| Author | Message | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1330 Registered: 5-2007 |
Colossians 2:14-15 New International Version (NIV) 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[ Colossians 2:14-15 New King James Version (NKJV) 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. Colossians 2:14-15 Amplified Bible (AMP) 14Having cancelled and blotted out and wiped away the handwriting of the note (bond) with its legal decrees and demands which was in force and stood against us (hostile to us). This [note with its regulations, decrees, and demands] He set aside and cleared [a]completely out of our way by nailing it to [His] cross. 15[God] disarmed the principalities and powers that were ranged against us and made a bold display and public example of them, in triumphing over them in Him and in it [the cross]. J: Can anyone help me to determine what was taken away exactly in context to the above passage? Was it the 613 Moses codes or was it the 10C, or both? Contextually, what is specified here? Thanks, Jim | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1284 Registered: 7-2004  |
You could ask what laws condemned us. That might start to narrow it down. | ||
| Wiredog Registered user Username: Wiredog Post Number: 265 Registered: 8-2010  |
Well said Ric_b. Jim, I trust that while you are asking about the contextual meaning of the 2 verses, you actually mean to include at minimum, the entire Chapter of Colossians 2? I have learned that the proof-texting we did in Adventism was to our severe detriment and was one of the ways the leadership was able to get us to swallow their doctrines. But to your question. I'll refer you to a good exposition and exegesis done on Colossians 2 specifically on those verses. It was written to specifically answer--from Scripture--the arguments we as Adventists would throw at people. Let me know if this helps. http://wp.me/P1tilv-nU (Message edited by wiredog on October 01, 2011) | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1334 Registered: 5-2007 |
Thank You Wiredog. I read the exposition. This helps. I still need to tie in what James means by the law of liberty. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2169 Registered: 7-2007 |
The law of liberty is the law of the Spirit Who lives in us. That's the law of love. Jim; All that fear and questioning seems to be keeping you from the peace you'd have, if you knew Jesus. If you were to die tonight, where would you be? Jesus is the peace for all your anxiety. Jesus is the safety for all your fears. Jesus is ALL you need! (Message edited by Asurprise on October 01, 2011) | ||
| Christo Registered user Username: Christo Post Number: 277 Registered: 2-2008 |
Jim, The law given at Sinai is not the law of liberty even though Adventist purport so. Scripture tells us in Gelatins 4: 24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. Did you see that, the law given at Sinai gendereth to bondage. Sometimes if you can eliminate possible-i- ties, it narrows down the choices. The law of liberty cannot be something that gendereth to bondage. There is nothing quite so liberating as to love. For the love of Christ, Chris | ||
| Thegoldenway Registered user Username: Thegoldenway Post Number: 157 Registered: 5-2011 |
Jim, I am claiming and praying Paul's prayer for you. It's in Ephesians 3:16-21. 'I pray that out of His glorious riches He may strenthen you with power through His Spirit in your inner being so that Christ may dwell in your heart through faith. And I pray that you being rooted and established in love may have power together with all the Lord's holy people to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ and to know this love that surpasses knowledge--that you may be filled to the measeure of all the fullness of God. Now to Him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine according to His power that is at work within us to Him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations forever and ever! Amen.' I can tell you are struggling to discover the 'right' answers. But have you considered that maybe for the present moment God doesn't want to give you the 'right' answers but perhaps He is wanting you to just rest and experience His love for you. God isn't looking for people with all the right answers or for perfect understanding of His word. He is looking for relationship. He is looking for people who are willing to let Him love on them. Don't be afraid. God accepts you.....even in the confused state you are in right now. Just let Him be God and let Him lavish you with His love and let yourself go and experience Him....His presence, His love, His compassion, His mercy, His grace. Maybe.....just maybe this is all He is looking for with you at this time. Maybe He wants to just establish this foundation with you before He reveals anything else to you. Maybe this is what you really need right now for healing ...... something that 'right' answers can't give you at this time. Just a thought  lynn | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 9442 Registered: 3-2004  |
Jim, one of the things I gladly gave up, when God took me out of adventism, was the right to have all the answers. I can gladly say now, I do not know, but I will study it. Or I will say is that a salvation issue. God has not cleared up all questions I have and that is okay with me. The important one is answered and that is Jesus is all I need. He teaches me what He wants me to know. I trust Him right now and have since I left adventism. His peace is so good. Diana L | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1338 Registered: 5-2007 |
