| Author | Message | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1355 Registered: 5-2007 |
Where there is no law there is no sin. Is this a true statement? The Apostle Paul said this. Then he said the law through sin that it defined killed him. In another place he says that he died to the law. In another he says he is not under the law. But he points out that he is under the Law of Christ. The SDA teach that without the law there is NO sin. The law is the standard that defines sin. Is that true? What is the law of Christ? Is it an abstract statement? There is no written law spelled out for the Law of Christ unless it is the same law as before. Which is the SDA implication. Most of us here on the forum take the teachings of Paul as ending the law entirely at the cross. Yet most of us are not without law. | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 868 Registered: 10-2006 |
Jim, the purpose of the law is no longer to condemn us. The purpose of the law is to show us our sin. There is a huge difference between the two. In Christ, there is no condemnation. Noone can keep the law as it needs to be kept. Paul says he would not know coveting is wrong except for the law. The law shows us our sin and need for a Savior. The law still has a purpose, but that purpose is totally different for Adventists and Christians. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1987 Registered: 6-2006  |
Jim, is it possible to know right from wrong without having the 10 Commandments/Sabbath? What if I lived in the Bible days as a gentile my whole life and never had the same law as the Jews. Then lets say I met Jesus. If I wanted to follow him, where would I start? Would I have to become a Jew first, or would it be possible to just follow Jesus' command to love my God and then love my neighbor? Would love to know your answer. (You can use scripture if you prefer) (Message edited by grace_alone on October 10, 2011) | ||
| Cortney Registered user Username: Cortney Post Number: 282 Registered: 8-2006 |
Galatians 5:18- "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law". In Galatians (I think) Paul taught that the "Law of Christ" is to carry one another's burdens. Are you sealed by the Holy Spirit? All believers are promised the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit convicts us of the "wrong" in our lives-God within our hearts-, the Law specifically pointed out sin and served as a "tutor"- the Law did not convict the heart of sinful actions/desires/thoughts/motives, etc.. Which would you rather have- "God within" convicting, comforting and teaching you or the "old written code", which served a purpose to a "certain people" at a "certain time"- but, something better has come. John 14:26 "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you" John 16:8-11 "And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgement of sin, because they believe not on me; of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; of judgement, because the prince of the world is judged." Romans 8:26 "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with the groanings which cannot be uttered." | ||
| Cortney Registered user Username: Cortney Post Number: 283 Registered: 8-2006 |
There was no law until sin came full force. Likewise, where there is "no law", there is "no sin". But, there is sin in our world... God is love. God means love. His character is defined by His love. (most of us believed the Law/10 commandments defined God's character) Are we under the Law of Moses or Christ? The Law of Christ is Love-of God foremost and neighbor, then self. Christ loved His Father first, then mankind and beyond anything we can grasp-unto His death. Should we not do the same, so we fulfill the Law of Christ? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13030 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jim, Paul did not say, "Where there is no law there is no sin." Here's what he said in Romans 5:12-14:
Do you see the difference? Sin was in the world long before the law came. Sin was in the world ever since Adam sinned, and every single human ever born (except the Lord Jesus) has been conceived in sin, born dead, and in need of the rebirth. Individual sins were not imputed to people who had no knowledge what those sins were...the law came to remove all doubt and to clearly declare people guilty of sin. But even (as Leigh Anne above is pointing out) gentiles who did not have the law millennia ago still had a knowledge of what was right and what was wrong. This knowledge, Paul says, was instinctive (Rom. 2:14-15). God created humans with a sense of morality. Now that Jesus has come, the law is not necessary, because the law has taken on flesh, and the Lord Jesus has put Himself in believers. The Holy Spirit is present in the world in a way He was not before Christ died and rose and sent the Spirit at Pentecost. The Holy Spirit who has come with new power and personal -ness is the One who convicts the world