| Author | Message | ||
| Chyna |
Dear Shereen, You're in our prayers. No matter where you are, God will be with you. Cling to the Word of God, and His promises. Remember that Sabbath was so unimportant that the apostles never preached on it to the Gentiles. That you have all the security you need in your salvation ... in Him, Chyna | ||
| Chyna |
also Shereen, I don't think any Adventist church can shed its roots -- which are the doctrines of EGW without self destructing ... and therefore relinquishing their Adventist identity. | ||
| Sherry2 |
Shereen, the interesting thing that you mentioned too was your friend saying that her church is not EGW focused at all, but she still stated that you were caught up in things that are happening to bring earths history to a close, which she may not even realize what she is espousing is Ellen G White's views on end time eschatology. Shereen, understanding Jesus as the Sabbath may take some time. Think of the sanctuary system and think of all the parts of it...the Laver = Jesus, the Alter of Burnt Offerings = Jesus, the Table of Showbread = Jesus, etc., etc., is that your understanding? He fulfills each of the sanctuary items? Yes? Ok, now know this too...in Jewish culture, Jesus claim to "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light" = this to the Jewish people. The outer court was considered the way, the inner - the truth, and the light = the Most Holy Place. I learned this from a Jew here in Michigan where I live. Now, take your Bible out and read Hebrews 9 and read through it in entirety, also read Luke 6...Look how they questioned him on the Sabbath, and He refers back to the temple, and then tells them that He is Lord of the Sabbath. Sabbath is tied to the temple, and if Christ symbolized and fulfilled everything in the earthly temple, He also fulfills the Sabbath - for He is our eternal rest (we cannot save ourselves, and we rest in Him from dead works) every day of the week, not just Saturday. Think of the awesomeness of that! Also, I just want to share from my experience. I have gone back and forth on it..keep the day, don't, keep it, don't. It's been hammered in my head that if I leave the Sabbath (the formal day), then I'm lost in Babylon. My folks who recently left the church were told that by a head pastor who works for the conference. And here I haven't left Sabbath at all. He is in my heart! :) But if Sabbath is in question for you now, keep it in your home, and then visit different churches on Sunday, and pray for His will be done. The reason I will never return to Adventism is this: The corporation upholds EGW as a prophetess, they also uphold SDA being the Remnant church, and place suspicion upon all other groups. This is wrong and contrary to Scripture in a way that excludes everyone else from Christendom and makes them cultic because people are afraid to leave. My #1 reason for leaving - to know my salvation was based in Christ, not a denomination. Blessings to you. Keep asking questions when you need to. I hope this was helpful to you. | ||
| Cas |
Right on Sherry2, I agree with everything you said, these are exactly the reasons I left the SDA chruch and cannot go back. There are many liberal SDA church's out there that do not dwell on Ellen White, in fact the pastor may not beleive Ellen White is inspired, BUT...The SDA's are living in their arrogance of believing they only have the truth. IMHO you cannot seperate Ellen White from the SDA church, the very foundation of the church is formed by Ellen White and her "visions", the excluvisism has always been from the very beginning starting with the shut door doctrine and the 1844 debauckle. If you are confused about the Sabbath, continue to study and pray about it. Keep it if you want, but you do not have to continue on in a corrupt church to keep the sabbath! God bless you Shereen, my prayers are with you. Been there done that! | ||
| Chyna |
I thank God that no thing is too small for us to approach Him in prayer for. I am really really stressed out (hence the 3am posting). I had booked an expensive flight last summer for my 1 year anniv with my then boyfriend (incidentally SDA), and since he broke up with me one week before my flight I had to cancel. United slapped me with a penalty and gave me a credit. Now I'm trying to visit my Alma Mater on the East Coast and trying to use the credit but I've managed to misplace it even after writing it down and putting it in TWO separate areas. I think the stress is mostly coming from the fact that the airline credit comes from a result of a really shattering breakup and my strong yearning to be able to see the friends I love. Also please pray for me, I'm trying to make new friends from scratch and my insecurities are rising to the top. thanks, Chyna | ||
| Rich |
I'm a former SDA. My wife still holds to these teachings. She has rejected my spiritual authority in the home and over her as my wife because I "make her sin in regard to the Sabbath". She is a very typical SDA in her thinking and argumentation. I pray for her to see the truth of Adventism. Please pray for me to Love her dispite the division Adventism has brought to our home. Please pray for her, that God would open her eyes to the error she believes. If you have any suggestions, I would love to hear them. In Christ Rich | ||
| Lori |
