| Author | Message | ||
| Trans4mer Registered user Username: Trans4mer Post Number: 6 Registered: 9-2011 |
Would like to know what people think here on this: Is it the young earth literal creation? Or is it possibly macro-evolution as author Gerald Schroeder, author of "Science of God" insists? | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1260 Registered: 7-2004  |
I don't believe that it is an either or question. I think that is part of what haunts this discussion relative to the unity of Believers. I don't think that Genesis is written in code that needs to be decrypted in order to understand how creation truly happened. I am certain that Scripture is written to reveal theological truths about the nature of God, of man, of sin, and of salvation. I'm not certain that it is written in Scientific language that answers all of our other questions. I don't believe we should force Scripture to fit our current understanding of science (and it is important to realize just how much our understanding of science has changed in that century which makes me wonder how much more our understanding will change if we have another 100 or 500 years). Nor should we force our understanding of science to fit Scripture. Science is based on what we can observe and test, faith is not. I enjoy science, but I believe in a God who is bigger and more powerful than I can observe or test. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2145 Registered: 7-2007 |
I agree with Ric_b that science is unreliable and that it keeps changing. GotQuestions.org sums up what I believe about it very well. Here's a quote concerning a literal six day creation week: “The context in which the word yom is used in Genesis 1:5-2:2, describing each day as “the evening and the morning,” makes it quite clear that the author of Genesis meant 24-hour periods. The references to “evening” and “morning” make no sense unless they refer to a literal 24-hour day. This was the standard interpretation of the days of Genesis 1:5-2:2 until the 1800s when a paradigm shift occurred within the scientific community, and the earth's sedimentary strata layers were reinterpreted. Whereas previously the rock layers were interpreted as evidence of Noah's flood, the flood was thrown out by the scientific community and the rock layers were reinterpreted as evidence for an excessively old earth. Some well-meaning but terribly mistaken Christians then sought to reconcile this new anti-flood, anti-biblical interpretation with the Genesis account by reinterpreting yom to mean vast, unspecified periods of time.” And here's another quote by GotQuestions.org: "Genesis 1:1 says, “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.” Later, in Genesis 2:4, it seems that a second, different story of creation begins. The idea of two differing creation accounts is a common misinterpretation of these two passages which, in fact, describe the same creation event. They do not disagree as to the order in which things were created and do not contradict one another. Genesis 1 describes the “six days of creation” (and a seventh day of rest), Genesis 2 covers only one day of that creation week—the sixth day—and there is no contradiction." | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2146 Registered: 7-2007 |
To continue what GotQuestions.org says in that second paragraph I put down; here it is; quote: In Genesis 2, the author steps back in the temporal sequence to the sixth day, when God made man. In the first chapter, the author of Genesis presents the creation of man on the sixth day as the culmination or high point of creation. Then, in the second chapter, the author gives greater detail regarding the creation of man. There are two primary claims of contradictions between Genesis chapters 1-2. The first is in regard to plant life. Genesis 1:11 records God creating vegetation on the third day. Genesis 2:5 states that prior to the creation of man “no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground.” So, which is it? Did God create vegetation on the third day before He created man (Genesis 1), or after He created man (Genesis 2)? The Hebrew words for “vegetation” are different in the two passages. Genesis 1:11 uses a term that refers to vegetation in general. Genesis 2:5 uses a more specific term that refers to vegetation that requires agriculture, i.e., a person to tend it, a gardener. The passages do not contradict. Genesis 1:11 speaks of God creating vegetation, and Genesis 2:5 speaks of God not causing “farmable” vegetation to grow until after He created man. The second claimed contradiction is in regard to animal life. Genesis 1:24-25 records God creating animal life on the sixth day, before He created man. Genesis 2:19, in some translations, seems to record God creating the animals after He had created man. However, a good and plausible translation of Genesis 2:19-20 reads, “Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them, and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field.” The text does not say that God created man, then created the animals, and then brought the animals to the man. Rather, the text says, “Now the LORD God had [already] created all the animals.” There is no contradiction. On the sixth day, God created the animals, then created man, and then brought the animals to the man, allowing the man to name the animals. By considering the two creation accounts individually and then reconciling them, we see that God describes the sequence of creation in Genesis 1, then clarifies its most important details, especially of the sixth day, in Genesis 2. There is no contradiction here, merely a common literary device describing an event from the general to the specific. Recommended Resource: The Case for a Creator by Lee Strobel." Anyway, GotQuestions.org really clarifies the apparent contradiction between chapters one and two of Genesis. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1261 Registered: 7-2004 |
