| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13048 Registered: 12-2003  |
The new Proclamation is online now. The lead story is the interview with Dr. Stanley Rouhe 11 days before he died. He talked openly about facing death first as an Adventist and recently as a born-again Christian. It is a moving account as he reminisces about his Down's syndrome brother Lyndon who knew he was saved and his own startling awakening when he realized he could trust Jesus and "retire" from all his work. Another great piece is the article "Delivered by Spiritual C-Section" by Delina Pryce McPhaull in which she talks about what it means to be born again. Dale Ratzlaff examines what it means to commit spiritual adultery as explained in Romans 7, and Richard Peifer writes about worshiping God not because He is Creator but because He Is. Regular columnists Carolyn Macomber and Chris Lee also share their thought about living life as a real Christian. Check it out—I think you'll find it a powerful issue! http://www.lifeassuranceministries.org/proclamation/2011/3/index.html Colleen | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 883 Registered: 8-2008 |
I am so ANGRY right now at how Adventism marginalizes the disabled. This guy clearly loved his down-syndrome brother, but his Dad just assumed that, since God annihilates the mentally disabled, it doesn't matter how you treat them. It's no wonder German Adventists loved Adolph Hitler, since he did to the mentally disabled what SDAs think God will do in the end: annihilate them. Bad theology leads to bad ethics. | ||
| Pnoga Registered user Username: Pnoga Post Number: 491 Registered: 1-2007  |
Ugh, why do I torture myself by reading the self Righteous, condemning, evil willed garbage spouted out at Formers and Proclamation by current Adventists. So much anger and hatred disguised as love. Truly wolves in sheeps clothing. On another Note Dale's article was great, he put into words what I have been understanding when I read Romans 7 and 8 and helped me to grasp it better. Keep up the great work in preaching the Gospel guys. Paul | ||
| Trans4mer Registered user Username: Trans4mer Post Number: 22 Registered: 9-2011  |
I want this new Proclamation in my hands from the mail 10 minutes ago!! grrrr!  | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 177 Registered: 2-2011 |
~Colleen~ First of all, thank-you for the link to the new 'Proclamation magazine' ! I just finished reading the 'GOOD NEWS' regarding your 'MRI'~ Thank-you, JESUS ! I have been wondering about how you were doing and now you have told the 'world' in your article! My prayers continue for you & the faithful staff at Proclamation! ~*~mj~*~ | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 1678 Registered: 12-2007  |
I didn't know that SDA's teach that about handicapped people, that they will be annihilated. I never heard that in the churches I attended. I dont remember it actually being brought up in church, but a few times during potluck conversations.... I remember we discussed how those with mental and physical handicaps would in Heaven be "made whole". | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13053 Registered: 12-2003 |
I'm not sure it was overtly taught everywhere, but it was the underlying understanding I had. They would be annihilated without suffering. EGW also said the same thing about the slaves. Colleen | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 884 Registered: 8-2008 |
Yes, I remember hearing this when I was an SDA. Sickening. | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 487 Registered: 2-2010 |
My dad held the same view. He had a mentally retarded sister who ended up institutionalized. When she was sick and dying no one even told my dad. He got an, "Oh, by the way, Carla died" at the end of a phone call with his mother a few years back. It tore him up. Since leaving SDA theology he has shed tears over the idea of possibly knowing his sister in Heaven. I wonder if there is an EGW quote somewhere to help explain where this idea comes from. Perhaps it's just taking SDA theology to it's full conclusion. It's not spiritual, it's informational. I have seen online that EGW isn't the only one who throws out these crazy quotes about things like this. It may have been in organizational publications and just accepted during some point in time. Since being at a church where there is a ministry for disabled people, I have often wondered where the SDA disabled people were. I only knew one-- Kenny. He was loved by our church and the only candid authentic statements I heard usually came from him. He broke a lot of tension and brought relief to those hotly debated SS conversations. He kept it simple and he was loved for it. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3816 Registered: 10-2004  |
Free2dance, I think the idea might come from an extrapolation of the following EGW quote:
Jeremy | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 494 Registered: 2-2010 |
WOW! That is disgusting. How can anyone call her a "fine Christian woman"? She has made man a god by giving him such power over the salvation of himself and others. (Message edited by free2dance on October 19, 2011) (Message edited by free2dance on October 19, 2011) | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 965 Registered: 5-2009 |
