| Author | Message | ||
| Cortney Registered user Username: Cortney Post Number: 288 Registered: 8-2006 |
I had a dear Adventist friend try to "prove" Mrs. White's "prophetic position" to me by quoting Malachi 4, he said this scripture proves that there would be a prophet (Elijah) after John the Baptist and before the 2nd coming of Christ. I'm very confused- not that I believe this valid at all. How do they figure this? and were any of you taught this, or have heard of this belief in Adventism. Another question, My friend also said it is well known that Luther taught "soul sleep" - is there any solid proof for this. I have never known a Lutheran who believes in "soul sleep". (Message edited by Cortney on October 21, 2011) | ||
| Thegoldenway Registered user Username: Thegoldenway Post Number: 183 Registered: 5-2011 |
Oh yeah, I've heard that text applied to EGW and also the 'spirit of prophecy' mentioned in Revelation applied to her as well. But you know the Mormans can use those same texts to prove Joseph Smith was a prophet as well as any cult wanting to prove 'their man/woman' as a last day prophet. I have never heard of Luther tho teaching 'soul sleep'. That one is a new one to me. You suppose that he got that from the Great Controversy? hehe If so, any person who takes the time to do the research on that book will discover that EGW made up her own history to fit her Great Controversy theme. I've never been told by my Luthern friends that Luther taught soul sleep. They all believe that your spirit is with God when your body dies. Hey Cortney, isn't funny how SDAs focus on EGW, the sabbath, and soul sleep? It's never about Jesus, the cross, or the resurrection, or even the gospel(the Good News!!). Even when I was an active SDA it always bothered me that the sabbath was all they talked about. lynn | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1994 Registered: 6-2006  |
Luther taught soul sleep? That's a big fat, baldfaced lie. I have never heard that either. We do say the Apostle's Creed which reads that Jesus will come again to judge the quick (living) and the dead. If you really wanted to believe in soul sleep I guess you could read into that sentence and it could possibly be construed that way... however you'd have to maybe have only a 6th grade edumacation and a little bit of brain damage...  Leigh Anne | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2600 Registered: 5-2007  |
Leigh Anne, You sure know how to get to the point without making excess use of the King's English.  Phil | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2201 Registered: 7-2007 |
I just read Malachi 4 and all it said about a prophet was that God was going to send Elijah the prophet before Jesus' second coming. Since this was written before John the Baptist came and since John the Baptist WAS "Elijah the prophet," in the prophetic sense, then "Elijah" here is John the Baptist. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1995 Registered: 6-2006 |
Phil, I did my very best to avoid using the word "crap". me | ||
| Thegoldenway Registered user Username: Thegoldenway Post Number: 188 Registered: 5-2011 |
That's funny Leigh Anne But you're right that's exactly what it is! | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 680 Registered: 2-2003  |
Hi all, Although I do not believe in soul sleep myself, in fact I think it involves huge problems for a number of areas of theology, it is a historical fact that several of the reformers taught it, including Wycliffe and Tyndale. The main reason for this, in my opinion, is that all the doctrines of the Catholic Church were questioned at this time, and there was a reaction against the overly elaborated teaching on the intermediate state, including purgatory, as indicated by Dante's Inferno and the paintings of Hieronymus Bosch (spelling?) I am writing most of this from memory, but I think it is pretty well attested that Calvin opposed soul sleep, but Luther did teach this position, at least for a time. Some hold that he changed his mind later in life. As far as I am aware, modern Lutherans do not teach this, though I dare say others here are in a better position to confirm this. I am afraid these are from secondary sources, but I found a couple of quotes on the Web: From Luther's commentary on Ecclesiastes: "Solomon judges that the dead are asleep, and feel nothing at all. For the dead lie there accounting neither days nor years, but when they are awoken, they shall seem to have slept scarce one minute" Commentary on Genesis: "So the soul after death enters its chamber and peace, and sleeping does not feel its sleep" And another quote for which unfortunately I do not have the source: "As soon as your eyes have closed shall you be woken, a thousand years shall be as if you had slept but a little half hour. Just as at night we hear the clock strike and know not how long we have slept, so too, and how much more, are in death a thousand years soon past. Before a man should turn round, he is already a fair angel." 'Jürgen Moltmann (2000) concludes from this that "Luther conceived the state of the dead as a deep, dreamless sleep, removed from time and space, without consciousness and without feeling."' Here's the source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_sleep OK, wikipedia is not the Bible... Anyway, Luther certainly believed in soul sleep. This is a historical fact, whether we like it or not. This does not, however, mean that he was right. That would be to commit the logical fallacy of "appeal to authority". Authority other than the Bible, that is... As I said above, I do not believe in this position, but the historical facts are as they are, and we have to deal with them. In contrast, the very earliest post-biblical Christian writers such as Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch and Justin Martyr clearly teach that the soul is conscious after death - without the later Roman Catholic accretions. God bless, Adrian | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1996 Registered: 6-2006 |