Asurprise, Let's not restart the same tired discussion here. The reply from GotQuestions has serious gaps in taking Gen 2 completely literally. Instead of discussing those gaps you are simply introducing the same issues into a new thread. I worked hard to create a post that addressed the opening questions without reopening old arguments and old wounds. I beg you to practice self-control and respect on this new start of a thread. | ||
| Trans4mer Registered user Username: Trans4mer Post Number: 7 Registered: 9-2011 |
I was hoping someone would have read or at least looked over the book I mentioned - "The Science of God" by Gerald Schroeder. He has a scientific theory of how the whole universe, in one sense can be about 14 billion yrs. old and still correspond with the Biblical 7 day period. For example a day on Jupiter would obviously be much longer than a day on earth. Also, I'd like a response about some books e.g. Genesis, Job and Revelation being symbolic/prophetic, even conditional, on their interpretation. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1262 Registered: 7-2004 |
The order in Gen 1 would also have to be incorrect to allow for these day as an age theories. That is why I believe it creates more problems than it solves. Yes, there is symbolic language in many books, but that doesn't mean "de-coding" is needed. It may mean that we understand the passage as a poetic analogy meant to illustrate a theological point not describe a science truth in some elaborate code. | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 586 Registered: 3-2009 |
This subject has been thoroughly discussed/debated in the thread below, titled: "In the Beginning" | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 864 Registered: 10-2006 |
I encourage you to check out www.answersingenesis.com if you haven't already. I'm not going to debate anyone, but simply say that I believe we have a young earth. If we can't let the Bible say what it says we're in trouble. AIG has great DVD's. I highly recommend them. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1616 Registered: 7-2003  |
Hmmmm......maybe if I feel energetic this next week I'll write something up explaining why many Jewish/Hebrew scholars for centuries (before the advent of modern science) have thought the Hebrew syntax, grammar, and context of Genesis 1 & 2 should be understood as six distinct periods of creation followed by a seventh period without end. Even if we completely and totally ignore the record of nature, I think the Hebrew text itself gives us VERY strong clues that Moses is describing periods of indeterminate length. Our English translations really don't do justice to what is being said in the Hebrew. Again, not an essential and certainly not something we should divide over, but let me put it this way: If every scientist in the world insisted that the earth and everything in it was formed in six 24 hour periods, I would be skeptical of the science because I think the inspired Hebrew scripture strongly argues for God choosing to do something else. As it turns out, the record of nature seems to coincide with what the inspired Word conveys. No surprise there as God is the author of both. | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 591 Registered: 3-2009 |
Thanks, Chris. It's always so neat to hear how the Bible accurately reflects some of the empirical realities we observe. Or, to be more precise, our observations accurately map onto the Bible account. Nevertheless, I'm a bit weary of this debate dividing believers. It's like old earth creationists are sometimes put on "heresy watch"  | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1266 Registered: 7-2004 |
Chris, I would certainly love to read what you put together. I consistently find you to be a thoughtful and articulate teacher. | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 578 Registered: 5-2009  |
Chris, I'm praying right now that you'll feel energetic this week and want to write that up. I would love to read it and share it with someone who is into Jewish thought AND convinced in the literal six days creation. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2574 Registered: 5-2007  |
I am with Seekinglight when she says: “Nevertheless, I'm a bit weary of this debate dividing believers.” Up to now I’ve avoided making any comment but would like to share some of my thoughts without attempting to persuade you good folks into my particular view point. There are several valid positions on this topic and mine is only one of them. The bible says God spoke and the universe came into existence. Present day humanist science purports to have us believe there was a ‘big band’ without explaining what came before or initiated this. The bible simply says that God is eternal and always existed and he is responsible for the existence of the universe with all that it contains. One view would only require an instant of time to occur. The other mandates long eons of time to have even a remote chance of being true. Personally to me, it doesn’t matter if the Genesis account is describing what was long periods or literal 24 hour days as we know them since all God really requires is an instant of time to perform a miracle. So, I tend to just read the Genesis account literally as it seems to read with the understanding that much has not been stated. The goal of evolutionist is to exclude God from their understanding of the world and deny the consequences of sin in their lives. I love science since I am a technically minded person and have found it necessary to reconcile what the bible teaches versus the ramblings of godless theories. When preaching the gospel and confronting the theories which are accepted as ‘truth’, all a Christian really needs to do, under the leading of the Holy Spirit, is to point out the false foundation of those who would attempt to remove God from their lives. Since God is the author of all that science purports to examine, true science will not contradict God’s inspired word, the bible. Also, all those who make commentary on what the scriptures say must use scripture to interpret scripture. Therefore, even if ancient Jewish commentators see the Genesis six days in the week of creation as being extended periods, I am not impressed if their views are not supported from God’s inspired word. PS Looking forward to what Chris has to share. Fearless Phil | ||
