  |
If it has knots and tassels.. it's Jewish. Those are called tzit tzit.. commanded to Israelites in the book of Numbers, to be worn on their garments. Jewish tradition now puts them on the prayer shawls.. or "tallit". Orthodox Jewish men do not pray without this over their head, placed in a specific way. (Hassidic Jews wear the tassels on a garment all the time) This is one of many methods people use to draw near to God spiritually with external props. Maybe it's helpful - but I prefer to believe I can draw near to God without them. To focus on these things draws us back to the "elemental things" as Paul put it. And the really bad part of all this is most definitely... "offering it for over $60" You can buy them on eBay for much less!! It's just a racket. If anyone wants one, we have one we will sell you for only $45.00 ha. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7249 Registered: 9-2006 |
yeah, there's two different sides to that coin. To use inanimate objects in place of faith, or whether we use it as an integral part of our faith in God. If we use anything, even asking others to pray for us, as a faith replacement, then we begin a downhill slide. I would imagine Sondra is a little bit gunshy? Well...I think its time for me to go back into hibernation (; | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 316 Registered: 5-2009 |
River said: If we use anything, even asking others to pray for us, as a faith replacement, then we begin a downhill slide. That to me is provocative & profound. Anything we focus on or use to get to God is a replacement for Jesus. It goes to motives. And even there the deception can be so subtle - as subtle as asking others to pray. I have nearly succombed to that recently, so it's a thought worth thinking about. Nothing wrong with asking for the prayers of others, just that sometimes our own motives can be suspect. J9 | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 846 Registered: 10-2006 |
J9 and River, that hit me hard, too when I read it. I've been asking myself if asking others to pray is a faith replacement for me. I live alone. What about the scripture that says when two or more are gathered in my name there I am in the midst of them. It also says that when two or more agree it shall be done. Matthew 18:19-21 “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.” We are continually told in the Word to use our spiritual gifts that we can be built up and have our faith encouraged - not replaced. I really don't think sharing my needs and asking others to pray with and for me is a faith replacement. I think of it as an I need the body of Christ to come along side of me when I'm struggling and hurting and need encouragement kind of thing. When I ask for prayer on this forum as I did when my mom was critically ill and during some really tough things as I was leaving Adventism, it was encouraging to see the comments and promises to pray. I need the body of Christ to come along side me when I'm hurting. I really don't think it's replacing the faith I have. You know, Jesus said if we have even the faith of a mustard seed we can call for the mountain to be thrown into the sea and it will be done. The next logical question is do I have even a little of that quality of faith? I love biographies and have reading about George Mueller and his orphanages. When I read about the needs that were continually supplied miraculously, I'm a little bit ashamed that I doubt God's eye and care for and about my needs. Back to the original question, I don't use a prayer shawl because 1. I'd never heard of it used as except in Judaism. 2. It isn't listed as a condition or even suggestion to new testament believers. 3. God would have mentioned it in His Word if He thought it would help our faith and belief which is really what God wants in the first place. I really think God wants us to know and be concerned about and pray for each other's needs. Just my thoughts... I'd like to hear yours. Joyfulheart | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1587 Registered: 11-2007 |
knee jerk gunshy that would be.  wise words there indeed. | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 317 Registered: 5-2009 |
Joyfulheart, A motto we have lived by for many years is this: "Just because someone says something, that does not make it so." I have learned that I do need to examine myself & consider what my motives are. I must ask God to show me. For me, I have a learned trait of martyrdom & can easily have selfish motives for behavior that looks good to others. That is not true for everyone obviously. River's comment just touched an area with me where God was nudging me. I also know to ask God to guard us from false guilt that our enemy is trying to attack us with. Then I need to refuse & reject those thoughts. I just need to keep asking & listening to God. As to loneliness I am dealing with some of that now too. This scripture spoke to me recently & I wrote it in my journal: Psalm 68:6 New Living Translation (NLT) God places the lonely in families; he sets the prisoners free and gives them joy. I have learned along the way that we can have 'Families of Choice' when needed sometimes. At the same time I personally have a sinful self sufficiency that I for years believed was just independence. So I also need to learn when I need to go to others, share & ask & let them help carry the burdens & pray with me. It's all a process over time & with God. Thanks for sharing you perspective. I like hearing different points of view. Often I learn something from others that I need to understand & consider. J9 | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1953 Registered: 6-2006 |
I believe this is a good time to ask "What's the point?" If it's part of your culture and you were raised with a prayer shawl (which mean's you're a Jew) that's one thing. However, to spend $60 for one to add an element to your prayer routine, I'd say just donate the $60 bucks and pass on the shawl. It's not going to change or enhance a Christian's relationship with their Lord in any way, other than looking pretty... Leigh Anne | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1192 Registered: 5-2007 |
My take on it is that it is a Spirtual matter between the person and God. Maybe an atmosphere setting. I am not convinced that it is a bad thing since it was used by the Jews to symbolize several things. I do not think it is overruled or prohibited in the Christian setting. Nor is it mandated. My guess , it is a personal choice. The thing that trips me up is the concept that things can magnify the power of prayer in any way. Cloth, Oil, Candles, water, mud all have been used in the past. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 9258 Registered: 3-2004 |
Jim, Jesus did not charge for anything He did when He healed people. Those prayer shawls cost some money. Any time money is asked for to enhance a person's prayer life, I am suspicious. In my opinion it is only for money making. Diana L | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7250 Registered: 9-2006 |
I just don't know how to make myself any plainer, I did not say that asking others to pray was a replacement of faith, what I meant was, it could become a replacement for our faith. And the point is, you pay your 60 bucks for that prayer shawl, and the first thing you know you gotta run and get your prayer shawl to pray,If you are in the car and there arises a need to pray, the first thing your mind will hit on is that prayer shawl you left at home I'll bet a dollar against a donut. (or) in the case asking others to pray, if you gotta get on the phone every time you have a need to pray, then you are depending on them to do what you need to do yourself. Second point being, if you go to the father to ask of him he hears you. As a born again Christian, we can every one come boldly before the throne of grace to help in time of need. We should pray for one another, or the concerns of others, but running to someone each and every time we have a need is not 'boldly' using a prayer Shawl is not 'boldly', ya don't need the thing. Of course its a money gimmick Diana, thats why they sell it, if it was really any use then common sense would tell me they oughta raise money some other way in order to give them away...postage paid. Good grief I just soon have a pet rock! IMHO... |