Dear Rich, I was the Adventist wife of a non-Adventist husband. The best thing my husband ever did for me was to say nothing. Over the period of our married life his most effective witness to me was his stability. His assurance and acceptance of the events life brought his way. It was a long road, we were married for 14 years before I began to "see the light" of truth. Silently I had been puzzled how he could have more peace and confidence in God than I did. He lost his father as a teenager. His mother died after a 3 year convalescense, one of his sisters died after battling with bone cancer for three years (she was 48). He loved his family and he was there for them when they suffered. He grieved but he moved on. I was devastated. I questioned God's plan. I was angry that his sister died. But he had peace, he just said that it was part of God's plan for their lives. God had chosen the way for them to die and had given them "dying grace" while they endured it. I didn't agree. I say all this to give you this as an example. My husband did not try to tell me about the "true state of the dead". He did not present anything to me at all but the peace and confidence he had in God. Present that witness to you wife. Love her.....she is yours to love. Do not judge her and do not criticize her. She will see the peace, joy, love, confidence and assurance you have in Christ and she will realize how different you are from her in your relationship with Him. And pray for youself, and her, every moment. Ps 27:14 "Wait for the Lord; be strong, and let you heart take courage; yes, wait for the Lord". Lori | ||
| Violet |
Rich, One thing my husband did for me, I was raised SDA, he was not, although he was baptized he never really accepted EGW. Everything I would tell him he would make me prove it from the Bible. Not in an argumentative way, but almost like a helpless child. "Well, I don't remember reading that, could you find that in the Bible for me?" And stuff like that. I found myself running to the Bible and searching for those texts, often not finding them, because they were not there. He found my weakness, I love wine, and together we reasearched it Biblically. Hence the first crack in the Adventist armour. Then he came home with White's writings on masterbation. That really got me going. I could not believe she would say such stupid things. The rest is history. If your wife is a researcher, I love research, then buy her the White CD-ROM. It was the best $120 I ever spent in my life. I had all her stupid stuff available and would spend hours in disbelief at what I read. I think that is the problem with SDAs. They only have limited access to what they read about her, therefore they only read the palitable stuff. My heart and prayers go out to you. Vi | ||
| Rich |
Lori & Violet, Thank you so much for your remarks. I'm stunned by the quick response my request brought. I'm new to this site having found it just weeks ago. Both of your suggestions are wonderful and I will try to us them. Frankly, loving her now is very difficult because the battle has been going on for over 10 years (since I first left the Adventist church). I have been a very immature Christian over that time struggling with the guilt and lies from my Adventist experience. This was compounded by the ěbattlesî with my wife and the unsaid criticism of her family (all Adventists). In the past year God has been breaking me. In the process I lashed out at her several times. It has not been a pretty picture. The Lord finally, got through to me about two months ago (although I sense He is far from done with me). When this happened, I began asserting my proper role in the home. This brought things to a head and we have been on the brink of separation / divorce because of our situation. An equally, large challenge is our three Children. We have three wonderful daughters (13 ń 6) that I do not want to be pulled into Adventism. At this point I would do anything to spare them the pain Iíve experienced including letting my wife go if she chooses to do so. I struggle with my responsibility to them - to protect them spiritually. As I teach them truth from the Word, it creates tension between my wife and I because she does not agree. It is really a mess. Thus my reason for requesting your prayers. In Christ Rich | ||
| Violet |
I think I had it easy as my parents are both deceased and my only close relative that is active is my brother in law, my sister just kinda goes along with him. He and I have had major words, but I always tell him I love him and he does the same so we calm back down and go on. (He has been my b-i-l for 20 years.) I have found out that when you point out their errors you are attacking them right at the soul. They have believed this for X number of years. How could they be wrong? It is very hard for them to accept. I have given up on my friends. They just don't want to listen, and I wouldn't of either a year ago. It's like they have to want to listen to the Holy Spriit and until then its tough. I understand about your kids. It is very confusing for them, but kids are smart, they start figuring it out pretty quick. Keep showing them Jesus and Him only. They will have so much more peace with HIm instead of legalism. Vi | ||
| Sherry2 |
Dear Rich, Glad you stopped by. Can I ask you to consider something? You mention asserting your proper role? I have found that Jesus never asserted His role, and He treated us as sheep needing a shepard with love and compassion. I left the church almost a year ago, and if my husband had asserted his role, I would still be there, unable to escape the trap. But he respects our differences, and though it grieves me he is still SDA, I have learned to submit to my Father in heaven. It is His timing, not mine. I must not assume to know the will of God. You and your wife are a team. Treat it as such, and her with respect. I would repent deeply for any outlashes. I've hurt my spouse too, but it never glorifies God, and is so harmful to sharing the gospel. A leader is first off always a servant, and husbands are to love their wives as Christ loved the church. His love is unconditional. Nondemeaning. Always