| Trans4mer Registered user Username: Trans4mer Post Number: 8 Registered: 9-2011 |
I guess I'd like to hear some of Chris's spin too. But I would STILL like someone's spin on the book I read that IMO, is the best I've seen on putting science and the Bible parallel. As someone (you know who) once said, "science and the Bible correctly understood do not conflict". I believe the Creator expects us to strive to increase our understanding of that because we just shouldn't declare scientific fact to contradict the Bible. Where would our hospitals be now without sci/tech advancement? | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2150 Registered: 7-2007 |
Trans4mer; even scientists don't believe that "evolution" and the time that they believe it took for people and everything to come into being is a fact. That's why they call it a theory. (Message edited by Asurprise on September 25, 2011) | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2152 Registered: 7-2007 |
Chris; just curious, concerning the Jewish scholars you were referring to. Had these scholars accepted the Messiah, Jesus [Who really is clearly foretold in the Hebrew scriptures, BTW] or not? | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2154 Registered: 7-2007 |
Here's a link to a Hebrew-English interlinear Bible online: http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm | ||
| Rossbondreturns Registered user Username: Rossbondreturns Post Number: 262 Registered: 10-2009  |
I advise you download it...I've only studied a few choice verses with it. For instance John 5:18...this is going to be a very useful tool. | ||
| Handmaiden Registered user Username: Handmaiden Post Number: 246 Registered: 7-2008 |
If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask GOD, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. James 1:5 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, Who does NOT change like shifting shadows. James 1:17 But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. James 3:17 When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom. Proverbs 11:2 Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another. 1 Corinthians 4:6 Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. 1 Corinthians 6:1 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. Romans 14:19 Interesting that Jews all over the world are about to celebrate Rosh Hashanah the Jewish New year... and the new year is 5772. We as gentiles are commisioned to provoke the chosen people to jealousy over our relationship with God. So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. Romans 11:11 Please pray for the peace of Jerusalem and for all of the Jewish people to be set free from the law and bow the knee before Yeshua Hamashia..that the veil would be lifted from their eyes, as it was lifted from ours...that they might recognize the pierced One, as their Messiah that we might all be one in Christ Jesus our Lord. blessings handmaiden | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 254 Registered: 9-2006 |
Trans4mer, you began this thread asking about Gerald Schroeder and his book, "The Science of God." I have the book, along with two others, "The Hidden Face of God," and "Genesis and the Big Bang." Schroeder became well known for helping to convince atheist philosopher Anthony Flew that a divine mind created the universe. Schroeder is an applied physicist who worked on a team testing atomic bombs, and also an "applied theologian." Schroeder's has attempted to reconcile biblical creation with Big Bang physics, and of course, his ideas are not compatible with the YEC models. As an orthodox Jew, Schroeder has written much about Genesis, to show that the six days of creation can be reconciled with a 13.7 billion year old universe. His views have some commonalities to those of Hugh Ross. Basically, Schroeder argues from Einstein's theory of relativity, that time is very different in duration, depending on one's location, velocity and gravity. At the beginning of the universe, gravity was vastly greater because of the violent, dense conditions right after the Big Bang, producing "time dilation." Also, time was much different throughout the cosmos, making consistent measurement of time impossible. Under those conditions of different motions throughout the universe and varying forces of gravity, time had many clocks. The young universe had a much slower clock than now, Schroeder says, because of the early conditions, making it possible for a single day to last billions of years in today's local earth time. To describe the creation, God used a single frame of reference for time--His. In his book, "Genesis and the Big Bang," Schroeder makes an interesting argument about time and man's spirit. The moment Adam was created, God placed in him the breath of life, the "neshamah," which was unique in the universe. From that moment on, God and man were inseparably linked, and the "clock" of record was now man's frame of reference, for God's time was also our time. To me as a Christian, I think of God becoming Man to dwell with us forever as Messiah. I am not a "Schroederite," but I believe he has added something to the conversation. Martin C | ||
