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Nowisee
Registered user
Username: Nowisee
Post Number: 992
Registered: 5-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2011 - 9:39 pm: |     |
Jim, I'm tired but want to address two specific points you mentioned. Believe me, we all get where you are coming from, but you have to consider:
If the Bible says one thing (i.e. if we can be saved by law-keeping, Christ died for nothing, i.e. we really don't need His atonement on the cross & He went through a great deal of suffering for absolutely nothing) and EGW and SDA doctrine says the opposite (if we set aside law-keeping, Christ died for nothing)...then WHICH ONE should we believe? Does Scripture have authority? HOW do we know which one to believe? This is a vital question. One with eternal consequences. If our authority is wishy-washy, then we can believe anything.
You also mentioned that they confess Christ. I am convinced some SDAs do, but most confess a christ who is not the christ of the Bible. Jesus Christ is not Michael the archangel, no matter how many sincere SDAs believe He is, or how many times EGW says He is. The real Jesus was not born with a fallen nature and His blood NEVER pollutes anything. If an SDA disagrees with the teaching of the church and their prophet, then what is keeping them in a false belief system about Christ? Sabbath plain and simple because they are too afraid to go to a service on Sunday which results in apostasy and the mark of the beast.
I know I stayed away from any type of Christian church for years because of this fear and it took a support group for me to actually attend a Sunday church. |
Handmaiden
Registered user
Username: Handmaiden
Post Number: 264
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2011 - 1:09 am: | |
Dear Jim,
The Bible specifically warns about another jesus and another gospel.
The sda church no matter how sincerely they believe or are motivated have a false jesus and a false gospel.
They have been deceived into believing a lie.
They are not Christians. They are psuedo christians ... false christians.
It is like having a plastic orange and a real orange side by side.
They have a little in common as far as appearance goes but they are miles apart as far as substance goes.
The devil is a master liar and deceiver. He knows that the worst lie is the one that is the most believable.
What sda teach and the way they teach it ... is very believable ... unless you know what the Bible says.
No matter how right or good a teaching sounds, if it contradicts the Word of God, it is a false teaching.
satan does not care what you believe as long as you do not believe the truth.
The truth is the sabbath has nothing and i repeat nothing to do with salvation.
The sabbath has no power. It cannot save you.
It is not even the way to salvation.
The wages of sin is DEATH... what can the sabbath do about that?
Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life.
Jesus overcame sin, death, the grave and hell.
Jesus' blood was shed for the remission of sins.
Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins.
The law and the sabbath can do NOTHING for you... they certainly cannot bleed for you.
Jesus loves you, Jim.
Jesus came for you, Jim
Jesus lived a perfect life for you, Jim
Jesus suffered and died a horrific death, for you Jim.
Jesus rose and defeated death for you, Jim.
Jesus set you free from the burden of the sabbath and the condemnation of the law.
He broke the chains that bind you and set you free.
Run to Jesus focus on Him and Him alone.
Fall in love with your Saviour and Redeemer and your God.
God is not a hard taskmaster.
He did not come to investigate you, judge you or condemn you..He came to save you.
The world was condemned already...no investigation necessary...already a done deal.
Jesus did not come to condemn...He came to save us to rescue us.
He loves us.
In His mercy, He forgave us.
In His justice, He paid the penalty in full.
In His amazing grace, He adopted us and calls us His own.
He is not waiting for you to mess up, Jim.
He is waiting for you to turn to Him in your heart and come home to Him.
You can do that right now.
This very moment let go of the past, let go of the burden, let go of the lies and fear and trust in the goodness of the Lord Jesus, Who did it all for you,
The Bible is not a rule book..it is God's love letter to you,
I pray with all my heart that you can read for the first time without the veil, and see what God has done for you.
You are loved. You are forgiven. You are accepted.
Believe the TRUTH.
i am praying for you.
love
handmaiden |
Lori
Registered user
Username: Lori
Post Number: 117
Registered: 11-1999
| | Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2011 - 9:26 am: | |
There is nothing wrong with a "Sabbath Day Rest" when, IF, you are already resting in the reality of Jesus Christ as your rest.