lifts up. Can your wife and yourself come to an agreement to let the children come with you on Sundays to church, and her on Saturday? Have you talked to your wife about salvation? Whom does she believe it is in? Does she have assurety based totally on Jesus Christ for salvation? I think our spouses must always be free to leave if they chose too. But first we need to let them know we are 100% commited to making this marriage work, and love them as Jesus loved us. I've looked at this time as God most definitely stretching me. I need polishing, and here we go. I do not understand why God led me out before my hubby except for the fact to stretch me, and teach me how to honest to God love my enemies (as we are attached to the SDA church still and I have to deal with so many people because of it and know the pain of their praying for their deceived sister), and truly live through the Holy Spirit to obey the 2 greatest commandments. I can only take it one day at a time. And only the Spirit through me. I've tried to emphasize with Jon's pain on this road too - telling how hard it was for me to go to church alone, and realizing how difficult it must be for him as well. Acknowledging to him that this is a hard road for both of us, and that my top desire is for "us", and not to let any denomination seperate us and that we are a Christian family together. We'll be praying for you. I hope I didn't sound too lecturish. I didn't mean to be that. This is your journey, and only you know best the circumstances of your family. Your daughters will see the love of Christ through you in respect to your wife, and to them. It is a hard road for sure. | ||
| Chyna |
Dear Rich, What grieves me the most is when my parents aren't acting loving to one another. It struck me the other day how much power my mom holds over the entire household, almost in a manner similar to emotional blackmail - if we upset her then everyone suffers for X amount of time. that was a side note and not a linear thought. When I was growing up with my sisters I think at some level we always thought we were to blame for our parents fighting - it's something not always conscious though. When my mother asked me about different things in our family my foremost thought was that a loving relationship between them was probably the most important thing because when the parents are secure, the family is secure. one of the first first things to figure out with SDA is if they are actually saved or not, even the most immature Christian knows that we are saved by Grace. Ephesians 2:8-9. I had this conversation with my SDA ex (I've never been SDA) and I'm sure it confused him on many levels when I asked him when he became saved. Many SDAs equate baptism with Salvation (in a manner similar to the Catholic church), but it isn't. Salvation is something personal, a personal decision between you and God. Many of us have found out the futility of debating Adventists doctrine with someone who is spiritually blind. Even those that were the most adamant and are out of SDAism and try to talk to those who are still entrenched encounter MUCH frustration. It's like an opaque obtuseness that only God can pierce. Continue to grow in your walk of faith, I believe that could be the best testimony to your wife, that and an attitude that loves peace and not contention. As for your daughters, teach them the truth of the Word. As others have said, the young pick up on things rather quickly. The greatest danger of allowing children to stay in SDAism is that they might not become saved, and that above all is the most important aside from miscellaneous doctrines. Chyna | ||
| Valm |
Rich, I don't think I could say it better than Sherry did. I will pray for you and your family. LOVE that wife of yours and remember why your married her in the first place. LOVE LOVE LOVE. Rich and everyone else. Pray for me and my family too. I wish to have my family at church with me every week not just on occasion and it has been a dilema. Valerie | ||
| Chyna |
Today at my church they had us put up names of those that are lost and that we are hoping to share the message of the gospel with. It was really moving, among those I put my ex and his 3 generations of his family, both sides up there. I believe in the God of miracles :). Chyna | ||
| Rich |
I want to thank all of you again who have responded to my prayer request and provided counsel. It has been a hard weekend, lots of negative thoughts about he marriage. Desire to leave etc. Only my little girls and prayer keep me going at times like this. Chyna, I understand your comment about ń what did you call it ń an opaque obtuseness. Iíve always called it invincible ignorance. Willfully denying the truth of Godís Word. Sherry2, You asked about letting the Girls go with me on Sunday and with my wife on Saturday. I canít deal with that kind of situation. Why? Because I have come to the conclusion after being out of Adventism for 10 years that it has no right to call itself a Christian denomination. How could I let my girls be taught in Sabbath school things that could endanger them spiritually? I feel Iíd be worse than an unbeliever. Besides I donít believe that kind of situation is Godís will for any Christian family. I believe (I know some of you ladies arenít going to like this) that when push comes to shove that the wife is commanded to follow her husband ń Period. The only exception is if he is leading her into sin. In my situation, my wife has chosen, after almost 9 years of attending the same church with the rest of the family (on Sunday), to stop and go back exclusively to attending an Adventist church. The church she has rejected, is where two of her children have been baptized. The church she has rejected, is