| Author | Message | ||
| Goose Registered user Username: Goose Post Number: 32 Registered: 11-2011  |
OR, MT, and WA have Death With Dignity Laws. What Is Your View on this subject? Does God want to squeeze every last bit of suffering from humans? If so, of what value is it? Here's a quote from a palliative (end of life) comfort care medical doctor: "If anyone has a moral judgment on these people, let them first get into that person's shoes, or shut up." | ||
| Wiredog Registered user Username: Wiredog Post Number: 284 Registered: 8-2010  |
Goose, It's not an issue that I have honestly thought to wrestle with so my comments are not intended to anger. I suspect by commenting on it I am wading into it. I would first start out by asking for a Scripture where we Jesus or the Apostles are recorded killing someone out of mercy. Second, granted the Apostles were an unrepeatable group of men, I would then ask were there any instances in Scripture where we are told it is OK to kill out of "love"? As a side note I found it interesting that the impersonal term "palliative care" is carefully chosen. Palliate is from the Latin meaning to cloak something to make it seem less serious. So is it saying it makes the killing less serious or the effects of the disease less serious. | ||
| Kelleigh Registered user Username: Kelleigh Post Number: 272 Registered: 7-2011  |
Those with a terminal or hopeless illness should have the option of a pain-free, peaceful and dignified death with legal voluntary euthanasia. I'm for compassion. | ||
| Handmaiden Registered user Username: Handmaiden Post Number: 268 Registered: 7-2008 |
Life and death is in God's hands alone. Are we any of us more compassionate than He is??? | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1372 Registered: 7-2004  |
Interesting question. I strongly value both life and personal freedom. With abortion the answer, for me, is easy because that act takes away both from the unborn baby. In the end of life questions those two values can be at odds. When I consider this question I must also consider whether it is right to always do everything within our power to preserve life, if we aren't actively preserving life are we in fact contributing to the taking of life? If a child is drowning in the river and we stay on the bank and watch did we contribute to their death? If someone stops breathing and we do not resuscitate them did we contribute to their death? Why is the second scenario acceptable and the first one not? If a DNR order is reasonable to me, despite my value of life, why oppose the option for death with dignity? I'm really not sure. I don't think that I could personally ask for death over life. I certainly couldn't perform the act. But I am not certain whether i have a moral obligation to prevent others from pursuing this course. | ||
| Leonie Registered user Username: Leonie Post Number: 18 Registered: 10-2011 |
This debate raises interesting questions..... Who would be the ones to administer euthanasia? The doctors would have an ethical problem, since they have sworn to save lives in the Hippocratian oath. We would talk about a new profession. In Netherlands it is permitted to perform euthanasia, they have special hospices where people stay before the act is carried out. However, there are certain requirements that have to be met in order to have euthanasia. Among others they have to have a terminal illness, and have to have expressed deathwish to two different instances over a certain period of time. A lot has been written about this topic, and the views are many - bottom line for me is that life belongs to God, and how long or short my life is going to be is something I trust Him to decide. Personally, I have given a lot of thought to the subject, and even wrote a paper on euthanasia in my ethics class. I went to London, spoke with representatives from the Voluntary Euthanasia Society. In the middle of my work with the paper, my grandmother died. She had been sick for almost 20 years. Many a time she would say things like: "If it wasn't a sin to commit suicide, I would gladly do so." Fourteen days later my aunt and uncle commited suicide. They had been disabled their whole lives, and right before choosing to leave, my aunt had a stroke which left her even more dependent on care for about everything. I have to admit that my paper got a very personal touch, since death came so close. It made it very difficult to not get too personal. Back then my conclusion was that I was for euthanasia (not very popular with my ethics teacher....). Now, with distance to these events I guess I am more into the line that it is not always right to save a life, even if one can. Sometimes I think that modern medicine has come too far. People are not allowed to die, even if it would be natural to do so. So, I guess my views have changed over the years, I have learned to trust God more- also in this matter. I personally want to leave it up to Him. He knows when it is time for us to leave.... Monica | ||
| Goose Registered user Username: Goose Post Number: 33 Registered: 11-2011 |
Thought provoking replies. I don't know that we can define ending physical human suffering as murdering someone. The disease or illness is already doing that. The Hippocratian oath is "to do no harm." I personally know the physician I quoted in my OP and worked with him as I served in the same hospital, a resident chaplaincy. Not everyone out there has seen, as this physician has, the degree of suffering people face in a myriad of different diseases and illnesses. So his words have great weight and credibility. We also ought to consider animal life. God gives animal life, too. Yet, out of an act of love and compassion, we mercifully let them go over the rainbow bridge. What is the difference? We can not argue that humans have souls/ spirits and animals do not. We don't know that. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2270 Registered: 7-2007 |