The problem with the SDA Sabbath rest? IT IS A SALVATION ISSUE. The Sabbath, not the 10 commandments, IS THE SECOND TEST OF SALVATION. The Sabbath determines whether you are saved or lost.
The first test is belief in Christ. The second test is the Sabbath. According to Adventist doctrines, if you fail the second test it doesn't matter if you believe in Christ YOU WILL NOT BE SAVED. Because you have rejected the Sabbath Day your faith in Christ is null and void.
Early Writings page 42,43, "I saw that Jesus had shut the door of the holy place, and no man can open it; and that He had opened the door into the most holy, and no man can shut it (Rev. 3:7,8); and that since Jesus has opened the door into the most holy place, which contains the ark, the commandments have been shining out to God's people, and they are being tested on the Sabbath question."
EW pg 36 "I was shown a company who were howling in agony. On their garments was written in large characters, "Thou art weighed in the balance, and found wanting." I asked who this company were. The angel said, "These are they who have once kept the Sabbath and have given it up." I heard them cry with a loud voice, "We have believed in Thy coming, and taught it with energy." And while they were speaking, their eyes would fall upon their garments and see the writing, and then they would wail aloud. I saw that they had drunk of the deep waters, and fouled the residue with their feet--trodden the Sabbath underfoot-- and that was why they were weighed in the balance and found wanting." |
Animal
Registered user
Username: Animal
Post Number: 984
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2011 - 2:55 pm: | |
The Sabbath determines whether you are saved or lost.????
I was unaware of this biblical truth Lori... I greatly appreciate shedding light on this important issue of faith.
I thought that the new birth experience determined if a person was saved or lost. So all these years my focus was on the Cross and I should have focused on the Sabbath!! How could I have been so wrong?...sigh.
...Animal...sabbath instead of Christ...WOW !!! |
Indy4now
Registered user
Username: Indy4now
Post Number: 1073
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2011 - 5:27 pm: | |
Animal... you've been drinking too much rootbeer! ha! |
Animal
Registered user
Username: Animal
Post Number: 985
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2011 - 6:03 pm: | |
I wanted to brush up on my apologetics (spelling?)skills...lol lol. |
Jackob
Registered user
Username: Jackob
Post Number: 650
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Monday, November 28, 2011 - 7:39 am: | |
Jim
Please be specific and tell what part of my argument isn't clear for you. I'm in agreement with you that judging the motivation of the adventists is beyond the point and we should refrain from doing this. If you disagree that in adventism Jesus' natures (divine/human) are less important than the sabbath, feel free to disagree and show me where I'm wrong.
Gabriel |
Lori
Registered user
Username: Lori
Post Number: 118
Registered: 11-1999
| | Posted on Monday, November 28, 2011 - 10:01 am: | |
And, yes, Animal, it is "biblical truth" I supplied two "inspired quotes". The fact there are no texts from Scripture to support these "truths" is irrelevant. In addition, you do not question these "truths"...you just believe them. (That's what I was always told when I asked questions as a young adult in Sabbath School. Publicly ridiculed for even questioning. Same questions got me excused from Bible class in Academy--with no consequences for absences--and, an A every quarter.) |
Foofighter
Registered user
Username: Foofighter
Post Number: 186
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Monday, November 28, 2011 - 11:25 am: | |
Has anyone else seen the latest Gleaner? On the cover is a picture of a bowl of soup with bread sticks, with the title, "Savor the Savior" and right underneath is the subtitle "A New Look at the Sabbath". What????? And then the whole article is about Sabbath. I just cannot believe this. The whole thing is such an abomination...misapplied texts throughout. There is nothing in the article about Jesus being our Savior, the whole thing is about the Sabbath, and the usual texts about Jesus keeping the Sabbath, blah, blah blah. It is just awful!
Carol |
Lori
Registered user
Username: Lori
Post Number: 119
Registered: 11-1999
| | Posted on Monday, November 28, 2011 - 12:36 pm: | |
Quote from the Gleaner~~Savor the Savior~~2011
"Some think the more God shows them, the harder it becomes to be saved. But that's a satanic lie, just as surely as what he told Eve."
Well, I wonder where Adventist get that idea?
