| Author | Message | ||
| Rain Registered user Username: Rain Post Number: 7 Registered: 9-2011  |
What about the Great Controversy (the idea, not the book) is blasphemous? I have no doubt it is, I just wanted to hear what you guys have to say about it. Also, how has a shift from a Great Controversy worldview to a non-Great-Controversy worldview changed things for you? I'm just now understanding that the Great Controversy isn't Biblical and that God doesn't answer to us by having to "vindicate His character." Rather, He saves us through Jesus at the Cross. I'm seeing that this will have a profound affect on my theology, so I just wanted to hear a bit about it from you guys. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1212 Registered: 7-2004  |
In the Great Controversy world view we save God. In Christianity, God saves us. Think about it, if we have to "vindicate God's character" what is the result if we fail to accomplish this vindication? In the Great Controversy Satan has brought a charge against God. All of the unfallen universe is watching to see if this charge turns out to be true or false. If God were not vindicated then Satan would win the Great Controversy and rule the universe. And how is God vindicated? By our actions. We save God. Is there anything that could be more blasphemous than man saving God? | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 1244 Registered: 7-2005  |
Well said, Ric_b. That's the whole thing in a nutshell. One of my least favorite cliches in Adventism is the idea of anyone being 'safe to save.' Just think of the implications of that! It paints God as the helpless pawn of human activity. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12966 Registered: 12-2003  |
Exactly, HonestWitness and Ric_b. Rain, have you read the article in the last Proclamation? It's a close look at the GC worldview contrasted with a biblical view. You can read it here: http://www.lifeassuranceministries.org/proclamation/2011/2/greatcontroversy.html Colleen | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1600 Registered: 11-2007  |
God is in control. There is no controversy. He isn't hoping it will turn out right. He isn't waiting for anyone to "get it right". He is not worried about what Satan may accuse Him of. In fact all that Satan is allowed to do is only furthering God's final plan. The worldview of the Bible is that God is God... and nothing or no one can ever challenge that. I know I'm restating what was just said. I just wanted to say it too!!! Every time I just read through the scriptures.. I am overwhelmed with how big and in control He is. | ||
| Butterfly_poette Registered user Username: Butterfly_poette Post Number: 72 Registered: 5-2011 |
The Bible doesn't go into great detail about things that happened before the creation of the Earth. EGW goes into great detail about it. It's totally unbiblical. It adds on to it all. | ||
| Foofighter Registered user Username: Foofighter Post Number: 174 Registered: 7-2005 |
Honestwitness, I was just talking to my husband about that phrase, "safe to save". When I first heard it, I thought it was so ridiculous. My second thought was, where is that in the Bible, in any way? Yes, it is a very Adventist thing to say, along with "vindicating God's character". Another foolish Adventist idea! Carol | ||
| Rain Registered user Username: Rain Post Number: 8 Registered: 9-2011 |
What does "safe to save" mean? I don't remember hearing it before now (or I forgot I heard it). And thank you all for your responses. I'm reading that article right now, Colleen. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1215 Registered: 7-2004 |
"Safe to save". This phrase is thrown around a fair amount, probably varies how much from one place to another in SDAism. I'm not even sure that all of the SDAs who use the phrase really understand the implications. EGW teaches that our characters are unchanged between here and heaven. Therefore, if we are sinners here we would be sinners in heaven. The Investigative Judgment is necessary to determine if we would be "safe to save" in this regard. The IJ answers the question of whether the evidence of our lives shows that if we were given access to eternal life that we would someday sin, reintroducing sin into a perfect world. God will have eradicated sin in the lake of fire (as they teach annilihation), and God needs to make sure that sin will never rise again. God does this by only granting eternal life to those who are "safe to save", those who will not be a risk of sinning in the next life. | ||
| Got2bfree Registered user Username: Got2bfree Post Number: 6 Registered: 7-2011 |
Help me understand how they say we are in danger of sinning in eternity, when satan will have been cast into the lake of fire at that time? What is the SDA answer to that? | ||
| Rain Registered user Username: Rain Post Number: 9 Registered: 9-2011 |
Oh, okay. I've heard that idea over and over but never heard the phrase "safe to save" associated with it. I was thinking just a while ago about an "evangelical" series my SDA church had several years back. One of the topics was "Why do bad things happen to good people?" and I remember the Great Controversy viewpoint being the answer to that. How would a person without a Great Controversy worldview answer the question of why sin continues to persist? | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1216 Registered: 7-2004 |
