| Author | Message | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1634 Registered: 7-2004  |
CS Lewis is like most of us, imperfect in what he says. He was clearly a brilliant man and a talented writer. But sometimes he might be over-thinking things instead of being satisfied with the simple sayings of Scripture. Kelleigh, God is merciful and loving towards us, but not because we have done anything that deserves this. If He gave us what we deserved, we would receive the wages from our deeds. Our deeds are sinful, and the wages of sin are death. But He gives us something that we have not earned (and therefore none can boast about it). When we start with the idea that God saves worthy people, we diminish His death. It isn't that strange that someone would lay down their lives for a good and worthy person. But to do that for someone who doesn't deserve it, that is something really special. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1635 Registered: 7-2004 |
Kelleigh, I guess I should have thought to add this before I posted, but sometimes I just don't think that fast. Instead of saying I think it would be more accurate to say that
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| Kelleigh Registered user Username: Kelleigh Post Number: 374 Registered: 7-2011  |
Hey Starlabs, I'm wondering what is wrong with the road to universalism in your opinion? Hi Asuprise, this is my contention, what does it mean to 'believe' or 'not believe' in Jesus? To me, the name Jesus is not like a 'magic amulent'. To believe in Jesus is to believe the message of His cross - which is to believe in forgiving love. Anyone who beleives in God's forgiving love, whether or not they know of Jesus, surely are covered by the promise? 'Do you see what I'm getting at? Hi Truman, I appreciate the counter verse you posted. Personally, I believe that salvation is by both faith and works. The two are inseparable where people have the opportunity to act. On judgement day, Jesus will not ask, 'Did you believe in my name'? He will ask, 'where were you when I was hungry, where where you when I was sick..' Salvation by faith AND works of love. When we fail we have the forgiveness of God. Hey Ric, I agree with you mostly, however we are still worthy of God's love and forgiveness by merit of being God's creation. We are not 'totally worthless' in His sight even though we are sinners. I don't think you believe an extreme position either. Belief that one is 'totally unworthy and undeserving' can underlie some emotional and mental problems, that's why I raise it. I do not believe God wants us to take an extreme attitude regarding our unworthiness. Are we not of more value than the sparrows? Just another lens on the issue of 'worthiness'. Enjoying the dialogue. Much to reflect on! | ||
| Kelleigh Registered user Username: Kelleigh Post Number: 375 Registered: 7-2011 |
Ric, Ha. We cross posted. Yes. I agree. | ||
| Leonie Registered user Username: Leonie Post Number: 44 Registered: 10-2011 |
On the "judged by the light they have"-note.... How do you guys understand and explain Romans 2, 12-16? I've always understood it to support the view that pagans are given a chance, even though they have never heard of Jesus.... It is possible that I am still under the influence of ellenism, so please enlighten me if this is far from what the text really says. Monica | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1636 Registered: 7-2004 |
Monica, The question of Romans 2:12-16 is a good case study in context. Paul is explaining salvation to the Romans through the first 8 chapters of the letter. All of these chapters flow together with the ones around them to develop his explanation. A key point of the entire chapter is found in the previous verse, that God shows no partiality. But to understand this verse within its context, we need to read forward almost a full chapter.