| Trans4mer Registered user Username: Trans4mer Post Number: 9 Registered: 9-2011 |
Martinc ........... Thank you so much for taking the time to give just the answer I needed!! I'll have soak up and process all this. Are you a scientist? You sure sound like one, but a spiritual one too. I think you have no idea how much this helped my thinking on this. I've always had a burden for the scientific minds who felt mocked and offended by YEC banter. You've just put this in 'warp maneuver' for me. Thanks again! | ||
| Handmaiden Registered user Username: Handmaiden Post Number: 254 Registered: 7-2008 |
Trans4mer, i am sorry that your thread was derailed above and i am thankful that Martin was able to answer your question. May i also recommend a book to you ?? Refuting Compromise By Dr. Jonathan Sarfati About the author Jonathan D. Sarfati, Ph.D., F.M. was born in Ararat, Australia, in 1964. He moved to New Zealand as a child, where he later studied mathematics, geology, physics, and chemistry at Victoria University in Wellington. He obtained honors level in physical and inorganic chemistry, as well as in condensed matter physics and nuclear physics. He received his Ph.D. in physical chemistry from the same institution in 1995 on the topic of spectroscopy, especially vibrational. He has co-authored various technical papers on such things as high temperature superconductors and sulfur and selenium-containing ring and cage molecules. As well as being interested in formal logic and philosophy, Dr. Sarfati is a keen chess player. He represented New Zealand in three Chess Olympiads and is a former New Zealand national chess champion. In 1988, F.I.D.E., the International Chess Federation, awarded him the title of F.I.D.E. Master (F.M.). A Christian since 1984, he was for some years on the editorial committee of Apologia, the journal of the Wellington Christian Apologetics Society, of which he was a co-founder. Dr. Sarfati currently works full time for Creation Ministries International, a non-profit ministry, as a research scientist and editorial consultant for Creation Ex Nihilo family magazine and the technical Journal of Creation, and has written many articles for both. He also contributes to the CMI website. He is the author of Refuting Evolution, Refuting Evolution 2, By Design..., and Refuting Compromise. The book is easy to read but has areas for the very technical readers as well. The book is divided into the following chapters: The Authority of Scripture The Days of Creation The History of Interpretation of Genesis 1 - 11 The Order of Creation The Big Bang and Astronomy The Origin of Death and Suffering The Created Kinds The Global Flood and Noah's Ark The History of Mankind "Biblical" Old-Age Arguments Science and the Young Earth Refuting Old-Earth Arguments i just started reading it and it is amazing. Thanks handmaiden | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12996 Registered: 12-2003  |
Trans4mer, I'll let Martin tell you more about himself, but he is an amateur astronomer and has written a couple of articles for Proclamation that, if you haven't read them, I think you'd truly enjoy. The first is entitled, "Are Other Worlds Watching Us?" and is available here: http://www.lifeassuranceministries.org/proclamation/2008/1/martincarey.html The second is entitled, "Opening Orion" and is here: http://www.lifeassuranceministries.org/proclamation/2009/3/openingorion.html I'm absolutely certain you will enjoy and learn from these! Colleen | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 255 Registered: 9-2006 |
Trans4mer, I'm so glad that my post about Dr. Schroeder was helpful to you and answered some of your questions. It seems there is a need in the body of Christ for a humble, respectful conversation about the divisive topic of science. No, I'm not a scientist, and I've had only a few real science classes. God has a great sense of humor, as He likes to use people with no qualifications whatsoever to stir the pot! You're right, many Christians who are students of science have felt marginalized by some of the YEC literature. We talked about this on the thread, "In the Beginning." I also try to keep in mind how many Christians who believe in a young earth are also derided and even persecuted by the secular media and some in the public education system. If they believe in the Bible, they must be anti-science, and vice-versa. That is willfully ignorant and tragic. The study of Intelligent Design (ID) helped push me out of agnosticism toward faith in the God of the Bible. Ironically, ID is often criticized by the young earth community because of its focus on science, without promoting a Biblical worldview. However, many ID leaders are Christians, though not all. If you haven't seen it, watch the ID classic movie, "Privileged Planet," and tell us what you think. Later, I'll tell the story of how that film caused a big storm in our little astronomy club here in San Bernardino, CA. There were some who wanted my head, although as I have hopefully demonstrated, it is still attached. May the Spirit of Christ continue to guide your search for wisdom. Martin C | ||
| Trans4mer Registered user Username: Trans4mer Post Number: 10 Registered: 9-2011 |
Thank you, Handmaiden, Martin C, and Collentinker for the timely, candid posts! I'm looking forward to getting fat, feasting on the material recommended. What a pleasant 'relief', the friends on here. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13001 Registered: 12-2003 |
We're awfully glad you've joined us, Trans4mer! Colleen | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 703 Registered: 11-2004 |
Thank you Trans4mer for this thread and Martinc for your comments. I'm getting the book "Science of God." I've been looking for something like this |