Ellen White says, "I saw that the present test on the Sabbath could not come until the mediation of Jesus in the holy place was finished and He had passed within the second veil; therefore Christians who fell asleep before the door was opened into the most holy, when the midnight cry was finished, at the seventh month, 1844, and who had not kept the true Sabbath, now rest in hope; FOR THEY DID NOT HAVE THE LIGHT AND THE TEST ON THE SABBATH WHICH WE NOW HAVE since that door was opened. I saw that Satan was tempting some of God's people on this point. Because so many good Christians have fallen asleep in the triumphs of faith and have not kept the true Sabbath, they were doubting about its being a test for us now." Early Writing pg 42,43
Sounds like an extra requirement for salvation to me.
And, Ellen White's secretary wrote this quoting "Testimonies" from EW: "I became an Adventist in Chicago under the labors of G. B. Starr, and was very zealous for what is called 'Present Truth.' I truly believed it was the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and lived up to the testimonies with all faithfulness discarding meat, butter, fish, fowl and the supper meal, believing that as the 'Testimonies' say, 'No meat-eater will be translated.'" The Fannie Bolton story, pp. 107
Sounds like "present truth" has at least two additional requirements for salvation. Does this mean EW is a satanic liar? |
Mjcmcook
Registered user
Username: Mjcmcook
Post Number: 229
Registered: 2-2011
| | Posted on Monday, November 28, 2011 - 2:54 pm: | |
Could there be any other than a resounding "YES"
to your question in post # 119 ?
I cannot think of a better title for egw than the
one you gave her~"satanic liar"~
~mj~ |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 13180
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 28, 2011 - 3:53 pm: | |
Thank you, Lori. Very good post...I agree with MJ...satanic liar really does describe her.
I know...this sort of statement makes Adventists recoil in disgust...I would have reacted, too. But to me, that reaction is evidence that there is more than an objective component to their reaction to EGW. There is a very real spiritual power that ties her to Adventism and to Adventists.
Colleen |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1433
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Monday, November 28, 2011 - 6:48 pm: | |
Everyone,
I grasp what is being expressed.
My defensive reaction comes from the accusation that Adventist (individuals) intentionaly or conciously make an idol of the Sabbath over their faith in Christ. This is not in their hearts.
They are proceeding from a loyalty doctrine they were taught which makes the law (and paticularly the Sabbath)a test of faith.
They believe by standing for the law, they are standing in faith for Christ.
Are they sincerely wrong? Maybe so.
But wasn't that Paul's point? Whether they are right or wrong, they are doing so unto God.
I agree that there are many things not ringing true in SDA ism. Misquotes of scripture, twisted doctrines, ignored biblical truths and on it goes.
Do I wish I could go back there? Yes, on a certain level. Probably cultural familiarity is the greater motive.
I have held back in neutral trying to find my anchor points before going forward or back.
As was suggested , I have been writing down, word for word, passages that set us free from the law.
I am reading the NT, writing these out each morning until I have found them all.
I have ommitted writing the circular references and the exclusion lists.
I am just trying to recieve the freedom passages and positive instructions right now.
I already have experienced that neither side is able to merge the confusing passages that indicate conditional salvation or reflections to the law. Neither am I able to do so.
So , I am trying to at least grasp and recieve the positive passages and hoping it will bridge me to the rest later on.
The biggest difference between the SDA discipline to scripture and works is that they tend to be uber pragmatic. Works check lists.
Boundry definers.
Thus this is their fruit reflectors.
The other mainline approach is if you are still in sin, then you never really were saved, your conversion is not real and as such your fruits or lack therof prove that you were never converted in the first place.
Both approaches deny various approaches in scripture to being saved or not.
In turn, I do not know whether to let go and let Jesus, wait for Him to make it all right, or to work to the bone to overcome my personal failures etc.. fight , struggle and work hard.
In one sense, it is supposed to be a finished work, but in so many tests, evidently it is conditional to that word we hate "obedience".
We are sealed by the Holy Spirit, if we have been coverted, changed and transformed, thus automatically producing the right fruits, thoughts, doctrine IQ results etc, or if we have it screwed up or miss the mark, we are lost on a technicality.
The one thing that drives me to distraction is the "are you saved" questions.
I can offer passages that say I am, and passages that say I am not. Take your pick.