of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment (Jn. 16:8-10). The entirety of Scripture teaches us and convicts us, because the Holy Spirit, its Author, knows how to drive it home to our hearts and minds when we submit to Him. Israel had the special revelation of the Law foreshadowing God's purposes and plan to send a Sacrifice for sin and to undo death and restore life to humanity. The church has the special revelation of the Risen Christ who has permanently attached us to Himself through the indwelling Holy Spirit in all those who trust Him. The revelation of reality is much greater for the church than it was for Israel because God has reconciled us to Himself in Christ, and we can now be literally attached to Him. None of this was possible when Israel lived under the law. Colleen | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1358 Registered: 5-2007 |
Joyfulheart: Jim, the purpose of the law is no longer to condemn us. J: What passage makes that statement. I know of , there is no condemantion in Christ. But I fail to link that to releasing the law. The purpose of the law is to show us our sin. J: It is effective, but does that become a mute point or still valid in any reality? There is a huge difference between the two. In Christ, there is no condemnation. Noone can keep the law as it needs to be kept. J: I agree, at least by experience, but not by guilt or ideally speaking. Where does scripture target this conclusion? Where does scripture target this conclusion? Where does scripture target this conclusion? I need to know this answer. The SDA teach that puting away all sin as defined by the law is still an objective and expectation. But this teaching sets this conflict aside. Yet , in application, I fail to grasp it because I am unable to detect permission for that path from scripture. On one hand I too see that keeping the law in it's perfection is apparently not humanly possible. But within our sphere as EGW puts it, what does God expect of us. How much is enough and what are the specifics if not the revealed law itself which includes Sabbath. If I set aside the law as a means to guide my behaviour, I am relieved from even processing it and thus being perplexed and confused by it, unable to obtain to it anyway. I see these things!!! But having permission to drop that payload, I fail to conclude because of circular references to the law in the NT as models for behaviour. If sin is sin with our without the law. It is still sin. If the law includes sin identified. Then sin is included in that law. If I set aside the law, the sins the law once identified are still sin. With or without the law. The bible says stop sinning. That means all sin, including the sins known by the law. Which is why we say the Sabbath was a shadow law. A temporary law. But it is nested in the Tablets. The Payload container. I drop all of it , or none of it. Circles............ | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1988 Registered: 6-2006 |
Jim, Are you going to answer my questions too? Thanks | ||
| Pnoga Registered user Username: Pnoga Post Number: 487 Registered: 1-2007  |
Jim, Let me ask you a few questions... Do you not murder others because the law says so, or because in your heart, you know it's wrong? Before you knew of the law, did you want to murder someone? If you had the thought you wanted to murder someone, not that I am saying you do, but if you did, Would you actually do it? Would you stop yourself and say "Oh Darn, even though I want to, I can't because one of the 10 commandments says not to". Wouldn't the thought of murdering someone reveal a condition of your heart or mind, and how is that much different than actually committing the act? Other than someone actually being murdered, the problem still is within ourselves. Sure, a person was murdered and life taken from them, but that still doesn't resolve where the problem lies, and that is sin. Sin starts within, with a thought, the action is the result not the cause. So a command to not murder is not able to stop sin, all it can do is reveal it. When you focus on written codes that are used to condemn (2 Cor 3) all you will do is experience failure, then fear because you cannot accomplish the law. That explains why the commandments on the tablets are mostly negative Thall shall not! All it can do is condemn and reveal. Yes it is still wrong to murder. But a person who relies totally on Christ and trusts Him, through the Spirit will have a changed heart. A changed heart does not need a commandment to tell them do not murder, nor will it govern them. As they will have compassion for others and reflect the Love of Christ for others. God is love, therefore God's law is love, and Christ was the exact expression of God's love for us, therefor Christ is God's law, and Jesus does not condemn. You need to focus on Christ's love and not your actions and deeds and the rest will follow. Living by the Spirit is what works, as it changes you from the inside out. Living