where all of her children have been dedicated. She made this choice - I believe ń out of a rebellious heart toward me. As I said, I had a rough year and she had a lot of reason to resent me. But this decision came after I felt I had ěgotten over the humpî. Now I must explain to my girls why mommy does not go to church with us anymore. Why mommy goes to church on Saturday instead of Sunday by herself and stays away all day long. Iím a lover of John MacAurthorís messages and agree with his exegesis on Eph 5 (the roles of the husband and wife in the Christian family). The one thing that stuck me when I listened for the 5th time was his comments that I must ědie to selfî in the relationship. Even when she is at her worst I must bear it and not act out of self-serving motives. Do you ladies understand how hard that is for a man? To be ridiculed and disrespected by your wife is more humiliating and humbling than anything else Iíve ever experienced. All of you have encouraged me to Love my wife through this, which I know I must do but which is the greatest challenge for me. Christ Loved even when they beat him, and spat on Him. I do not have the ability to do this in myself and my prayers have not yielded a miraculous change in my heart toward her. I love her out of duty now only. This is a hard thing to say but I guess there is some advantage to being Semi anonymous. Iím sorry Iím rambling; Iím feeling a lot of the pain right now and need to get off this computer and prayer about it. Thanks again!! Rich | ||
| Doug222 |
Rich, As a man, allow me to interject. I have to agree with what the ladies are telling you about your role. I think the tendency is to take those parts of Ephesians 5 that we like, and ignore the parts that don't quite fit. We jump right on verse 22, while we skip past verse 21. Verse 21 says "submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of the Lord." What is really being called for is mutual submission. Paul, then goes on in verse 22 to give specific instruction to the woman, and in verse 28 to the men. Why does he do this? Because he is dealing specifically with the problems each gender has. First, he tells wives to submit. Then he tells husbands to love. To find out why, you have to look at Genesis 3:16. In God's curse on mankind, he tells the woman that her desire will be to her husband. In other words, women, by nature tend to want to be in control. This was the problem with Eve in the Garden and so it is the problem with many women today. God says her "desire" (talking about in a sinful controlling way--see Gen 4:7) will be to her husband. But then God follows up by saying, "and he (the husband) shall rule over thee. We've bashed the ladies, but men have a problem too. We tend to be self-centered and can be jerks at time. Paul's instruction to the men is to love. In other words, the woman's problem is control, and the answer is submission. The man's problem is selfishness, and our solution is love. If you take Ephesians out of context, you miss the fact that none of this was God's original intention. His original intention was mutual submission--and it still is. God always has a solution to sin, and Ephesians 5 points it out. Mutual submission via love and submission. Obviously the love men are instructed to have is agape love. Its that 1 Cor 13 love that raises the hair on the back of your neck everytime you hear it. There is no way we can ever demonstrate that kind of love to anyone, except that the Spirit of God takes control of us and produces it as a fruit of the Spirit (Galations 5:26). Hope this helps and my prayers will be with you. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Lori |
Hi, Rich, I'm going to expound on my understanding of what Doug has already written about. In reading your last post the analogy of the relationship of husband and wife to Christ and the believer jumped out at me. I understand your frustration over your wifes lack of respect for you. (When someone doesn't respect you; it's difficult to love them) But the fact remains you must still be a "gentleman". Christ is a "gentleman" in our relationship with Him. He graciously offers His way to us; he graciously offers His help. If, or when, we refuse Him he is a still gentleman! A gentleman never forces himself or his opinions on someone else. In order to have God's peace in you life, you must follow His example in dealing with you wife. Be a gentleman, do not force your way upon her. You find her difficult to love because she does not respect you; she most likely finds you difficult to respect because you don't love her. In our marriage relationship we assume that the love that gets us through all trials is personal love (agape). However, the type of love that the Bible speaks about [directed toward others that gets us through when agape love fails] is (agapao) impersonal love. When you can't personally love your wife, then that's when you fall back on impersonal love--you love her because Christ loves her. You love her because she is a believer in Christ. You love her because you love Christ. Christ questioned Peter in regard to these 2 types of love, in the book of John, when he kept asking him "Do you love me?" Each time he questioned Peters "love" he used a different term (all of which were translated "love" in the English). Love your wife (impersonally) on the basis of who and what you are in Christ Jesus. This love is possible when personal love is not! Take it one moment at time-- Yesterday, I read this little "note from God" it was of great encouragement to me: My dear child, Your lack of control is not due to the BIG burdens, but to your permitting the LITTLE frets and cares and burdens to accumulate. If anything unsettles you-deal with that and get that righted with Me before you allow yourself to speak to, or meet anybody, or to undertake any new duty. Look upon yourself more as performing My errands and coming back quickly to Me to tell Me that message is delivered, that task done. Then with no feeling of responsibility as to result (your only responsibility was to see the duty done) go out again, rejoicing at still more to do for My Sake. Your Heavenly Father | ||