How interesting that these people she describes (slaves), who were treated so horribly, came up with the most beautiful Christian spirituals! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13059 Registered: 12-2003 |
Thanks, Jeremy. I think you're right...it's an extrapolation from that quote, I'm sure. And Nowisee...what a great point! Colleen | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 637 Registered: 7-2005 |
There is a Youtube video with Wintley Phipps demonstrating before a homecoming Bill Gaither meeting how Amazing Grace, even if the words were written by a white man, it's basically a slave song, much likely a melody that John Newton heard while he was the captain of a slave ship. The black notes on the piano were considered the black scale (or something like this, I'm not retaining the technical term) and you can play Amazing Grace only using the black notes of the piano. It's worth a try. Gabriel | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1828 Registered: 3-2009 |
The slaves and children will be like they have never been. What's is the different between that and annihilation of the lost. After they are annihilated, they would be like they have never been. Hec | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2598 Registered: 5-2007  |
It is humbling to know how Colleen faces health issues not very much different from what Jan and I face, yet I often forget to simply trust Jesus the way she shared. I am very much a slow learner in the ‘trust department’. This has been said by others about earlier Proclamations but I am finding this to be the best ever issue because there are so many things contained within it that relate to my own experiences. Being impatient, I downloaded it and printed it. That way I can read it at my leisure without having to stare at a computer screen. There is Nicole’s faith story that really touched both Jan and myself because we were there at the side of that pool when Carolyn introduced her to her Savior. We didn’t see that happening but right afterwards we rejoiced along with the angels of heaven to learn that another saint was now in God’s kingdom. Having just met her we knew nothing of her story. God bless you Nicole. Stanley Rouhe’s story really touched my soul because he said so many things that were issues in the back of my mind, especially what he had to say about his brother. My own brother died at age four and is safe in the arms of Jesus. Like Carolyn, there were once many things that I feared, but no longer do so. Even after knowing my salvation was secure, there were so many things of the world to focus on instead of keeping my eyes on the Jesus and the promises of God. And, then there is what Delina shared. Great article. I ask, to myself, how can you be so young yet so mature and full of God’s wisdom? Now, I am onto reading Dale’s article were he delves into the meaning and application of Romans 7 & 8. Phil | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 596 Registered: 5-2009  |
this "never been" notion is applied to slaves, handicapped/mentally challenged and to unborn children, right? but is it all extrapolated from that EGW quote? There's gotta be more somewhere, 'cause we've all heard it. 10 points for whoever finds it. One of the women at church, after I shared this with a group, asked for more info. I explained the whole lack of understanding of having a spirit, but would like more *evidence*. Help! | ||
| Lucybugg Registered user Username: Lucybugg Post Number: 303 Registered: 2-2007 |
My issue was waiting on me when I got home from work yesterday. Excellent! However, I no longer read the "poison pen" letters because it is too upsetting to me. Such hatred..... | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13108 Registered: 12-2003 |
Delina, I think it really does get its teeth from that slave statement—coupled with their firm belief that spiritual things are cognitively discerned. If the slaves were not quite human enough to "get it", then the mentally disabled cannot be, either. If truth is perceived mentally and depends upon a healthy mind, healthy body, and the avoidance of foods that cloud the intellect, then it certainly can't be understood by someone who doesn't have the synapses to read or learn. It's horrifying, actually... Colleen | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1706 Registered: 7-2003  |