There is a big difference between people and animals. Animals were given to man for food after the flood. "Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you..." Genesis 9:3 Jesus didn't die for animals. Another thing to consider is: a person suffering horribly at the end of their life who isn't saved. Is it more merciful to withhold life support so that they can go into a much more horrible misery than what they had here? Also the Bible says not to kill people. It doesn't say "unless." | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2271 Registered: 7-2007 |
Here's a link to an article about euthanasia. http://www.current-oncology.com/index.php/oncology/article/view/883/645 | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 239 Registered: 2-2011 |
The statement from the palliative-care physician leads me to believe he may be speaking from a position that does not include God in his philosophy concerning the dying~ If...you truly believe God is Sovereign over ALL His creation, then it seems to me that includes not only when we are born but when we die~ When humans begin to put their wisdom above the Almighty it is a recipe for disaster~ I would not like to be in the shoes of the one who made a euthanasia decision on ~ judgment day! We are the 'created ones'~ who are we to make decisions that are God's alone? ~mj~ | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1373 Registered: 7-2004 |
Goose, we do know that man is created in God's image and animals are not, we also know, as Asurprise points out, that Jesus death was for man not animals. There is no account of God breathing spirit into any animals, but that is how man is described. Animals were simply spoken into being. The difference between man and animal is considerable if you look to Scripture. Unfortunately SDA theology about the nature of man makes him no different than the animals, except for greater reasoning ability. | ||
| Goose Registered user Username: Goose Post Number: 34 Registered: 11-2011 |
I think we aren't on solid ground when we begin to infer that because Jesus paid a hefty price to ransom mankind, therefore creatures are of less value; food to be eaten as one poster put it. Jesus said not one sparrow falls without the Father. So, they, like it or not, are of great value. "For all forest creatures are mine already, the animals on the mountains in their thousands. I know every bird in the air, whatever moves in the fields is mine." PSALMS 50:10-11 The death with dignity laws are for people who have a terminal illness with 6 months or less to "live." Two physicians must concur. I'd like to reason with Asuprise about his comment about someone not saved going to more horrible misery. The apostle Peter did something very much like one who is suffering a painful and dehumanizing death. He averted suffering when he decided not to be associated with Jesus. He did so because he was afraid of the same fate, or worse. Did Jesus condemn him to "much more horrible misery than what they had here?" No. Right after Jesus told him how he would deny Him, in the very next breath said: "Let not your heart be troubled. I go to prepare a place for you." And then He made this promise emphatic by saying "if it were not so, I would have told you." John 13 and John 14 has a chapter division placed there for one reason and one reason only. It's too hopeful. Somehow, we religious people need to be able to say who will be lost and who will be saved. Its makes us feel good to do that. But that's not our business, but God's, friends. If folk are so keen on finding value in end of life human suffering, come to a hospital sometime and ask to visit someone who has colon cancer with a blockage, and stay there and make yourself watch as the patient has defecate THROUGH THEIR MOUTH. And then sit down and be with this person's loved ones awhile. How long do you think that family will let you stick around if you tout off "this is God's will." I bet they would ask you to leave. | ||
| Kelleigh Registered user Username: Kelleigh Post Number: 273 Registered: 7-2011 |
Goose, when you witness the suffering some people endure before they die it can provide a different perspective on this sensitive issue. Yes, God is far more compassionate that any human. Yet He allows suffering. Does this mean we should turn a blind eye to suffering on earth? Of course not. God does not expect humans to decide who lives and who dies. That is not our call. Voluntary euthanasia however isn't about choosing death over life. The individual is already dying. God expects humans to relieve pain and distress where we can. Legal voluntary euthanasia would be a final resort after everything else had failed. Voluntary euthanasia would often involve witholding further life extending medical intervention (except pain relief) according to the wishes of the individual. | ||
| Handmaiden Registered user Username: Handmaiden Post Number: 269 Registered: 7-2008 |
The process of dying begins at birth. We are all aging and dying. We all have an appointment with death. God is the author of life. He in His mercy appointed us all to die...so that we would not live forever in a fallen state. i am all for relieving pain and suffering believe me, i think anesthesia is the greatest discovery, but i am against using lethal injections to hasten death, even in a "terminal" illness. How often have doctors given patients six months to live only to have patients recover and live on for years? Cannot God end a person's life sooner or pain free, if He so chooses??? Does He need our help or for us to make that decision? His ways are not our ways. His ways are higher than our ways. If i would end the suffering of a terminal patient, who is in agony out of compassion... and God does not end that life in the same manner....and God is infinitely more merciful and compassionate than i am. Then i must trust God that He knows more than i do. I must trust God even in the midst of suffering my own or that of a loved one or i cannot trust God in all things. God delivered the Hebrew children in the fiery furnace and Daniel in the lions