We can still sin, supposedly I guess, after Satan has been annilihated in the lake of fire because of our free will (keep in mind the teaching of SDAism that free will is the greatest gift God gives to man). If we can't control our will so that we do not sin here, why would we be able to control our will any better in heaven? | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 9418 Registered: 3-2004  |
"Safe to save" and "vindicate God's character" are terms that I did not hear until after I left adventism when I read the NT back in 2004. Words used to describe various doctrine changed when I was not being a faithful adventist. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1219 Registered: 7-2004 |
Why does sin continue to persist? We don't need a Great Controversy view, Scripture anwers the question directly...2 Pet 3:8-9 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. How well does this description of bad things happening to good people fit the Great Controversy world view: John 9:1-3 As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, ethis man or his parents, that he was born blind?” Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him. The hard part to accept about bad things happening is that God is in control, not just some of the time but ALL of the time. Adventism makes satan almost as powerful as God. And handcuffs God from being able to do anything about bad things happening. The Great Controversy view is almost as blasphemous in this regard as it is in regard to vindicating God. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12968 Registered: 12-2003 |
In addition, if we understand the new birth and the totally complete atonement Jesus accomplished for us, the question of "sin" looks entirely different. God has given us a way to be literally transferred from the domain of darkness into the kingdom of His beloved Son...now, here (Col 1:13)! When we are born again, our natural sin—our dead spirits—are made alive, and sin no longer rules over us. We are eternally alive, even though we still live in mortal tents. The text Ric_b quoted above, 2 Pet. 3:8-9, explains that God isn't slow...He is patient, extending the opportunity for more and more people to believe in the Lord Jesus and to be born of the Spirit. When you look at sin from this perspective, we begin to see that "sin" is not the issue. God is dispensing Life even now, and when we pass from death to life, sin has no more claim on us, even though we may commit sins. But we are not defined by sin any longer, and we have the actual presence and power of the Lord Jesus in us to minister His Life to the still-dark world of those who are still dead in sin. Sin isn't an opposing power to the goodness of God. It is actually the absence of Life, and God is bringing the dead in sin to Life in His Son who gives us His resurrection Life, and the power of sin and death can no longer claim us. "Sin" exists, still, because God is patiently bringing more and more people to Life, setting them free from the absence of Life that is sin. And we who are born again have the amazing privilege of being available for God to work through us, ministering Life and hope to the darkness of those still caught in death. It's amazing, really. Colleen | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 852 Registered: 8-2008 |
8th Day, I wouldn't say "there is no controversy." I would say God in His sovereign will created Satan knowing he would rebel and seek to wreak havoc on God's creation. As such, God allowed a conflict, becauee it would bring Him greater glory. In the end, this conflict is like a dogfight between a sassy little chihuaha and a powerful great dane. The great dane can consume the chihuaha in a single bite any time he wishes, but he will wait until the time is right. The SDA Great Controversy is a dualistic worldview that says the fight is between two great danes. | ||
| Trans4mer Registered user Username: Trans4mer Post Number: 5 Registered: 9-2011 |
For me, I am my own worst enemy, in any 'conflict' or 'controversy'.  I believe the Bible is clear that the Sovereign Lord can save me "to the uttermost" even from that 'worst enemy'.  | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1317 Registered: 5-2007 |
Colleen, are there scriptures that mirror your expression 'absence of life'? (ps.I am not being argumentitive, I actually would like to know how you discover these insights through scripture.) Jim | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1318 Registered: 5-2007 |
Where did EGW/SDA get the idea that God is vindicating Himself to man or the universe? Jim | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12974 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jim, read John 1:1-5 and John 3; Ephesians 2:1-3 and Colossians 1:13. Ephesians 2 tells us we are dead in our sin and in bondage to the spirit who is at work in those who are disobedient. Verses 4-6 explain that God, in His great mercy, raised us to life in Christ Jesus while we were dead in our sin and seated us with Him in the heavenly realm. The last verse of John 3 says, "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not believe will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." The world since Pentecost is composed of two kinds of people: the walking dead who are still condemned by being in their natural, not-born-again state—the "domain of darkness"—and those who are alive because they have believed in the Lord Jesus and have received Life—they have been transferred into the kingdom of God's beloved Son (Col 1:13). John 1:4-5 says that in Jesus the Word was Life, and that Life was the Light of men. Colleen |