Adrian, this is funny because if Luther did personally believe that the soul "sleeps", it's certainly not something taught in our Lutheran church or among the Lutherans I know. I tried to look for information online, but ended up in a site put together by *Surprise!* SDAs. Along with the quotes you offer, I did find a quote of his where he referred to the dead saints being "In their graves and in Heaven". So I'm not sure what to say about his consistancy, LOL! I guess my question would be, can Adventists match up their view of the soul with Luther's? I realize that to the SDA, the soul is breath and ceases to exist at death. These quotes of Luther still don't show that he believed that the soul ceased to exist at death. Since I'm clearly not a Luther historian, I think it would be good to research more about what he taught about the soul, regeneration and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. So did Luther personally believe in a type of soul sleep? Maybe? Sometimes? For the formers and current lurking SDA's, this isn't what the modern Lutheran chuch teaches. Firstly, Luther is not or has ever been to my knowledge considered a prophet the way SDA church looks on Ellen White. We believe in Bible only ~ in fact, Luther is rarely even brought up at our particular congregation. Secondly, we believe that the believer's spirit does exist inside and outside of the body and goes to be with the Lord upon death (in other words, we never die). Leigh Anne | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1839 Registered: 3-2009 |
I don't know why we keep calling the SDA teaching "soul sleep" because it is not. For a soul to sleep there has to be a soul. SDA does not believe there is a soul. So the SDA doctrine is not soul sleep, it is soul non-existence. Does the Bible say anywhere that the souls are active in heaven? Isn't it possible the they would be sleeping? The SDA problem is that nothing goes to heaven because there is no soul/spirit to go to heaven, since the spirit is just breath. Hec | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13090 Registered: 12-2003  |
Hec, I agree with your take on SDA "soul sleep". It is not soul sleep; it is nonexistence. In fact, in that infamous Doug Batchelor series we watched yesterday, he even referred to the SDA belief that humans and animals are alike in death. They cease to exist. True soul sleep still has the soul existing, even if unconscious. But 2 Cor 5:10 (I believe) says that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, and, whether we are at home in the body or with the Lord we make it our goal to please Him. How can we please Him if we are not somehow relating to Him? Colleen | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 681 Registered: 2-2003 |
Leigh Anne, You make some good points. And I think it is positive, that although the Lutheran Church may look to Luther as a founder, he is not considered an infallible prophet, and as his teaching on the state of the dead is, on closer examination, not Biblical, it has been abandonned. By the way, he does not appear to have denied the existence of the human soul, so his position is not the same as SDA - though I guess I would have to do more research on that. And the inconsistency may well just point to the fact that, well, he changed his mind. The reformers were, after all, just imperfect human beings, like the rest of us. Hec, A passage indicating that the dead are awake and active would be Revelation 6:9-11, though whether the location of "under the altar" is in heaven or not could be open to question. These souls are communicating with God, however. | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1842 Registered: 3-2009 |
Isn't it a lot more comforting to know that our loved ones who has gone before, are relating to Jesus and pleasing Him, and not gone into oblivion? Praise the Lord! Hec | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1998 Registered: 6-2006 |
Amen, Hec! | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 9466 Registered: 3-2004  |
Yes Hec, that is so comforting. Although I do not know if my Mom and Dad are with God, I do know my friend Maria is. I thank our awesome God that He is fair and just and I can trust His judgement. Diana L | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 890 Registered: 8-2008 |
If I recall correctly, Luther's teaching on soul sleep is not at all like the SDA teaching. He actually believed that there is an immaterial part of the believer that lives on, and that is with Christ, though that immaterial spiritual part is also asleep. I think this is more in line with Luther's tendency to take the literal words of Scripture, agree with all apparently paradoxical Biblical statements, and teach that all is true even if it seems paradoxical or even contradictory to us, and that it only appears this way because we do not see everything like God does. In no way does this agree with SDA theology, in which the soul does not actualy sleep, but ceases to exist, and is re-created after the resurrection. The SDA doctrine is a denial of the blessed hope of the resurrection, because it is not YOU who is resurrected, but a carbon-copy of you which does not contain your own consciousness. In the SDA world, when YOU die, you never live again, but a copy of someone exactly like you lives again. | ||
| Trans4mer Registered user Username: Trans4mer Post Number: 39 Registered: 9-2011  |
Oh my, my, my...... as one of my favorite denominations, the Presbyterians of Calvin says, does it matter THAT much if we know Jesus?? I really, really like John Calvin. Here's one for ya........ IF there is 'soul sleep' does that soul dream?? Hmmm...... Jesus EMPHASIZED that if we believe in Him, we HAVE eternal life. Of course if we've ever been 'infected' with adventism, this'll pester us like an old addiction that we've overcome, but not forgotten. | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 682 Registered: 2-2003 |
Hec, It is indeed comforting to know that. Hebrews 12:22-24 is also an interesting passage in this regard. Incidentally, I am not much of a fan of Calvin in general, but he got this one right. By the way, off to visit our contacts in Slovakia tomorrow - joint meeting of new church plants in Nové Zámky, Nitra, Zlaté Moravce and Šal'a. Looking forward to it, they are doing a great job! Ježiš žíje! Adrian | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1308 Registered: 7-2004  |