Notice the first section that I have bolded. What Paul concludes he had already stated what that all, both Jew and Gentile, are convicted as sinner before God. So however we move forward in understanding Rom 2:12-16 it has to stay consistent with everyone being a sinner, with none being righteous. The second section that I bolded begins to clarify Paul's early discussion of the Law, concerning both Jews and Greeks. The Law has a purpose and that purpose applies to everyone, both those who had the Law of God in writing and to those who only know God's Law through his invisible attributes (Rom 1:18-21). The Law holds the whole world accountable. Rom 2:12-16 appears to say that some pagans have obeyed the law, but if this is what the verse means then Paul is contradicting himself when he says "by the works of the law no human being will justified} v 20, and that "there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" vs 22b-24. Based on the Law, all have sinned and none have the righteousness to qualify for heaven. Notice also the continued theme "there is no distinction" this is the same point that we being made in chapter 2, there is no partiality. So our choices in understanding Rom 2:12-16 is that Paul is contradicting himself or that Paul is using an example to make a point. The second makes more sense to me. Reading a little further in Rom 2, we see that the Jews thought highly of themselves for having circumcision and the for having the Law. But Paul is trying to make the point to them that having the Law isn't enough, if you want to be righteous under the Law, you have to actually obey the Law. Paul makes this point by contrasting a hypothetical Greek who obeys the Law (despite note being given the Law) with the Jew who fails to keep the Law. It returns back to the point Paul made introducing this discussion back in verse 11, that there is no partiality with God. The Jews do not get a free pass simply for being Jews, they are no better than the Greeks when being judged according to what they have done. If we take the discussion in Rom 2:12-16 to be a hypothetical discussion (that is to say, IF a Greek always did good and never sinned, they would be righteous despite not having the written Law or circumcision) meant to explain to the Jews that what they have through their heritage is not enough to be counted as righteous, then Paul's statements leading into this section and following this section are perfectly aligned with what this section means. Otherwise Paul, under Divine inspiration, is contradicting himself and we are left trying to decide which is really true, that "none are righteous" and "all have sinned" or that there are some pagans who are righteous because they have regularly obeyed God-even though they didn't know it was God they were obeying. | ||
| Leonie Registered user Username: Leonie Post Number: 45 Registered: 10-2011 |
Thanks Ric_b, I guess I'm so used to the proof-text method that I've forgotten everything about reading a text in context..... I see your point, and understand that I have some unlearning to do concidering both my heritage and the "brainwashing" I've been subject to. Monica | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 930 Registered: 8-2008 |
Thanks Ric. Very good point. As well, even within the text of Rom. 2:12-16, we do not see Paul saying there are Gentiles who have completely kept the Law, even though they don't have the law: Paul notes that "their competing thoughts will either accuse or excuse them on the day when God judges..." Accuse, meaning there are areas where they have missed the mark. As well, he seems to be pointing to specific actions that may be in keeping with the Law, not a life of complete and perfect obedience. Some people will have times when they do what is right, even if they are not believers. But they will also sin at times in their lives, and their good actions do not balance out their sins. (Message edited by bskillet on February 07, 2012) | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2419 Registered: 7-2007 |
Kelleigh; Jesus is the Atonement. There isn't any other atonement. There's only one way to God and that's through Jesus. Here's something Jesus said Himself: “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6. For example, say, if a person rented a cabin by a river while on vacation, when they arrived; instead of checking in at the office and getting the key; they asked for a key to the cottage from someone down at the river fishing? When he didn't have it, they went into the local town and asked at the bakery? When they didn't have it, they asked the person at the neighboring cabin? Then finally they asked at the office and got the key? It would have saved them a lot of frustration if they had gone to the right place in the first place! When Dimi was crying out in anguish to her Muslim god, not knowing anything about Jesus - except that Jesus was supposed to be the "Christian God" - she was shocked when Jesus appeared and told her; "Follow Me." Of course, life became difficult for her when she became a Christian as you saw if you watched the video I posted; but the verse is clear. There's only salvation through Jesus, not the Muslim god, nor any other god. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1638 Registered: 7-2004 |
Start by asking this question: How good would someone have to be for God to consider them righteous? | ||
| Kelleigh Registered user Username: Kelleigh Post Number: 377 Registered: 7-2011 |
Thank you Asurprise, you explain this well. I haven't watched the YouTube video yet. I guess there is a part of me that still wonders whether confessing Jesus is the only way to salvation. There is a case for universal salvation in the Bible and a case for salvation through Jesus only. Ric, you are asking us to consider the question above. I suppose they would need to be as righteous as Jesus - as righteous as God. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1640 Registered: 7-2004 |
