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Rain
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Username: Rain

Post Number: 28
Registered: 9-2011


Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 4:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As formers, how have your views of Revelation, Daniel, and other prophetic material changed? I understand that interpretations of the material very well may vary between you guys.

The SDA interpretation of Daniel and Revelation were taught to me all growing up. I may not have gotten the whole SDA package, but I got a whole lot of prophecy spoon fed to me. Now, as a former, I feel uncertain about the future. You know, as an SDA I knew what was going to happen: Sunday Law, persecution, Second Coming, and everything in between. Now, I've lost that confidence in knowing what will happen. This isn't to say that I need to know. It's just a disorienting feeling, going from a know-it-all to a know-nothing.

So, what do you guys think about prophecy? Have you replaced your SDA interpretations with new ones? Did you keep some of the SDA interpretations of prophecy? Have you become apathetic and decided that if something happens you'll know it when it does? (I'm kind of at that point)
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 9527
Registered: 3-2004


Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 7:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It felt good to me when I was born again. I did not have to have all the answers to what the Bible says. When I read the NT through in 2004 and got to Revelations it did not scare me to read it as it did when I was an sda.
The pastor at the Green Valley Calvary Chapel in Henderson, NV is preaching through Revelations now. Just go to a search engine and look for my church. You can hear all his sermons there.
I still do not have all the answers and that is okay with me.
Diana L
Wiredog
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Username: Wiredog

Post Number: 286
Registered: 8-2010


Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 9:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rain, I too was fed at the Daniel & Revelation Crusades. I helped out as a little boy since my father was an ordained elder and I hung around him. When I grew up I was a Deacon and always heard that "stuff".

Honestly now I am glad to know what EGW planted in out our minds was false. I am even more glad to know that regardless of how it happens and transpires, Jesus is in charge. If you consider the fact, He knew each one of us and preordained the time and manner we come to know him, I don't doubt that he is watching over all of us and will provide since He is never surprised by the events.

What do I think about prophecy? I think it will all be fulfilled as that is what He promised. With that same amount of belief that prophecy will all be fulfilled I have that same confidence that He is in charge and I am saved. I used to wonder what it is to live like that, as I feared the financial collapse, the wars, the famines, the persecution. Now I see it differently.

They would happen and God is telling us they will happen because I keep ALL my promises now go and tell others I am the Lord of their Salvation too.

(Message edited by wiredog on December 10, 2011)
Asurprise
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Username: Asurprise

Post Number: 2281
Registered: 7-2007
Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 10:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know that Revelation 13 prophecies that some religious/political power will take over the world in the end. For all I know, it could be Islam. The Muslims seem to want it bad enough! And organizations such as CAIR (council on American-Islamic Relations), seem to be trying to make it happen. Also it's curious that a favorite way for Muslim countries to execute people is to behead them, when Revelation 20:4 talks about the people who refused the mark of the beast being beheaded.

Or it could be that the devil is trying to get all of his false religions together to form one world religion. I think I noticed in the news that the Roman Catholic church doesn't want to criticize Islam anymore. And the SDAs themselves seem to be co-operating with Islam. Look at that article in Adventist World about the Muslim leader having dreams telling them to co-operate with the Adventists! Here's the article:

http://www.adventistworld.org/article.php?id=708

But of course I don't know what will REALLY happen in the end times. The important thing is to be saved and trust God! A Christian knows that in this world he/she will have trouble, but this life is like a fraction of a split second compared to eternity!
Foofighter
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Username: Foofighter

Post Number: 192
Registered: 7-2005
Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 11:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rain,
I'm thinking that perhaps, much of Revelation applies to Israel. God began His story with Israel, Jesus came through Israel, the Church is grafted in (the time of the gentiles) and then Jesus returns. If the fulfillment is told through Israel, to me, it gives a focal point for the world to see things happening in one central spot. I have heard the term "Israel is God's time piece". That makes sense to me.