Asurprise, You present the test, if I die tonight, where would I be? It is my hope in faith that Christ has me safe in His keeping. The fact that I still battle with confusions, fear and doubts does not mean that I have no faith or hope in Christ. What I do not have is peace because I continue to read from scripture in circles. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1339 Registered: 5-2007 |
Wiredog, This is a recurring point. The pitfalls of proof texting. I pondered this today. The proposition essentially is , if a passage is read and comprehended in context. It often may mean something different, or be applied differently instead of the apparent statement from a isolated passage. Thus, it is also suggested , that a specific passage does not in these cases mean what they say. The problem with this is instructions are then left to endless varietys of interpretation. If I say, drive on Hwy 1, till you get to B street and turn right. But I really mean turn left , since a half hour later I will tell you that when I say left , I really mean right. Then I am setting you up for errors and miscommunication. Take for example the classic statement by the Apostle Paul. "Do we then make void the law of God through faith? God forbid, we establish the law!" Now let's run this through the contextual processor: J: Do we then make void the law of God through faith? (Why yes we do!, because we are not under the law, the law ended at the cross, all law ended. Thus , we may make void the law in it's written form and apply it Spiritualy. In doing so, we are at Liberty now to change the day of worship to any day we choose. We no longer need the tutor of the law. We no longer require a standard. We no longer need a law to tell us what sin is.) God forbid, we establish the law! (We establish a Spiritual law, a sense of right and wrong by the inner promptings of God's Spirit, by the capacity and sensibilities of Love. In so doing we establish a unwritten law, not "the law" , we have a new law, we call it the law of liberty.) So in an attempt to be fair and not sarcastic. I have shown the gap between a simple understanding and instead inserted a reinterpreted contexual meaning. To a Jew. I would have thought this statement. "Do we then make void the law of God through faith? God forbid, we establish the law!" would mean plainly what it says. The same law 10C is hands off. We do not change it. We establish it. Contextually, we go about living in Grace but the aim is unchanged. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2174 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim; have you accepted Jesus as your Savior? | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2175 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim; the law is still in effect for unbelievers, and un-believers are under it's condemnation. However when a person gets saved, they die to the law. They are no longer under it. It's like a woman who's husband dies. She can get married again. Before that, she would have been an adulteress. Notice this passage in Romans 7:2-4. "For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage. Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress. Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to Him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God." Romans 7:2-4 Also, why would you bring up someone "changing the Sabbath day?" Didn't you know that the "day" is now a Person - Jesus? See Colossians 2:16-17 (Adventists have chosen the food and drink and day over the Person - Jesus, as you see by this passage. Just like atheists start with the presupposition that there is no God. Adventists start with the presupposition that Ellen White is a true prophet. Otherwise, they would realize this. And teaching that someone should observe ANY day is wrong.) "Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. Colossians 2:16-17 I would like to point out something that the Bible says, that cannot be "interpreted" more than one way. It's the fact that the Bible says Salvation is a free gift. "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23 Jim; do you have to do something to merit/achieve/earn a free gift? | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1285 Registered: 7-2004 |
Jim, An additional question about that free gift. Would you call something a gift if there were strings attached requiring you to work for years in order to keep that gift? | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1287 Registered: 7-2004 |
Jim, We absolutely establish the law. We proclaim loudly that the Law has condemned everyone as being a sinner. Exactly like Paul says in that same chapter. The Jews, by breaking the law that they claimed to keep were the ones who did not truly uphold or establish the Law. This is exactly how Jesus magnified the Law. Not to show people what to do, but to convict them of their sinfulness. We agree 100% that the Law establishes that all are sinners. But this is the limit of what the Law can do. It can not reconcile us to God, can not save us, can not change us, can not justify us, and can not sanctify us. The plain words make sense, as long as you read the entire context. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1343 Registered: 5-2007 |