Depending on where I look in teh Bible, I can condemn myself beyond hope, or I can establish my hope in faith upon His mercy. I cannot save myself either way. So am I saved? You tell me.
Jim |
Lori
Registered user
Username: Lori
Post Number: 120
Registered: 11-1999
| | Posted on Monday, November 28, 2011 - 8:15 pm: | |
Jim,
The question "How are you saved?" answers the question "Are you saved?" The problem you are having is you are still making salvation--just a little bit--about what you can add to it.
We are sealed by the Holy Spirit IF we have been converted, IF we have been changed and IF we have been transformed????
That's a lot of "Do it Yourself" work!!!
Also, you are confusing salvation with being out of fellowship with God. Two very separate issues. Again, the answer to the question "How are you saved?" answers the question "Are you saved?" |
Lori
Registered user
Username: Lori
Post Number: 121
Registered: 11-1999
| | Posted on Monday, November 28, 2011 - 9:08 pm: | |
My heart goes out to you, Jim, because I remember being where you are....wanting desperately to jump out of the boat that I am trying to keep from sinking by bailing out water non-stop....wanting to let go of all the work to keep it afloat and grab hold of the life vest floating in the ocean beside me. It's hard, it's hard to let go of the work because the work is familiar--it seems to be working--and you are still staying above the water line. : ) Taking the life jackets seem uncertain--deadly!!
Sins!! All the sins!! They are a big obstacle to accepting grace. So maybe we should talk about how sin does or does not play a part in salvation.
You say you can condemn yourself beyond hope. (That's the way you make yourself feel) What does God say about condemnation? Who is condemned and why are they condemned? This will help answer the question "are you saved?"
Jesus' spiritual death on the cross provided unlimited atonement. There has never and will never be a time when the Godhead has not, did not or will not know what is going to happen. There is not one sin that you can commit that is going to surprise God. Jesus paid the price for all sins, not just the ones that you committed ignorantly or the ones that you committed before you accepted Him, but all of them. He paid the penalty for the sins you do on the spur of the moment and for the ones you PLAN!!!! He paid the penalty for the sins you commit because you committed one sin and then you commit even more sins because 'you are on a roll'. He paid the penalty for the sins of worry and guilt that you carry around because you didn't forget the sins in your past even though you confessed it, you held on to it and you fostered more sins in its path. There is no sin that you will ever commit that is not covered by redemption, the sacrifice has already been made; the sins you are going to commit tomorrow, next week or next year have already been paid for by death. You can not and will not be judged for those sins again!!!!!
The only people surprised by what you do will be you and the people you know and the people who witness or hear about what you do. God will not be shocked by your actions, behavior and lack of self control.
Condemnation/judgment will be based on one factor. Believer or Unbeliever. If you Believe, in Jesus Christ, before you physically died then you will be marked as Righteous, if you are an unbeliever you will be marked Condemned. There is no mention of the word sins in the judgment. You will either stand before God, with Christ as your 'attorney' and be covered by the righteousness of Christ and your name will have remained in the book of life or you will reject Christ as your 'attorney' and you will stand before God with only your deeds to speak for you and your name will have been blotted out of the Book of Life and you will be Condemned, because the only way to God is through Christ, the 'attorney'.
There is only on unpardonable sin: rejection of Christ. Even Unbelievers will not be judged for their sins, just like Believers their sins were already judged on the cross.
It's all about Faith! Not Faith plus your efforts to be good! Just plain Faith.
There is a tremendous difference in rejecting God and not being faithful to God. When you sin, as a believer, you are not rejecting God, you are being unfaithful to God.
"If----(maybe you will, maybe you won't)----we (positionally) die (on the cross) with him, we will also (spiritually) live with him; If we endure (continue to believe), we will also reign with him. If we disown (reject) him, he will also disown (reject) us; IF WE ARE FAITHLESS (if we ignore the guidance of the Holy Spirit and follow our sinful nature, but we still believe in Him as Saviour) HE WILL REMAIN FAITHFUL, for he cannot disown himself." 2 Tim. 2 :11-13
He cannot reject us, because we believe and are IN HIM, if he rejected those who believe in him, he would have to reject himself. And he can not reject himself!!!!