by the letter will always dissapoint as working from the outside in will never change us, as our flesh is weak, and sin will always prevail. Written law does not change people or stop them from breaking it, It is only used to point out that they have already done so, or used to judge them and sentence them. God's law is love expressed through Jesus and it is much bigger than the 10 commandments and much deeper, and the only hope man has for a changed heart is to continually have Jesus in their heart. Paul | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13033 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jim, I'd like to see you answers to Leigh Anne's and Paul's questions, too. And yes, Jim--I agree. Either you drop the whole container or none of it. Here's what you're missing: salvation is all about God, not you. He doesn't care one whit if you're smoking or carousing or embezzling when He decides to bring you to life. He makes us alive with Christ when we are dead in our sin (Eph. 2:4-6). After we are alive, we KNOW it. His Spirit gives us Christ's resurrection life, and He confirms that we are God's children. Then the issue of sin becomes clear. We are no longer dead in sin. God convicts us moment by moment of our attitudes and behaviors and we stop carousing and embezzling and even make things right. But it's all a result of being born again. It's not a means of staying saved. Salvation is about God. Even our new birth is not primarily for us; it's for God's glory, and we begin to live for Him--we don't live for good behavior. Catholicism and Adventism say that we have to stop sinning in order to stay saved. If we relax our discipline, we lose grace and lose salvation. This teaching is not in the Bible. When we are born again, God literally sees Jesus, not us. We aren't righteous because of our ceasing to sin. God looks at Jesus and gives us the credit for His goodness. Period. But being born again means letting go of what we think we know. It means risking losing ourselves and admitting we might not recognize our lives or our beliefs--but we need Jesus. Jim, give up the struggle. Throw yourself on Jesus and tell Him you'll only do what He directs you to do. Let Him give you life...and if He already has, you must stop obsessing. If you have received the Lord Jesus, you are refusing to rest by refusing to live in trust that He has completed everything. He IS your rest. There's a decision involved. You must decide to trust Him instead of ceaselessly analyzing. I admit that the nature of your questions makes me wonder if you really have trusted Jesus as your Lord and the One who is completely in charge of you. We have to give up our right to ourselves, Jim. We have to get over ourselves and admit we don't understand how reality "works". We just have to trust jesus means what He says and put our weight down on Him. Period. All you need is Jesus. When you realize you are hidden in Him, His word becomes completely different. It's no longer confusing. The NT is written to people who have given up their rights to themselves and have taken on the literal identity of Christ. When you are 100% committed to belong to Him and accept His will in your life, whatever that looks like, His word begins to make sense. It's not guilting you. Your guilt was completely eradicated in Jesus on the cross. The NT is explaining how to surrender your flesh to Him. But it doesn't work and it CAN'T work if you haven't received Him and trusted Him with everything. He is with you, Jim. Colleen | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1359 Registered: 5-2007 |
I want to process my response in sequence. Bear with me. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1360 Registered: 5-2007 |
Grace_alone: Jim, is it possible to know right from wrong without having the 10 Commandments/Sabbath? J: Yes. A moral instinct is a valid concept. That sense of right and wrong. Even logic may play a factor. But I think Love is universal in all nations and cultures. We have a law unto ourselves, our conscience convicting or aquitting us. G: What if I lived in the Bible days as a gentile my whole life and never had the same law as the Jews. Then lets say I met Jesus. If I wanted to follow him, where would I start? J: I would start by sitting at the feet of Jesus and listening. J: "If ye love me keep my commandments." Though this was likely spoken to a Jewish gathering. The Samaritan woman met Jesus at the well. John4:22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.” righteous proselyte gate proselyte See ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proselyte A Gentile could be taken into a Jewish faith system to one degree or another. Required to observe certain laws as a minimum or to a higher level all the laws. Jesus said at the end of His earthly ministry: 16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” "teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." G: Would I have to become a Jew first, or would it