| Lori |
Oops! I gave the wrong Greek word for personal love! The correct Greek word is <phileo>. Agape is our English word for the Greek word <agapao> (impersonal love). | ||
| Valm |
Rich, Prayers to you and your wife. Your marriage sounds like it is at the bottom of the valley and I am sad for the both of you. Rich, I appreciate your desire to be a spiritual leader. But matters of the spirit can not be coerced. Leadership does not mean dictatorship. You can and never will be able to force belief. But you can lead through example and LOVE. I also appreciate your longing to have a mate you are spiritually compatible with and can share with. But again it can not happen out of force. Just won't. Perhaps much of what is happening is you are reacting out of the humiliation that you are feeling. And the deep frustration of wanting everything to be in control. Think about it. My Brother, a very over the top SDA uses these smae verses to spiritually bully his wife. Any time she speaks to him of grace oriented verses in the Bible or something she has read or asks him to read something she has read, he cuts her off and tells her it is HIS job to be the spiritual leader and he will not take her suggestions. She isn't allowed to express any of her spiritual thoughts or ideas. And she is a very conservative SDA. Think about HOW precious your beliefs in God are and think about how deep they are. Then think about someone forcing you to do something you BELIEVE IS SIN. That is what you might be doing to your wife. Remember this is not about your wife defying you it is about her following her beliefs. You stated something to the effect that a wife should obey her husband with the exception of him leading her into sin. REMEMBER THAT FROM YOUR WIFE's POINT OF VIEW YOU ARE LEADING HER INTO SIN. Respect her for he dedication to GOD as she PERCEIVE IT NECESSARY and give her a break. She is suffering here too. She is grieving over the same things you are but from a different perspective. I would strongly suggest that the two of you have a CEASE FIRE for a while. Perhaps go away a couple of days (NOT ON THE SABBATH) and remember why the two of you had children together in the first place. I have more to say but no time. Rich I TRULY AM PRAYING FOR YOU. AND ALSO FOR YOUR WIFE. GOD BLESS YOU AND YOUR FAMILY. Valerie | ||
| Rich |
Valarie: The marriage is not at the bottom of the valley, it is dead! Neither she nor I have any desire for relationship because of the hurt and division caused by our ěReligiousî differences. I feel that our hearts have been hardened toward each other. She sees it as my fault because ń ultimately ń I left Adventism. This is true, I did leave. As for being the spiritual leader, it is not a ědesireî it is a command. I have no choice but to take this role, anymore than I have a choice to breathe. My only choice is how seriously I take the commands and instructions that the Word of God gives me. I guess I would have been better off allowing this false teaching to stay in my home unchallenged, and allowing my children to be taught Judizing heresies. This life would be much easier, that is for sure. This is about my wife defying me & God. Yes, she claims that she does this out of a conviction to follow her beliefs. But anyone claiming to be a Christian must consider & follow the entire counsel of God, not just the parts you like or want. This is classic Adventism, ignore that which does not fit into your theology, or discredit it as being ěchangedî or ěmiss-translatedî or ěmis-interpretedî. God establish an order within the home. The Husband is head over the wife as Christ is over the Church (Eph 5:23). If, out of Love and desire to bringing her into greater holiness, the husband tries to teach (through word and example) that the wife believes error, this is right in the sight of God. Anything else on the husbands part would be a failure on his part fulfil his role within the home. This fact escapes most evangelicals today since the Church has been deceived to believe in a form of Christian feminism that teaches that to be submissive is equal to being a servant. It teaches that equality allows the wife to defy the husbands decisions for the family and in the marriage relationship. Christian wives that have believing husbands that understand and take their responsibility seriously are the most blessed of all. Lastly Valerie, you advised me to respect my wifeís convictions and thd fact that she feels that she is being led into sin because she is suffering to. You are half-right. She is suffering also, and she does have convictions. Some of these convictions are noble, some are dishonorable. If your husband felt convicted, he should have a relationship with another woman would you ěrespectî that conviction? You may be thinking that there is not connection but I say that there is. She has chosen another family over her own (the Adventist Church) for the sake of satisfying her own felt needs. She has chosen another Gospel than that preached by Jesus and the apostles to go after another Gospel (Gal 1:6-9). By what reason, and by what standard of Love, am I bound to not challenge her and continue to challenge her sin? How many times is the limit for confronting a ěbrotherî who has sinned? Thank you again to all you for your prayers Rick |