Does anyone know of a passage that says we cannot arrive at a point or state in our lifetime as flesh human beings where anyone is successful at finally keeping the law, or finally free of sin. The OT seems to have demanded it continously and even in the NT one passage says come to your senses and stop sinning. Is being sin free, as in no longer sinning possible , expected , or does scripture actually say, it is not literally possible nor literally expected? | ||
| Wiredog Registered user Username: Wiredog Post Number: 266 Registered: 8-2010 |
Brother Jim02, At what point does it become sufficient after reading all Scripture in its context, to take it at face value? Like you, I have read the same Bible and read the same Gospel. I suspect like you I want to make sure I have exhausted every possible meaning of a Scripture, you can begin at Genesis 1:1 and at some point you will come to Revelation 22:21, the end of the Bible. There is no more to go on and no less to go on you have read it all. Like the Hymn says--"What more can He say than to you He hath said—To you who for refuge to Jesus have fled?" Even in doing so there will be things you don't currently understand and as you grow In Christ, with Christ as your Savior the Holy Spirit will reveal these things to as you mature. However, FIRST JIM02, you must believe that Jesus Christ can save you, believe in Jesus + NOTHING ELSE. JIM02 do you claim Jesus Christ as your Savior and that on His account alone you are saved? If you have then, come all else whether you choose to keep the Jewish Sabbath or the Lord's Day whether you figure out that Ellen was a false prophet or not, whether you manage to live a sinless life or not IT DOES NOT MATTER. Others may disagree with what I am saying but I believe Romans 10 Specifically v 9-13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2010:9-13&version=NASB) 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.” Brother Jim02, settle that first, and I sincerely believe the Holy Spirit will settle the other things for your or render those others as periphery. I say this in all care and concern--I may be in error in my discernment so forgive me if I have indeed rushed to judgement--I sense you wish to settle ALL these "issues" first before accepting that which has already been settled for you. Cheers, Ben | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1288 Registered: 7-2004 |
Ben, Even if flames follow, I stand by your post 100%. Christ is ALL that we need. When we have Him, He assures us that He will work everything together for good. I believe He does this on His schedule, not ours. | ||
| Gcfrankie Registered user Username: Gcfrankie Post Number: 831 Registered: 1-2007 |
Jim02, I am reading a good book and what the auther said about Grace vs Law: Law Keep the commandments (rules) and one escapes the penalty; breaking the commandments and one suffers the penalty. Grace: Break the commandments and one escapes the penalty; keep the commandments one suffers penalty. Grace is not fair. Something else the author said is it was the law that killed Jesus not the Jews. Jesus kept all the laws and ceremonies and because of the law being the killer (all laws including the 10's)are fulfilled. Think about this and that is God allowed Jesus to be crushed (God could have stopped it) to build a bridge between Heaven and earth. I hope some of this helps you. Please get away from the proof-texting we were all taught as it really muddies the waters and Jesus real truth. Gail | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2178 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim; here's a verse that says that the apostle Paul was working on it. Remember, he told the believers that they had been saved, so obviously he was saved, though he was still working on it. "Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own." Philippians 3:12 Here's a verse that warns believers to NOT think they are without sin... "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." 1st John 1:8 | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1290 Registered: 7-2004 |
Jim here are some other things to consider (along with the 2 excellent referenes Asurprise provided for you) about whether the Bible teaches that we can live without sin. Perfect obedience would also require that we consistently and continually act with exactly the same amount of love that Jesus has shown. There is nothing to suggest that anything less than total and perfect obedience in all ways is acceptable in God's judgment. Most protestants and evangelicals emphasizes that our salvation is based on the perfect obedience of the One (Rom 5:19-21) and our acknowledgement that we fall short (Rom 3:23; I Tim 1:15) and continue to need that grace. Seventh-day Adventists counter this teaching by noting the people in the Bible that were referred to as “blameless” suggesting that they had perfect obedience and so can we (Gen 6:9, Gen 17:1, Job 1:1, and Luke 1:6). Noah is pronounced blameless, or righteous depending on the translation, before the flood. After the flood, his actions are not blameless (Gen 9:21). In Gen 17:1 Abraham is counted among the blameless and his name change occurs. Yet in Chapter 20 he again misleads a king about the relationship between he and Sarah. While it can be argued that he wasn't technically lying; nonetheless, his actions in this regard directly led another person into sin. That is hardly