Our 'continued' salvation is not based upon our actions. You will be saved in spite of your actions. |
Jackob
Registered user
Username: Jackob
Post Number: 651
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Monday, November 28, 2011 - 10:07 pm: | |
Jim
I'm still waiting for you to interact with the argument I presented, if something is not clear, please show me what part you don't understand.
When Adventists tolerate into their ranks ideas like arianism (Jesus separate and inferior to Father), or Jesus having sin in his human nature, don't they show less care for Jesus Person than sabbath? They don't tolerate diversity of views about sabbath, but they accept people who reject Jesus' blood as making atonement. What's more important for them, who Jesus is and what He did on the cross, or the sabbath?
Gabriel |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 13182
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 28, 2011 - 11:13 pm: | |
Jim, Gabriel's question is not trivial. It is the core of the confusion that you have.
People are not saved or lost on the basis of sin, conscious or unconscious. They are saved or lost on the basis of the Sin Bearer: have they let go of their need to "get it right" and trust Him, or not?
If people are not trusting Christ as the Bible teaches Him and the gospel, they are not saved...whether or not they are sincerely trying to please God by obeying the commandments. He doesn't look at our personal work on ourselves; He looks at whether or not we KNOW Him.
Gabriel's question will lead you to the core of your dilemma.
Colleen |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1434
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2011 - 7:22 am: | |
Lori,
How do you set aside the list of people who will not inherit the kingdom of heaven?
I think most of us , if we are honest about it, at least touch upon one of those exclusions.
It only takes a thought to be guilty of a sin.
I have considered that these lists describe those who are not covered. But that is not clear since Paul speaks directly to the church.
You speak of letting go of the work.
I understand this to a point. But in practice, it is another matter.
One of the excluded items in Revelation is cowards (read fearful, or faithless perhaps)
but the effect has to do with holding back due to fear itself, along with "whatever is not of conviction is sin", and the passage that says "God will send a powerful delusion that they will believe a lie".
These create a no win scenario if I stop working.
I battle with anxiety, I can't stop. If I do, I shut down. I have to face stressors and fear daily. If I do not maintain it, the walls get higher. But in the religious context, I am even harder on myself, since when I avoid anything in my life, I count myself excluded, already lost.
When I try to please God, I cannot even determine with certain conviction (as yet) if I may stop trying to be accountable to the law.
(I am closer , somedays , that I was, but not settled as yet)
I have already been decieved either way I go, mainliner or old SDA paths. Because it is evident that both cannot be right on these key doctrines. I cannot avoid deception if God allows me to fall under delusion. And so , this too puts the burden on me to know the truth and to hopefully escape deception.
Ultimately, I find I cannot contain the battle or the back pack it takes to keep up with it. By the time I learn over here, I am distracted over there. This then brings on more anxiety and I just want off this hell go round.
I keep coming up with plan after plan, anything to have hope for another day. I have lost a sense of homing, or familiarity. I have no place to call 'I belong'.
The prodigal knew where home is, mine burned down.
Gabriel, Colleen,
Quote:
People are not saved or lost on the basis of sin, conscious or unconscious. They are saved or lost on the basis of the Sin Bearer: have they let go of their need to "get it right" and trust Him, or not?
This may be the key to being exempted (redeemed) from the list of the excluded.
But how do I know that?
Lori quoted:2Tim2:
12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13 if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.
This almost could mean he covers us anyway, but it is not clear that is what it says or at least what God's faithful ness implies in thsi situation or condition of a sinner who cannot make the grade.
Gabriel,
Jesus was in a human body of the age. Not in a superior Adam era body. Contained within that body He felt what we feel. I do not think however He had a sin nature or that He was ever not God in the fullest sense.
He anguished, He cried, He sweat drops of blood, He asked the cup pass from Him. He suffered.
I do not know why God choose to manifest as a man. There must have been a reason.
I do not have an argument for these theories.
But I do sense that God becoming man was no easy experience. As to whether there was ever a risk of failure. I cannot answer that. At minimum , there was intense suffering as a human. Why did Jesus have to endure suffereing the human experience? was it to learn, or to set an example? Was it to prove something? He was tempted in all points. What does that mean?
If there was no possibility to fail or turn back, then is temptation as we know it really a temptation? He anguished. Something real happend, He struggled in His humanity. Was it to teach us something? Or was it only between Him and God's demand to satisfy the law?