den. He delivered Peter, and Paul and Silas from prison. He did not deliver the apostles or the multitudes fed to lions in the Colosseum from a martyr's death. Many Christians were oiled, hung on crosses and set on fire to the light the Roman roads. God allows suffering, disease, wars, even the holocaust and yet He is more merciful than i am. Legal voluntary euthanasia is a very slippery slope. Like abortion it would start out only when it is "necessary"... to save the life of the mother and ends up being used as a method of birth control or gender selection. Man cannot be trusted with the sovereignty of human life our best motives and intentions are flawed. We do not know the begining from the end and cannot sit in judgment of God. Better to leave the begining and the end to Him. Life and death should be left in God's merciful hands and God's hands alone. The moment of our birth and the moment of our death are His to determine. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1376 Registered: 7-2004 |
Handmaiden, Couldn't you use all of those same arguments to deny any medical treatment? No pain medications because if God wanted a person to be pain free He would provide that. No cancer treatment, if God wants to heal you He will. No emergency appendectomy for you child, if God allowed it to happen there must be a reason. Be careful of the ultimate conclusions of your arguments. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2616 Registered: 5-2007  |
My own thoughts on this topic apply only to myself. Years ago while I was still a renegade Adventist and just out of the Marine Corps, I worked at the California Veterans Home in Yountville, in the Napa Valley. I was an aide working on one of the hospital wards unofficially called a “death ward” because most patients were not there to get well. One of my patients was suffering from an advance case of Parkinson and would plead with me to ‘end his pain’. To this day, my feeling that killing other than in self defense or in service to my country is murder. To me, the bible is very clear on this topic….but: While I would not want to consider suicide, I would not want to personally suffer the way I watched my patients die. What I mean is that I wouldn’t want ‘extreme measures’ taken to keep me live when the prognoses is ‘terminal’. Rather, since my soul is secure in Jesus Christ, it would be far better to let things take their natural course without doing something to end my life prematurely. All of which is to say, I would not want to decide this for another person. This gets very personal. My wife of forty five years now has Parkinson and I know to much of what may lay ahead for her. This is a burden I wish I didn’t have. Phil | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 244 Registered: 2-2011 |
~Goose~ Even though I do not agree with 'assisted suicide', I want you to know that I feel your angst regarding this matter~ I cannot help but wonder if this is something you are going through at this time with a friend or family member? Your passion is evident in your post #34~ If this is the case, please know I will keep you in my prayers~ ~mj~ | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2273 Registered: 7-2007 |
Ric_b; the Bible says: "Thou shalt not kill" not "Thou shalt not heal." Goose; I don't know all the answers. I just know that if Jesus hadn't have died for us, we would ALL have gone to hell. He provided a choice where there wasn't one before because we all (except for Adam and Eve) were born sinners. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2617 Registered: 5-2007 |
Asurprise, In 1611 language the word "kill" means "murder" in modern English. Whereas, the word "slay" was used to refer to killing someone that is not murder in the KJV of the bible. King David killed many times but when he arranged Unriah's death, that was murder. Anyway, I don't think I get your point. What does killing or not killing have to do with healing or not healing? Phil | ||
| Handmaiden Registered user Username: Handmaiden Post Number: 270 Registered: 7-2008 |
Dear Rick, i am all for saving life...i am just not for ending life. i know it is hard. It is hard for me too. I do not pretend to understand WHY, God allows pain and suffering and evil to exist. All i know is that He asks me to trust Him and that i am glad to do with all of my heart. i know him. i know He is love and He is good and in Him there is no darkness at all. His mercy and lovingkindness are new every morning, i know that this life is temporary and someday soon there will be no more pain or suffering or tears or sadness or death or evil for ever and ever and ever and we will dwell in His presence forever. i am no stranger to suffering and death. My mother suffered horribly for years before she died. She begged me to put her out of her misery. i would not wish that on anyone. My own father was murdered. i work in a medical facility for veterans. i have seen first hand the the horrible and terrifying effects of war on young men and emotional scars that can literally destroy the life of whole families. i arrange transport for the palliative care patients. i have seen enough and heard enough. i am glad that i am not God because i would end it all now. But He in mercy is waiting for that last one to be saved .... maybe someone you love. He is waiting patiently for the cup of iniquity to be full.... before He pours out His wrath against it. I have seen horrible deaths often enough that i have asked God to just let me die in my sleep. But He has told me to stop praying that and to pray that my death would be for His glory. i think of Jim Elliot and Nate Saint and the other missionaries to the Accua Indians in Ecuador and how they were martyred and yet through those deaths the whole tribe came to life in Jesus. i look at the indescibable, excruciating horrific death of Jesus on the cross and through it we gained eternal life. i marvel at the wisdom of my God and i will continue to trust in Him in all things. love handmaiden |