Kelleigh, Do you mean "universal salvation" in that all will be saved, or that all can be saved? | ||
| Kelleigh Registered user Username: Kelleigh Post Number: 381 Registered: 7-2011 |
Ric, I'm really not sure yet. Probably 'that all can be saved, with or without knowing Jesus'. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13389 Registered: 12-2003  |
Kelleigh, in Matthew 7:21-23 Jesus clarifies the issue of "works" at the judgment. He says,
It's not the works that determine salvation; it's whether or not we know Jesus. Good works can be done by anyone with a sensitive heart. Those good works, however, don't qualify us for God's kingdom if we don't know Jesus. Knowing Jesus is being born again...and being born again is not merely acknowledging that Jesus died on the cross to forgive sin. Jesus' sacrifice isn't an external event that took care of everyone. It takes care of our sin only when we admit we are helpless and unable to avoid sin and throw ourselves on the mercy of the Lord Jesus, receiving His sacrifice for us personally and accepting God's credit of Jesus' personal righteousness to our account. "Believing" in Jesus is not a mental acknowledgement. It's placing our entire existence on the foundation of Jesus' substitutionary atonement for my personal sin. No, the name of Jesus is not a magic amulet. It's the representation of who He is, of His sacrifice, of His substitution for my own sin, and it's the representation of His resurrection life that broke the power of death over me and gives me eternal life NOW! We are born again when we receive the resurrection life of Jesus and are transferred by the Father out of the domain of darkness into the kingdom of His beloved Son (Col 1:13). Colleen | ||
| Kelleigh Registered user Username: Kelleigh Post Number: 384 Registered: 7-2011 |
Thanks Colleen, your second last paragraph especially rings true. I'm trying to understand what it means to 'believe'. Revisiting the basics of our faith. If I understand correctly, there is a work that we must do before God's forgiveness can be granted. We must forgive others as we have been forgiven. This is not always easy to do, but may be one of the most significant acts of our lives? | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1641 Registered: 7-2004 |
Kelleigh, In case you didn't realize it, your statement contradicts itself.
if we have not yet been forgiven (because we must first forgive) how can we be asked to forgive others in the same way that we have already been forgiven? And it gets worse, if the manner in which we are forgiven is to first have forgiven others, does this mean that we only forgive others who have already forgiven others and so on... | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2420 Registered: 7-2007 |
Kelleigh; we can only forgive others as God has forgiven us. We come just as we are. We are God's workmanship. (Ephesians 2:10) Only God inside us by His Spirit can enable us to forgive others and when we accept Jesus, He puts His Spirit within us. That's what Colleen meant. Those whom God knows have His Spirit within. It's God's work to save us when we accept Jesus and God's work to change us after we're saved. It's all the work of God. Believing is simply trusting Jesus. "Then he brought them out and said, 'Sirs, what must I do to be saved?' And they said, 'Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.'" Acts 16:30-31 "To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory". Colossians 1:27 | ||
| Kelleigh Registered user Username: Kelleigh Post Number: 386 Registered: 7-2011 |
Ric, My statement was possibly clumsy. I appreciate that your comments are intended to help me clarify my thinking. I was thinking of Matthew 5:24 "Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift" and Matthew 6:12 "...forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors" and Matthew 18:23-25, the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant. My emerging(?) biblical world view is that 'forgiving love' is foundational to the Kingdom of Heaven. The Cross of Christ speaks clearly and eloquently to the universe of the incalculable value God places on forgiving love. It's central to the gospel of salvation. I am relying more and more on the story of the Cross as the lens through which I interpret Scripture. I am begining to appreciate forgiving others, not only as a requirement for salvation, but also as one of the gospel's greatest blessings. I'm not sure what you were trying to convey in the last part of your post. | ||
| Kelleigh Registered user Username: Kelleigh Post Number: 387 Registered: 7-2011 |
Thanks Asurprise. Replying to you and Ric here. I totally agree that it is the Spirit of God that enables us to forgive others. I also believe that the Spirit of God enables us to repent of our sins. I guess I wasn't really thinking about the order or chronology of the steps, just that forgiveness is a work that we must do too? Asurprise has offered some verses that imply/suggest this may not be the case. People who are not Christians forgive others. I believe this too is the work of the Spirit of God in the heart. I guess this is why I have less trouble believing that God's Spirit is available to all, and salvation is possible for all, whether or not they know, or want to know Jesus. (Message edited by Kelleigh on February 07, 2012) | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1642 Registered: 7-2004 |
Kelleigh, Consider whether there is a difference between God's Spirit working on everyone and God's Spirit dwelling in someone when they are born of the Spirit. (Message edited by Ric_b on February 07, 2012) |