be possible to just follow Jesus' command to love my God and then love my neighbor? J: I do not think you would have to become a Jew. But if you were a gentile living at the time of Christ among the Jews. And you were following Jesus. That you wanted to be saved, included, then I would think you would observe and keep the commandemnts. The question here is whether the gospel itself sets aside the law all together. After the cross, did the law end. We know that the sacrifice and oblation ceased. The temple veil was torn in two. And that is as far as I get to that conclusion regarding the 10C law ending. The Catholics and Lutherans, still teach the law in an edited form. But the fact remains, they teach the 10C format. This is why I am not so sure that the 10C are also set aside. I am trying to see if I can realize this by repeated coverage of the scriptures, by prayer and by asking God to reveal the truth to me. One thing is certain, at least to me, scripture is either blazingly simple or extremely complex and impossible to understand without God's help. Jim | ||
| Nowhitehats Registered user Username: Nowhitehats Post Number: 48 Registered: 4-2010 |
Jim, I really like what Hebrews has to say about what happened to the law. Remember, Hebrews has a lot to say about how Jesus is a better priest, after an entirely different order or lineage. The author clearly creates a hierarchy, placing the Levitical priesthood as the foundation for the people to receive the law (for under it the people received the law). Do you see it? The law was actually built on top of the Levitical priesthood. Next, he says that when the priesthood changes (from one tribe to another), there also is a change in the law too. Hebrews is saying that there is a new foundation to replace the old. Jesus is that new foundation. Here's the catch to this. It absolutely does not work to try and ascribe the laws built on top of the Levitical priesthood to Jesus' new priesthood. Why is that? Look at what the writer says next about this new priest from the new tribe. "...in connection with that tribe Moses said nothing about priests." What does Moses have to say about this new priesthood - absolutely nothing! Moses and the laws he gave do not speak for the new covenant. Bottom line - you can't bring the old laws and lay them over the new priesthood. It just doesn't work. And don't ask Moses because he has nothing to say on this matter. Jesus provides true freedom from the law! Hope this made sense. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1989 Registered: 6-2006 |
Jim, Am I right in understanding that every time Jesus said "keep my commandments" he's talking about the 10 Commandments? You have said many times that you need scripture that specifically reads "the 10 Commandments were done away" (even though several scriptures say that the law was done away). At the same time, I don't see where Jesus ever said "Keep the 10 Commandments." If I were to follow your line of reasoning, then I would have to start keeping Passover too. Jesus observed the Feast of Passover faithfully. Passover was a commandment: Exodus 12:14 “This is a day you are to commemorate; for the generations to come you shall celebrate it as a festival to the LORD—a lasting ordinance. 15 For seven days you are to eat bread made without yeast. On the first day remove the yeast from your houses, for whoever eats anything with yeast in it from the first day through the seventh must be cut off from Israel. 16 On the first day hold a sacred assembly, and another one on the seventh day. Do no work at all on these days, except to prepare food for everyone to eat; that is all you may do. 17 “Celebrate the Festival of Unleavened Bread, because it was on this very day that I brought your divisions out of Egypt. Celebrate this day as a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. 18 In the first month you are to eat bread made without yeast, from the evening of the fourteenth day until the evening of the twenty-first day. 19 For seven days no yeast is to be found in your houses. And anyone, whether foreigner or native-born, who eats anything with yeast in it must be cut off from the community of Israel. 20 Eat nothing made with yeast. Wherever you live, you must eat unleavened bread.” Exodus 12:24 “Obey these instructions as a lasting ordinance for you and your descendants. 25 When you enter the land that the LORD will give you as he promised, observe this ceremony. 26 And when your children ask you, ‘What does this ceremony mean to you?’ 27 then tell them, ‘It is the Passover sacrifice to the LORD, who passed over the houses of the Israelites in Egypt and spared our homes when he struck down the Egyptians.’” Then the people bowed down and worshiped. 