I wasn't raised SDA, so I didn't have all the fears of D&R. I did notice that there didn't seem to be much excitement about Jesus coming again. In theory they gave lip service, but if there seemed to be something happening in that direction, I usually saw fear and angst. I didn't understand why for a long time. I was excited about it, and thought a group with the name "Adventist" and such a focus on the Second Coming would be too. But, after a while I understood why they felt the way they did. Thankfully, I never absorbed the fear of it, and still maintain an excitement about it.

Not to get too long-winded, but I think Jesus coming could be soon. I believe that Israel and the Middle East is key, and we are at a place in history that things can happen on a truly global scale, and the whole world can see these things coming to pass. We never had the technology for that before, or to enforce any type of religious or financial global entity.

I don't believe in any type of Sunday Law. I don't think a day will be important, it will be about who.

These are my thoughts. I'm a babe in the prophecy woods!!! But even in my later years in SDA I started to look to Israel for fullfilment, not the SDA point of view. The Sunday Laws just started to sound silly.

Good topic!
Foofighter
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Username: Foofighter

Post Number: 193
Registered: 7-2005
Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 11:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Asurprise,

I know what you mean about the Muslim issue. I just re-read the article written by Johnsson. MIND-BOGGLING! Yes, I'm yelling. Yesterday, I watched a program on the Hope Channel, I think it was called "Global Missions". It was the same thing! How much SDA's and Muslims have in common. And of course the negative comments about Christians. Good grief!!!!!

Adventists are so deceived! They are on board with anything and everything that is NOT Biblical Christianity, or so it seems.
Kelleigh
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Username: Kelleigh

Post Number: 282
Registered: 7-2011


Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 2:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Rain, this is a really interesting topic. I guess for me, it's unsettling to begin reinterpreting the prophecies of Revelation after having assimilated the sophisticated Adventist worldview. I read Revelation differently now. Thinking about Revelation, perhaps it should come as no surprise that the One who spoke in parables would reveal further messages to His church in a series of highly descriptive images?

As Scripture, Revelation has had a somewhat bumpy history. The great John Calvin wrote a commentary on every book of the Bible except for Revelation and Martin Luther dismissed it sub-canonical. Centuries later, Revelation continues to puzzle many readers. There are different schools of thought, preterist, historicist and futurist etc. Maybe we are trying to get 'too intellectual' about it's interpretation? Perhaps the message of Revelation is really simple? Words in pictures like a story book.

What would a child conclude? Just another angle.

In pictures Revelation vividly presents the nature of evil while highlighting how God's sovereign hand is always present. Evil can only do what God allows. Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the Lord over all history from beginning to end. So ultimately, the powers of evil are futile! This is a simple and extremely reassuring message from the book of Revelation?

(Message edited by Kelleigh on December 10, 2011)
Lori
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Username: Lori

Post Number: 133
Registered: 11-1999
Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 3:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As an Adventist, the end of time was something to be feared (and postponed). As an Adventist when something scary happened in the world you were trying to keep the Sabbath better, give up meat, stop drinking cokes and coffee. Appease God so the end time events would be postponed or at the very least you'd be in good favor when it happened.

Now? Well, my attitude is a lot different. If it's the end of time---bring it on!!!! Because I know who I believe in and I know where I'm going.

If you believe in Christ, and Christ alone, as the power of salvation why would you want to postpone being face to face with Christ? Why would you want to keep on living in this world of sorrow? There's only one reason I can think of........
Mjcmcook
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Username: Mjcmcook

Post Number: 252
Registered: 2-2011
Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 5:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Since being 'born again' and leaving the unique adventist worldview behind with it's warped thinking on the interpretation of 'end-times'~
I really enjoy studying with Christian pastors & teachers who have a love of God and prophecy~

I believe prophecy was given to us for a reason; I am no longer afraid of the 'end-times'~This is probably one of the reasons it was written~ so that "we" as God's children would not be afraid!

This is a HUGE relief!!!