Quote:
When Adventists tolerate into their ranks ideas like arianism (Jesus separate and inferior to Father), or Jesus having sin in his human nature, don't they show less care for Jesus Person than sabbath?
J: That is an opinion, subjective in nature.
I think that the SDA individual always see's Jesus as supreme over everything. But they also acknowledge He paid the price for the law.
Their formula is that the law required death and to disobey or ignore the law is to crucify Christ all over again. Mainliners interpret the Gospel to say that the law, (the reason God had to die) ended at the cross. Paul said , God forbid , we establish the law.
I woudl not know sin if not for the law.
Where there is no law , sin is not taken into account. Mainliners look to Spiritual law, not written code. I see both sides and I get lost between them.
Quote:
They don't tolerate diversity of views about sabbath, but they accept people who reject Jesus' blood as making atonement.
J: I will take your word for it. I never heard it spoken that way, nor did I see aggressive demands in church about minutia over Sabbath practices.
What was written in books (ideals) was rarely seen in enforced pratice. People all had varying views on how to keep sabbath and to avoid what they considered legalism. The problems usually arose when someone would try to define it for another.
Quote:
What's more important for them, who Jesus is and what He did on the cross, or the sabbath?
J:Positively, without a doubt, Jesus, and His death on the cross is supremely important to them. I never was taught or given the impression otherwise.
Jim |
Tfelmon
Registered user
Username: Tfelmon
Post Number: 72
Registered: 7-2011
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2011 - 7:59 am: | |
Jim,
I can understand your quote:
"I battle with anxiety, I can't stop. If I do, I shut down. I have to face stressors and fear daily. If I do not maintain it, the walls get higher. But in the religious context, I am even harder on myself, since when I avoid anything in my life, I count myself excluded, already lost."
I too have had anxiety issues and know what is does to one's body and way of thinking. In fact, anxiety can lead to very confused and irratinoal thinking. Beleive me, I've been there. I can only speak from expereince here, but I would recommend you seek professional help for your anxiety before you attempt to try and understand any Biblical principles. Once the anxiety is under control you will feel the calm and peace you need to fully realize what God has in store for you. However, in my opinion, if you continue in your current state you will go round and round with your questions and never really find any answers. It may possibly be you find comfort in your confusion and circular questioning. I don't know, but what I do know is...
You are VERY included in God's plan of salvation. He cares for you regardless of what you think or beleive or whether you have it right or not. Just give Him a chance instead of trying to rely on your own understanding. |
Jackob
Registered user
Username: Jackob
Post Number: 652
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2011 - 8:41 am: | |
Jim
You said
quote:Quote:
When Adventists tolerate into their ranks ideas like arianism (Jesus separate and inferior to Father), or Jesus having sin in his human nature, don't they show less care for Jesus Person than sabbath?
J: That is an opinion, subjective in nature.
Why do you think that it is subjective? I have objective, public proofs, and I'm asking you to deal with the proofs:
An Adventist can believe that Jesus is separate, inferior to the Father (another god), still he's considered saved. Celebrity cases: James White, Joseph Bates, Uriah Smith.
An Adventist can believe that Jesus' blood did not expiate anybody's sin (Graham Maxwell's view, popular in Loma Linda area) and is still considered saved.
But you can't reject sabbath and remain saved, if you don't repent and the Sunday law is coming. You're apostate, and lost if you're not repenting.
Is not clear that denying Jesus' atonement and His full divinity is less important than keeping the sabbath? You can deny Jesus' divinity and it's OK, you can't trump the sabbath and be ok.
You said:
quote:Quote:
They don't tolerate diversity of views about sabbath, but they accept people who reject Jesus' blood as making atonement.
J: I will take your word for it. I never heard it spoken that way, nor did I see aggressive demands in church about minutia over Sabbath practices.
I'm not speaking about different ways to keep the sabbath, I made clear that I'm speaking about applying Romans 14 to the sabbath. If they want to keep a day for God, they are free to do it, but don't judge me for not keeping it. They will not accept this view, it's forbidden.
I'm not comparing more or less strict ways of keeping the sabbath, I'm comparing the fact that you can reject Jesus' atonement in blood and still be considered saved, but you can't reject sabbath and still be considered saved. You're relegated as an apostate.