28 The Israelites did just what the LORD commanded Moses and Aaron. Passover is a command that God said to "Obey" and called it "A Lasting Ordinence." Are you as concerned about Passover as you are keeping the Sabbath? I can replace "Keep my Commandments" with "Keep Passover" if the word commandment is interchangable as you are inferring. Please also explain why you brought up the Samaritan woman. Jesus was passing through Samaria and the whole point of that passage was him telling the woman that he was the living water. Please show me how you fit her following Jewish law (the 10 Commandments) into the story? I'm having a hard time understanding. Am I supposed read into the passage and assume that's what it meant? Thanks On a side note ~ Seriously. I really don't appreciate when you say that Lutherans teach the 10 Commandments. I have been a Lutheran for 44 years and can assure you that the 10 Commandments are not "taught" like the SDA system. The 10 C's are mentioned and referred to, just like the story of Noah and the story of Abraham and examples as such because they are a part of the Bible. I believe you use that statement to support your argument (or need, it seems) to uphold the law/10 Commandments. I will appreciate if you would please stop. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1361 Registered: 5-2007 |
Hello Cortney, Galatians 5:18- "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law". J: I am not sure what "under the law" means exactly. In Galatians (I think) Paul taught that the "Law of Christ" is to carry one another's burdens. J: I don't know for sure. I know when Christ cited the two laws of Love for God and Each other. He was quoting from existing passages in the OT. The thing I note is He said , on these (two) hang all the law and prophets. He did not say, override, cancel, supercede. He said the other laws hang on them. As in effectively become spokes or supports beams to those two principals laws or concepts of life. C:Are you sealed by the Holy Spirit? All believers are promised the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. J: I believe I am , though it is a hope rather than a solid evidential conviction. Because I do not assume that I cannot be lost if I fall away or fail Christ in some way through confusion or unbelief. C: The Holy Spirit convicts us of the "wrong" in our lives-God within our hearts-, the Law specifically pointed out sin and served as a "tutor"- the Law did not convict the heart of sinful actions/desires/thoughts/motives, etc.. Which would you rather have- "God within" convicting, comforting and teaching you or the "old written code", which served a purpose to a "certain people" at a "certain time"- but, something better has come. J: This is a two edge question. The law was rather simplistic until you tried to keep it perfectly. When Christ magnified the law, it became evident that we have a long way to go in being changed to keep it from the heart. Even at that, I think that the war against the flesh, the weakness of humanity, makes even our best effort to love rightly and live by Grace still lacking. Without Christ, we fall short, no matter what. But , it also appears to me that we have manadatory guidlines about God's will and I am not yet at peace about the Sabbath question or the laws in the general sense. I am trying to let go of them, if that is God's guiding will. You asked which I would rather have. My logic side wants to be able to know specifics, but my heart wants to hear God's heart speaking to my soul. Where judgement and condemnation do not even become a question. Where my actions and the way I think and react are under His control. Where fear does not exist. Where love overflows. C:John 14:26 "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you" J: Paul talked about those having a weak conscience. Which is to say, overly sensitive. How does this happen. Is it a character, enviromental or taught behaviour? I know there is sin in my life everyday. That may be why I cannot hear the truth correctly. I have to do better. That is how I usually think. John 16:8-11 "And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgement of sin, because they believe not on me; of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; of judgement, because the prince of the world is judged." J: I do not understand the whole of the above. Romans 8:26 "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with the groanings which cannot be uttered." J: This I understand , and very much depend on God's Spirit to speak through my confusion and failings. | ||
| Kelleigh Registered user Username: Kelleigh Post Number: 148 Registered: 7-2011  |