~mj~
Johnr1937
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Username: Johnr1937

Post Number: 26
Registered: 10-2011
Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 5:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Diana L,
The Prophecy Knowledge Handbook: All the Prophecies of Scripture Explained in One Volume, by John F.Walvoord, is the best book ever on explaining ALL prophecies found in the Bible (800 or so pages). The book is very pricy, $143 new from Amazon but can be purchased used from around $20. The book contains both old and new Testament prophecies and their fulfillment(s). Inside jacket, "John F. Walvoord, one of the preeminent Bible scholars in the world today, explains in one volume every key prophecy from Genesis to Revelation - those already fulfilled as well as those yet to be fulfilled. He also discusses the importance of prophecy and guidelines for interpreting it."
At the time Walvoord wrote the book he was Chancellor of Dallas Thelogoical Seminary. He served as its second president from 1952 to 1986, and was on the Dallas faculty for fifty years. He also co-edited the best selling BIBLE COMMENTARY, the Bible Knowledge Commentary.
This isn't one of those "modern day" prophetic books you can find by the dozens, but a well written and detailed book (with supporting scriptures). The price is prohibitive for some, but I would not part with my copy for twice what it sells for new. If you want prophecy to be explained the "proper way", then this book is for you!
John
Johnr1937
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Username: Johnr1937

Post Number: 27
Registered: 10-2011
Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 5:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry, but I should have addressed my post to Rain rather than Diane. I'll do better in the future!
John
Ric_b
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Username: Ric_b

Post Number: 1382
Registered: 7-2004


Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2011 - 6:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rain,
Change number one was the realization that figuring out all of the details of end time prophecy wasn't necessary to keep us from being deceived (and ultimately for our salvation). SDAism seems to miss the "if the could be" part of the deceiving even the elect. I know that my salvation is secured in Christ, not in my knowledge of end time prophecy.

With that change came a less dogmatic view towards alternate explanations. Personally, I lean towards the view that the "end times" began during the time of the apostles, specifically at Pentecost. And I view these as prophecies concerning the church that are given for our assurance that despite persecutions and apparent defeats that God and His church remain and prevail.
Ric_b
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Username: Ric_b

Post Number: 1384
Registered: 7-2004


Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2011 - 10:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kelleigh,
To add to your notes about the bumpy history of Revelation. It was one of the last books to be widely accepted as part of the Canon. The Eastern Orthodox church accepts it as canonical, but doesn't include it within their liturgical readings. And it had many Christian critics throughout history. Erasmus, a Catholic contemporary and key opponent of Luther also raised questions about it's place or value in Scripture. While Luther held a very low view of the book (based on a combination of historical and theological factors), he did include the book in his translation of the New Testament into German. But he included an introduction that explained his reservations about the book.
As an interesting aside, Lutherans today do not share this view of the book of Revelation. Which is a good illustration of how differently SDA apply the writing of Ellen White (even though they will try to compare her to how Lutherans use and view Luther's writing or the Reformed Church uses Calvin's or the Methodist Church uses Wesley's. Those statements are deceptive.
Kelleigh
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Username: Kelleigh

Post Number: 283
Registered: 7-2011


Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2011 - 8:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ric, it sounds like some church father's may have had some doubts about Revelation's authorship?

I read somewhere (sorry to be vague) that when Erasmus prepared his Greek text he didn't have at his disposal a complete manuscript for the book of Revelation. Allegedly he translated the missing text from the Latin Vulgate back into Greek? That doesn't sound scholary or Erasmus-like. The 'missing text' included the warning near the end of Revelation about 'altering the words of the prophecy'. What a puzzle. Why would some manuscripts leave this out? If I remember correctly the manuscripts Erasmus used weren't early ones though.
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 13211
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Monday, December 12, 2011 - 12:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here's what the introduction to the book of Revelation says in the study notes from the NASB Study Bible by Zondervan:


quote:

Four times the author identifies himself as John (1:1,4,9; 22:8). From as early as Justin Martyr in the second century A.D. it has been held that this John was the apostle, the son of Zebedee(see Matt 10:2). The book itself reveals that the author was a Jew, well versed in Scripture, a church leader who was well known to the seven churches of Asia Minor, and a deeply religious person fully convinced that the Christian faith would soon triumph over the demonic forces at work in the world.