If you want to read a good discussion of Luther and soul sleep see the series of articles on the Beggars All blog. SDAs have greatly twisted a few comments to force what appears to be an agreement where there is none. The SDA view is soul death. For Luther there is a living soul separate from the body, but perhaps with less awareness than our conscious bodies. I'll see if I can post a link this evening. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1309 Registered: 7-2004 |
What you will find as you read through these series of well research and well written posts is that, once again, SDAism has engaged in outright deception and misrepresentation in the promotion of their heresies. http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2006/04/seventh-day-adventist-luther-soul.html | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1310 Registered: 7-2004 |
And please be sure that you don't stop with the first article on the subject. You might miss a great quote from Luther like "“It is true that souls hear, perceive, and see after death; but how it is done, we do not understand… If we undertake to give an account of such things after the manner of this life, then we are fools. Christ has given a good answer; for his disciples were without doubt just as curious. ‘He that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live,’ (John xi.25); likewise: ‘Whether we live, or whether we die, we are the Lord’s,’ (Rom. Xiv.8)… ‘The soul of Abraham lives with God, his body lies here dead,’ it would be a distintion which to my mind is mere rot! I will dispute it. One must say: ‘The whole Abraham, the entire man, lives!’ – Conversations with Luther, pp.122 f.” What Luther is arguing against is speculating on how the details work beyond what Scripture says. That is a theme that you will find again and again in his writings (even if there may be a few places where he violates his own principle in this regard). Read through all of the articles on this blog on the subject, it is worth the effort. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1311 Registered: 7-2004 |
I would also add that this would be very typical of a debate between Luther and Calvin on any number of subjects. While they would share many theological points, my synopsis of their relative positions would be: Luther "John, you are relying too much on your own reason and making conclusions that go beyond what Scripture actual says" Calvin "Martin, God gave us brains for a reason. Given what we are told in Scripture, certain conclusions are obvious." Personally I'm often torn between these two positions, although over time I lean a little more towards the "mystery" of Luther's theology than the "logic" of Calvin's. | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 683 Registered: 2-2003 |
Ric, Thanks for posting that link. It had just the information I wanted to know. Luther believed in the human soul, just that it (may have) slept after physical death. Most interesting! Not at all like the Adventist view, after all. Adrian | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1314 Registered: 7-2004 |
Adrian, I would also add that the soul, even if sleeping, experienced sensations and emotions in Luther's writings. I'm not defending Luther as correct on this subject, but rather trying to show that the view SDAs have attributed to Him is a gross misrepresentation designed to legitimize SDA doctrine. It is yet another SDA lie. | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 684 Registered: 2-2003 |
Ric, Exactly. I do not agree with him either, but with his views in this regard Luther did not place himself outside the bounds of Biblical Christianity, as he accepted the existence and continuation of the human soul after death. So did Tyndale, actually, though he was maybe even more emphatic in his view that it "fell asleep". As far as I can see, the Bible so clearly teaches that man is made up of body and soul (or spirit) that this really cannot be denied without severely twisting the Scriptures (see Matthew 10:28, for instance). With their total denial of the human soul/spirit, SDAs do in fact place themselves outside those limits. If the "resurrection" is in fact just re-creation, then that has serious theological and philosophical problems. I am not particularly thrilled by the idea that a clone of myself will (maybe...) inherit eternal life. :-) Adrian | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13107 Registered: 12-2003 |
Well said, Adrian. You are absolutely right...and that belief is incredibly depressing. You're among a whole collection of people here who used to be terrified of death. Colleen | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 685 Registered: 2-2003 |
Indeed Colleen, I still really have no "gut feeling" about what people went through in Adventism, though objectively I can assess the teaching as unbiblical. As to the fear of death, isn't it great that the Bible tells us we no longer need to have any? Just by way of example: Hebrews 2:14-15 1Cor 15:54-57 John 11:25-26. Just got back from a house group meeting, and as we have a recent convert, I was going through a teaching on the new birth. I mentioned that when we are born again, our eternal life has already started (e.g. 1John 5:13), and one of the older members said she had not realised that before. Great thought, eh? Adrian | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13115 Registered: 12-2003 |
God is using you, Adrian. It makes me emotional to think of people like that woman you just mentioned suddenly knowing something REALLY, REALLY BIG about reality. I'm so OK with people not really understanding at a gut level what we went through, as long as they honestly accept the factual realities of the heresies in which we languished. Our pastor once said to us (actually several years ago) that he didn't know much about what Adventists believe, but he could see the distress of those who ventured into his church, and he knew they needed help. That objective observation underlay his willingness to support the FAF ministry. He understands much more now, but always his way of understanding is objective and fact-based, not emotional. That's OK! Thanks for taking us seriously. Colleen |