Jim asked, "What is the law of Christ?" Compare the 10 Commandments with Jesus Sermon on the Mount - Jesus raises the bar really, really high! 'If you are angry with a brother then you are guilty of murder'. 'Blessed are the pure in heart for they will see God' Consider Jesus audience. It was Jewish. The standard of righteous according to devout Jews was encapsulated by 613 rules - 248 commands (including the 10 Commandments), 365 prohibitions and reinforced by 1,521 emendations! If that wasn't difficult enough - Jesus raised the bar even higher! 'If you look at a woman with lust you have committed adultery with her in your heart'. 'If someone strikes you on one cheek offer him the other' Still Jesus audience were regularly terrorised and abused by Roman soldiers. Forget about the Pharisees and of the 'law of Moses' - Jesus new standards are way tougher. Yet Jesus also said 'Come unto Me all you who labour and are heavy laden and I will give you rest. My yoke is easy and my burden is light'. But the Sermon on the Mount doesn't sound easy or light. Why did Jesus raise the bar of righteousness so impossibly high? Is the Sermon on the Mount another set of legal requirements? I do not believe so. Actually, it would be a calamity to turn the Sermon on the Mount into another form of legalism. It should put an end to all legalism! Firstly, Jesus' Sermon on the Mount demonstrates the limitation of the 'law' in defining God's righteousness. The Rich Young Ruler believed he was righteous because he was obedient to the law. Did this impress Jesus? (Do you think our law keeping will impress Jesus)? Jesus wasn’t impressed. He raised the bar. 'Sell all you have and give to the poor and come and follow Me'. Whoa! Who does that? Even the apostles had homes and some had wives and children to support too. Jesus was often misunderstood because He spoke in parables. Only Jesus Only Jesus gave up everything – He sold everything to save us. Only Jesus is perfectly righteous. ‘The foxes have dens but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head’. Jesus was the One who 'turned the other cheek' to the Roman soldiers. <b>The Sermon on the Mount is about Jesus Righteousness</b>. The Righteousness He offers us through the Gospel. The Sermon on the Mount reveals how utterly futile it is for any of us to reach that standard. Read it. Think about it. Imagine trying to be pure in heart 24/7 for a start. If anyone thinks they can do that - and puts it on their'must do list' - they'll eventually get bent out of shape, despondent and depressed. Jesus Sermon on the Mount demonstrates that it is impossible - utterly futile - for humans to meet the righteous requirements of God. We need grace. The Sermon on the Mount is the great leveller - everyone from tax collectors to Pharisees, prostitutes to disciples (even the Essenes who would not defecate during the Sabbath hours to honor it). All need the Grace of God through the Gospel of Christ. The rich and the down-and-out; the 'good' and the 'bad'. We have all fallen from the absolute ideal of righteousness and we have “nowhere to land but in the safety net of absolute Grace" When I realised that we absolutely cannot meet the requirements of Christ's law -when this concept REALLY SANK IN - all the arguments about 'what is sin' - and 'what we should be doing' and 'shouldn’t be doing' came into perspective. I stopped stressing and put my faith in Jesus my Righteousness! I think if we can understand Jesus, then we can understand Paul. Hope this helps. (Message edited by Kelleigh on October 13, 2011) | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1362 Registered: 5-2007 |
Hello Colleen, Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- C: Do you see the difference? J: No, I am missing the point. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1363 Registered: 5-2007 |
Hi Nowhitehats, For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God. (Hebrews 7:11-19 ESV J: This is my conflict. Hebrews makes an argument, but there is precious little to identify the prior precedent or setup that would grant authority in the OT to conclude the law is changed in the NT. I interpret most every passage about a change in the law as meaning all the laws except the 10C. But I am willing to attempt to learn that the 10C also ended. I just can't lock it in. If I turn to Grace and let go of law, I might be in error and guilty of not obeying God's commandments. If I turn to the Law (10C) with Grace combined as a means by which to attain to a continually growing sanctification process, then I may be guilty of spiritual adultery in attempting to serve two masters. The law and grace. If I turn to law, 10C. By itself. I deny Christ. I know the third option is out of the question. It is option 1 and 2 taht cause my confusion. I "need" to know if the 10C have been canceled. Completely, totally and I need to be able to prove it scripturaly. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1364 Registered: 5-2007 |