In the third century, however, an African bishop named Dionysius compared the language, style and thought of the Apocalypse (Revelation) with that of the other writings of John and decided that the book could not have been written by the apostle John. He suggested that the author was a certain John the Presbyter,whose name appears elsewhere in ancient writings. Although many today follow Dionysius in his view of authorship, the external evidence seems overwhelmingly supportive of the traditional view.




Colleen
Kelleigh
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Username: Kelleigh

Post Number: 287
Registered: 7-2011


Posted on Monday, December 12, 2011 - 1:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Colleen, my study Bible doesn't provide much information about the authorship debate. It backs the traditional argument. Which is fine by me anyway. I don't mind which man by the name of John wrote it as long as he (or they) were moved by the Holy Spirit!

Despite the misgivings of some church fathers and others, how can Christians today feel confident that Revelation belongs in the cannon? What about Revelation suggests it is inspired - other than the council of whatever deciding it should be in our Bibles.
Any thoughts?
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 13214
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Monday, December 12, 2011 - 4:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Revelation is full of imagery that occurs throughout the OT, and it very closely mirrors much of what's written in the major and minor prophets. If a person reads it as if it is the continuation of the prophecies of the OT instead of as an addendum to the more recent church, it makes a whole lot more sense.

If one reads it as prophecy written to enlarge on the prophecies for Israel in the five major and 12 minor prophets, it fits. It also dovetails with a lot of what Jesus said in Matthew 24 and what Paul wrote in 2 Thessalonians and also what Peter writes in 2 Peter.

Revelation has a great deal of material that reflects the OT, and if we read it as written primarily to Israel, in the same way the OT prophecies were written to Israel, things begin to make sense.

For example, we've been on a year-long Bible reading plan this year that organizes the books so it takes us chronologically through the story of humanity/Israel. This morning we read from Zechariah 6. It tells of Zech's vision of four chariots. The first was drawn by red horses, the second—black horses, the third—white horses, and the fourth—dappled horses. Interestingly, Revelation also has four horsemen on different colored horses—white, red, black, and pale as death.

It's significant enough that the marginal references and study notes refer the reader to Revelation 6.

In other words, Revelation is not an anomaly within Scripture. It is unique, but it reflects what was written in the OT and gives more detail.

One more thing: the "early church fathers" of the third-fourth centuries were largely "replacement theology" adherents, as in they believed the church replaced Israel in terms of receiving God's promises.

Neither Jesus nor Paul, however, teach from a replacement perspective. Romans 9-11 are very clear that God's promises are not revocable, and there is yet a future for Israel. If one reads Revelation from a perspective that God is giving His last revelation of the future to Israel, it no longer seems as much like a misplaced book.

And in the final analysis, Richard Peifer's article in the July-Sept. Proclamation is right on: Revelation is about the Lord Jesus. We worship Him because He IS. That's the story of Revelation!

Colleen
Kelleigh
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Username: Kelleigh

Post Number: 292
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Posted on Monday, December 12, 2011 - 4:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree, Revelation dove tails with the rest of Scripture. Also, Jesus divinity is emphasised in Revelation. This is also an important clue.
Alison1
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Post Number: 108
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Friday, December 23, 2011 - 7:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I wasn't raised in the SDA church but a convert to it for 30 some years. But when I finally left it took a quite awhile to reverse my thinking on Daniel and Revelation. The church I am attending, I am sitting in the Sunday School class that is going through the book of Revelation chapter by chapter. It is so interesting to get an entirely different view on it. I know that I am enjoying it thoughly. As far as what the SDA church teaches is no longer part of my biblical thought process. I realize that it's not about the Sunday laws or persecution. It truly is about Jesus and his Second Coming to receive all those who rightfully belong to Him. And thank you Colleen for the additional thoughts about the book.

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