the action of a perfect person. OT Scripture demonstrates that "blameless" people still committed sinful acts. The most reasonable conclusion is that the status of being blameless is an imputed pronouncement ("reckoned") rather than a behavioral statement (Heb 11:6-19; Rom 4:1-11). Paul considered himself to be the foremost among sinners (I Tim 1:15). He used the present tense indicating that he thought that was still his deserved status. One could hardly content that Paul’s actions were more sin-filled than those around him. The most reasonable conclusion seems to be that Paul says this because of his keen recognition of the gap between his own life and the perfectness of Christ. Paul didn’t make this statement because of his humility. Instead, he points to the need we have in recognizing our own imperfection so that we can appreciate the unwarranted grace that continues to be given to us. Paul is clear that perfection is something that occurs in our future. He says that we are sown in dishonor and weakness (I Cor 15:43). This is clearly referring to the fact that until the total change that occurs with glorification, we are not perfect beings and that we all must be changed at that time in order to spend eternity with God. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13012 Registered: 12-2003  |
I agree 100% with Ben, Rick, and Asurprise above, Jim. Believing in Jesus and trusting Him for your salvation is ALL the security you need. Jim, you have to surrender your need to KNOW. If you know Jesus, He will reveal truth to you over time. He will apply His word to your life. I had to give up my "right" to understand everything. You have to be willing to let Him take your need to have it all figured out. You have to be willing to live understanding NOTHING except the Lord Jesus has died and risen for your sake. Nothing. He will not leave you there...but as you give up your frantic need to understand and just spend time on a few verses at a time, asking Him to teach you truth and reality, He will. You don't even have to figure out what those few verses mean; just let the words simmer in your mind and heart and submit them to Him. Just tell Him you have no clue how to know what is real, and release to Him your fear. Submit your heart and mind to Him, and Jim--He keeps His promises. He WILL teach you truth and reality. It will happen slowly, almost "organically", over time. Sometimes you may be overwhelmed when you realize something you didn't know before; other times (most of the time, probably!) you will just realize that your confusion is becoming less and less and you KNOW you belong to Him and have already been transferred to His eternal kingdom. It's OK to relax your NEED TO KNOW. Just sit with Him and His word, and let Him teach you in whatever way and at whatever speed He knows you need. It's OK not to have the answers. All you need is Jesus. He Himself is truth, and He reveals Himself as you just calmly sit with His word. Give up your need to contrast what you used to know with what you ought to know. God knows what you need to learn! (And yes, you do have to give up your right to re-examine false prophets to see if they make sense...) Colleen | ||
| Handmaiden Registered user Username: Handmaiden Post Number: 257 Registered: 7-2008 |
What was taken away at the cross? Jesus took all of my sin debt Jesus took all of my punishment Jesus took all of my judgment and condemnation Jesus took all of the wrath of God that was to be poured out against me Jesus took the death all of my sin had earned Jesus took down every barrier and removed all separation between God and me. Jesus took everything that prevented me from being with God for eternity. He did it allllllllllllllll | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1347 Registered: 5-2007 |
Thank you all. Trying to adsorb it. Jim | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 396 Registered: 2-2006 |
What was taken away? Being a hostage, slave, and chained to sin, darkness, and the Devil: "to open their eyes, [in order] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me." Act 26:18 "I have come [as] a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness." John 12:46 "He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed [us] into the kingdom of the Son of His love," Colossians 1:13 And many other verses. Try placing key words into the Blue Letter Bible and find the treasures of Scripture apart from the SDA paradigm. (the version of your choice): http://www.blueletterbible.org/ "But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man." Galatians 1:11 These are only understood through the Holy Spirit in us, preceding from the Father. NOT OUR OWN INTELLECT (Which SDA's place as supreme in practice, if not always in weasel words). Jim, your intellect is moot. As is mine and even genius IQ's. "Christ in me" convicts me of the most subtle of sins (I have many), so much more than the external earth rock of 10 commandments could. Just following those is pretty easy. The sins of and in the heart and thoughts--not so easy. Pride and Self have made us all their Prey. But we are delivered from that chain to them! Believe and trust what Scripture says plainly, Jim. Tell God you know nothing, then see what he teaches you, when you are out of the way. What more can be said? If you cannot take Scripture at face value, Jim, how can any of our words and beliefs help you? With Christian love, Cathy |