Hello Paul, Do you not murder others because the law says so, or because in your heart, you know it's wrong? J:I would say both. But I get your point, obviously Love for others would make such a thought abhorent. But , have you ever lost your temper with someone? Jesus magnified this point. P: . Sin starts within, with a thought, the action is the result not the cause. A changed heart does not need a commandment to tell them do not murder, nor will it govern them. As they will have compassion for others and reflect the Love of Christ for others. God is love, therefore God's law is love, and Christ was the exact expression of God's love for us, therefor Christ is God's law, and Jesus does not condemn. J: I agree with your expressions, but not able completely settled on the extended conclusions. P: You need to focus on Christ's love and not your actions and deeds and the rest will follow. J: That sounds like a good idea. Even if I do not understand it in application or effect. P: Living by the Spirit is what works, as it changes you from the inside out. J: I get this somedays, then some days I don't. I cannot explain why this happens. P: Living by the letter will always dissapoint as working from the outside in will never change us, as our flesh is weak, and sin will always prevail. J: This seems to be the case both ways. Habits, weakness, fears, addictive behaviours etc,,, they do not just go away. One of the attributes, fruits, is self control. Self control is kind of like keeping the law. That may be the tripping point, why I tend to see the law as a discipline. P: Written law does not change people or stop them from breaking it, It is only used to point out that they have already done so, or used to judge them and sentence them. God's law is love expressed through Jesus and it is much bigger than the 10 commandments and much deeper, and the only hope man has for a changed heart is to continually have Jesus in their heart. J: I have to discover if the 10C are no longer a mirror. While I may live by Grace. if the mirror shows me in violation of any of the 10. Then sin still exists. If by Grace I am covered even in these failings, where is the scripture that shows that. It shows we are forgiven and we have an Advocate with The Father. What I do not find is convincing peace that says, my ongoing sins do not condemn me or cost my salvation. Even if I do not use the 10C. I still knwo what sin is. I still know when something is not right. Hwo do I relate to that? How do I draw near to God expecting His covering when I just lost my temper, or fell in a temptation? The SDA model the 10C as do other faiths in an attempt to train or guide towards discipline. While these are important. It confuses me , because as usual, how much is good enough, or how much is too much sin? The Bible says stop sinning, period. Is that literal? Is it possible? | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1365 Registered: 5-2007 |
Colleen, Catholicism and Adventism say that we have to stop sinning in order to stay saved. J: Yep. If we relax our discipline, we lose grace and lose salvation. This teaching is not in the Bible. J: Can you show me where you get that conclusion? C: When we are born again, God literally sees Jesus, not us. We aren't righteous because of our ceasing to sin. God looks at Jesus and gives us the credit for His goodness. Period. J: Verse? Jim, give up the struggle. Throw yourself on Jesus and tell Him you'll only do what He directs you to do. J: No sooner than I prepare to make a decision, to go to any church, I get sick. I mean really sick. I guess part of it is stress. I try to stop struggling and just go. But when thsi happens, I get confused again. I sGod saying no not there, or is it me messing myself up with lack of faith? Giving up the struggle you speak of has no exit ramp. Let Him give you life...and if He already has, you must stop obsessing. If you have received the Lord Jesus, you are refusing to rest by refusing to live in trust that He has completed everything. He IS your rest. J: Rest is to stop trying to find a church at all. There's a decision involved. You must decide to trust Him instead of ceaselessly analyzing. J: It is not that I want to analyze. I am trying to understand what God wants me to do? I admit that the nature of your questions makes me wonder if you really have trusted Jesus as your Lord and the One who is completely in charge of you. J: I can disengage. Drifting, and having no heading. It also means dropping my effort to have control of anything including any sense of security. Then what? Just sit and wait? We have to give up our right to ourselves, Jim. We have to get over ourselves and admit we don't understand how reality "works". We just have to trust jesus means what He says and put our weight down on Him. Period. J: I hear the words. I even grasp what you mean. But to let go means no control including fighting to get my life back. All you need is Jesus. When you realize you are hidden in Him, His word becomes completely different. It's no longer confusing. J: How can you say that? No longer confusing. How do you convince yourself that you have it all safely settled? The NT is explaining how to surrender your flesh to Him. But it doesn't work and it CAN'T work if you haven't received Him and trusted Him with everything. J: And there is the side track. "if", then it must be that. Since I cannot prove I have recieved , invited, claimed , prayed for, recieving Christ, then the confusions must mean I never did. Yep, that must must be it. |