I'm a little behind on my reading :-), but I had some thoughts about those "poisoned" pens. The one that has me typing was titled "No love or concern". I could not stop shaking my head at the incredible ignorance or arrogance; I’m not sure which. I wondered if he/she was even capable of understanding the double standard of his/her questions for one and the spiritual insignificance for another. But I wanted to play along, briefly. In my past “life”, I cannot even count the times I asked similar questions of the Adventist condemning my church and me. I wondered if the writer of that letter would answer his/her own questions to the person in the mirror as s/he evaluates what his/her own church teaches about those of ‘us’ outside it’s walls and belief structure. Is there nothing in Evangelical churches that can be focused upon besides the day they go to church? Do some not provide food pantries for the hungry? Do some not provide financial assistance to families in hardship with utility payments or housing expenses? Do some not offer a variety of ‘classes’ for life improvement (if you deem that an obligation of the church)? Some that come to mind include Financial Peace, DivorceCare, MOPS, various support groups such as for parents of kids with special needs. And what is new about Adventism’s “stop smoking” perspective? John Wesley was preaching against smoking years before the Adventist church took up the cause, but where is he given credit for those efforts? Looking at the questions in reverse, there are many Evangelical missionaries, some from my church, whose ministry is to provide FREE medical care to poverty-ridden communities on the Ivory Coast of Africa. Their sole support is from churches like mine who provide their salaries so they can serve. And they don’t require the people attend their church, quit eating meat or in any way change their lifestyle for the medical care. They meet people where they are, showing the love of Christ, truly expecting nothing in return, hoping for a moment to show Christ’s love. But the line that caught my eye was saying the SDA church did these things “for its members and for the world”. The great commission of Jesus was to go into the world to preach the gospel, baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. They were to teach all he had taught them … apparently AFTER baptism, not as a condition to baptism. Jesus never required someone acknowledge 28 points of a belief statement to be saved, “just” Jesus. I guess I wonder where their ‘mission’ of what they do is grounded? There is no record of Jesus ever telling anyone they had to be physically healthy. Jesus seemed to discard the importance of this earthly body, which would decay, but was purely focused upon the Spiritual, which was eternal. So how are any of the ‘good’ things cited a responsibility of the church, or in any way, a primary focus? And let’s take his/her questions to …say Mormons. Do they not have ‘moral’ lifestyles? Do they not drink alcohol and promote good family units? Do they not have world-class universities? They also have ‘missionaries’ to the world. I remember how admirable I thought it was that the Ed Smart family (who’s daughter, Elisabeth was kidnapped for 9 months) would hire a homeless person to do work around their house so they could earn money for food. Good people, but saved? Not because of those deeds. Yet, do we sit back and say nothing because of these overall positive societal norms about the spiritual decay that is underlying? What did Jesus mean when he talked about “white washed tombs”? So, for Mr/Ms writer in Accokeek, MD, does the church s/he attends provide love and concern for those outside its’ membership by recognizing the ‘good’ they do for its members and the world … or do they focus so tightly on the day we go to church that they recognize nothing “true, noble, right, lovely and admirable” about the non-SDA church? It’s a rhetorical question. While the detractors to this ministry usually have a similar sound, that one just made me want to say ‘right back at ‘cha’. The bottom line is that many non-Christian people do outwardly good and seemingly moral activities. They are still eternally lost and going to find themselves in a Christless eternity, even with all their good deeds for ‘the world’. This letter was a red herring to divert attention from the spiritual dangers that are real. The appeal in the letter sounds so ‘tolerant’ and politically correct, if the questions applied both ways, and the areas highlighted had an ounce of eternal meaning. If good works is all we should consider, then there are a lot of non-believing 501c3 groups to be embraced. Don’t get me wrong. Feeding hungry people is a good thing, teaching them to fish is better, literally, but introducing them to Christ is the ultimate responsibility of the church and Christians. I can trade good deed for good deed with a non-believer. In the grand scheme of things, it means nothing. As for Proclamation! And it’s beloved writers: I love what you do. I love how you point out salt and light. I love your witness and as someone else said your willingness to stand on the bleeding edge of that battle line for all things Spiritual, good and true. You’re an incredible witness for those with eyes to see and an exact example of Christian concern and love…again, for those with eyes to see. Just my 2 cents …. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1707 Registered: 7-2003 |
BTW, that was from the April, May June 2011 issue. That's why I'm 'behind' on my reading | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13124 Registered: 12-2003 |
Melissa, It's so good to see you! As always, you are articulate and you cut to the chase. Thanks so much for showing up and sayin' "howdy"! Colleen |