I'm not asking you to take my word for it because I don't discuss minutiae. I'm asking you to look at the facts I presented to you, and deal with the proofs I brought.
quote:Quote:
What's more important for them, who Jesus is and what He did on the cross, or the sabbath?
J:Positively, without a doubt, Jesus, and His death on the cross is supremely important to them. I never was taught or given the impression otherwise.
How can Jesus death on the cross be of supreme importance to them if adventists hold opposite views about it (paid / didn't paid for sins)? These views exclude themselves, still they consider both to be equally valid. You can be adventist and hold either one of it, take your pick.
Gabriel |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1435
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2011 - 10:49 am: | |
Tfelmon,
I am not new to anxiety. I have sought professional help through the years, read every book on the subject, became the model of recovery and coping tecniques and helped others manage symptoms, panic attacks and so forth.
I also know what it means to have to maintain headway to keep from losing ground and falling back into fearful retreat patterns.
I also am well familiar with 'imagination on fire' , compulsing and all the rest that comes with somatic symptoms.
I agree, religion can aggrivate and compound stress and anxiety by it's very nature. It is a base model for thinking and interpreting life.
However, please know and understand that I am not delusional, psychotic or irrational.
So please do not apply the mental health filter.
The answers I need and seek are common to the everyday man. The fact that I cope with stress and anxiety does not exempt me from the realities of Biblical truths or the ability to understand them.
I mentioned the anxiety which was a mistake only to make a point that for some of us, doing nothing is sabotage.
Gabriel,
I do not have anything meaningful to add. |
Tfelmon
Registered user
Username: Tfelmon
Post Number: 74
Registered: 7-2011
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2011 - 11:13 am: | |
@Jim, When applying the mental health filter, I'm stating only my observation which forms an opinion of which I'm entitaled. I'm only speaking from my expereince as anxiety doesn't help logical thought much less simple understanding of simple Bible truths. I've been there, done that, and got the T-shirt. And yes, I can't help but notice your complications with trying to undertand "answers...that are common to the everyday man." Since you are a "model of recovery" why are some of these issues difficult for you? I've read many posters offering you hope, solace and advice through experience and scripture only to be confused by your remarks to them. Instead of of writing a long explaination of your version of "why I can't" take their sugesstions and apply them absolutely. See what happens? It can't hurt, because what do you have to loose? I'm confident it will not cause you any more stress and anxiety than you are expereinceing now. Being called out is part of recovery (I've had my share of recovery)so consider this post a kindly gesture of calling out. |
Lori
Registered user
Username: Lori
Post Number: 123
Registered: 11-1999
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2011 - 2:05 pm: | |
Jim,
I don't set aside the list of those who will not inherit the kingdom. I Cor 6:11 "sets them aside" when it states, "And that (those who would not inherit the kingdom) is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."
They were washed in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit of God. They were sanctified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit of God. They were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit of God
They were washed, sanctified and justified by two things: the Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit of God. They did no works of preparing themselves for it and no works of retaining it.
Ephesians 1:13,14: "And you also were INCLUDED in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. HAVING BELIEVED you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit who is a deposit GUARANTEEING OUR INHERITANCE until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory."
Our inheritance is guaranteed by the Holy Spirit. |
Nowisee
Registered user
Username: Nowisee
Post Number: 999
Registered: 5-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2011 - 4:47 pm: | |
Jim, you DO have a Home--His name is Jesus. Anything stating the opposite is lying to you. He certainly doesn't want you to be tied in knots...He wants to give you Rest, real Rest. You can trust Him, you really can. |
Christo
Registered user
Username: Christo
Post Number: 290
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2011 - 10:27 pm: | |
I liked todays daily Spurgeon, Tues Nov. 29, it fits this thread.
http://www.thedailyspurgeon.com/
Chris |
Lori
Registered user
Username: Lori
Post Number: 126
Registered: 11-1999
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2011 - 5:39 am: | |
Chris,
Thanks for sharing the link. It does fit--perfectly. "Hideous patchwork" we create when we try to add our works to the work of Christ on the cross. We actually destroy the perfected work of the cross when we try to add our additions.
Lori |
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