| Author | Message | ||
| Valm |
Oh Richard, I am so sorry things have come to this for you and your wife. I can see that you are very firm in your convictions. I will not argue what the Bible says with you. Keep rereading those passages and pray to God to give you wisdom in how to use them in this situation. Add 1 Corinthians 13 to your list and please read my quoting Romans 14 from THE MESSAGE on the thread about Adventists friends. I am not a feminist. Actually in many ways I am a June Cleaver type. I appeal to you to take on your wife's perspective. She truly believes she is serving the Lord. You have been there, remember truly believing Adventism with your whole heart? And remember believing that once you presented it to people, they would believe too? And remember being totaly engrained in believing that to leave the Adventist church was to "grieve" away the Holy Spirit, to take on the Mark of the Beast, to seal your fate in hell? Do you remember reading the writings about fallen spouses? This is where she is at AND NO FORM OF COERSION will place her elsewhere. I truly appeal to you to know that if you are forcerful, bitter, angry, etc to her that it will confirm in her mind all that she fears. She will see you as the person who is persecuting her which is spoken of over and over in EGW's writings. She will develop a paranoia about you that you will be the first to turn her into the authorities should strict laws as they prophecy (which in her mind are a reality) come to be. This is not about her being scripturally incorrect. She really really believes this stuff. And for her to do otherwise is sin. You may see that she has chosen another family and another gospel, but if we sat down and asked her she would say the very same thing about you. She is not defying you; she is serving God as she believes. Do you not think using the example that my husband feels convicted to commit adultery going out on a reach? Do not compare apples with oranges here. If you do not feel that this is going out on a reach well then divorce her because that is what I would do if my husband was unrepentent. But I do not think the two relate and hope that you would not divorce her. Rick this is not about who is right and who is wrong. This is about whether you wish to preserve your marriage or not. I know of myself that if my husband forbade me to follow my convictions it would be a living hell for me. I know that there would be very little joy in this household. Rick my situation is different than yours. My husband is an agnostic. I have my own burdens to carry. And I know that when I tried to coerce him into church going it was ugly. He goes occasionally now, and when he does I am pleasantly suprised and do my best to make it enjoyable for him. Do you suggest since he is not living to his Biblical role that I should make life difficult for all of us in this household? Do you suggest that I leave him, although the Bible states that leaving a spouse is only justifiable in cases of infidelity? He is a good man, he works hard, keeps a steady job, is a good father, totally faithful to me,adores me and treats me well, does his best etc.... This is not a perfect situation but I have learned that anger doesn't solve the problem. I will continue to pray for you Rick. Keep on praying. My last word of advice to you is that the only person you can change is yourself. Others will respond to your actions but you can not change them. God can do that and if your lucky you might be a part of it..... Valerie | ||
| Rich |
Valerie, First, thank you for caring for a stranger enough to send me your thoughts. I did not mean to imply that you were a feminist. What I was saying is even those who deny this label have been polluted by the world because it is the ìeasy wayî, the politically correct way. I do remember the days when I believed the SDA message (with great shame) although I never accepted EGW. I remember the pride and arrogance of having the truth (with great shame). However, God in his mercy saved me out of that confusion and living hell. My problem is that now that I understand the true Gospel message, God has placed in me a disdain (dare I say hatred) for that same false gospel (really for all false Gospels). Unfortunately, with Adventism it is personal. Your comments about how she views me is all true. However, this I can do nothing about except tell her that this is how she is acting. She makes the choice if she accepts my words or not. She alone will answer to God for her choices. But your ìsolutionî would require me to expose my children to spiritual danger. I told my wife last night that she is free to believe anything she wants but she is not free to teach it to our children ñ Period. I also told her the cost of her ìfreedomî, that is our relationship, because regardless of her ìreasonsî what she is doing is wrong, is sin. God will forgive if she repents, but that does not mean He will remove the results of her actions. I am human and have feelings just like her. Over 10 years of this has taken its toll. Your situation is hard, but at least you know what you are dealing with. What I mean is I have a wife that sayís she is a Christian (God only knows). She acts like a Christian outside the home. But in our relationship she acts like the ìdevilî. Today is not a good day. Iím sorry if I sound harsh. It is a very hurtful situation. This is one of the few opportunities I have to express that pain and frustration. Lastly, please do not take any of my comments as accusing you or anyone. Just a bad dayÖÖÖ ÖÖÖ Rich | ||
| Valm |
Rich, I won't take your comments towards me at all. You are dealing with alot and I will give a measure of tolerance because of all that is going on. Rich have you gone to counseling? This is alot of stuff and it would be good for you to have a professional sounding board. There are great Christian counselors that can give you alot of insight into your situation as some straight talk. If you live in the Seattle area I know a REALLY good one. I understand your concern for your children but I would really encourage you to rethink your position. Religion can not be coerced. What message are you giving your children if they see you force your postion on your wife? Would you wish your girls to end up with a forceful husband as most of the time we marry someone very similar to our fathers as that is what we know and have developed a comfort to? Will your children be conditioned to recieve the true Gospel message? They just might percieve that their Mother is being persecuted and your actions could well backfire. Rich, I could not imagine my husband forbiding my children to go to church with me or pray with me or talk about my beliefs. It is not comprehendable. I would just die inside. I realize your intentions are good but I think your actions are getting all mixed up with your anger and frustration. Rich I know that your position is so much different than mine. Maybe this would help, maybe not. From time to time my children are exsposed to Adventism when we visit my family. It is not often as they live in Arkansas and I am here in Seattle. They obviously have alot of questions. I try to answer them in a neutral response. "Nana and Papa keep the Sabbath because...." I will even give them the Bible texts that my parents would. Usually they will ask me then why don't I and I will show them my point of view from the Bible and then let them think on it themselves. It shows my parents the respect the deserve, it demonstrates to my children the respect I have for my parents and my tolerance for other belief systems. It also gives me a chance to witness to them my on Bible study habits and to discuss conflicting doctrinal points of view they will come across through their life. If you do this with your children they will see a Father who is tender and respectful of his wife. They will experience a security in you as they will see that despite extreme conflict you will respect and love your wife. You will have an opportunity to explain your beliefs and compare them (remember using neutral tones: I believe she believes and no emotionally charged words.) I could go on as I see so many benefits to your children in the formation of both their spirituality and in their future relationships with whoever they marry. Rich you remember your days of adventism but I don't know if you got my point. It is that you have to work with and honor your wife from her perspective of reality. That is a TALL ORDER. But being a spiritual leader in such a delicated and difficult situation will take much bravery, thought, patience etc on your part. Rich, I would still love to talk to you but could we switch over to another thread? This is a prayer thread and I am wondering if we should make a new one. But by all means I will pray pray pray. God can work miracles.. Valerie | ||
| Rich |
Valerie, Thanks for the prayers and advise. No need to switch forums. I've said enough. We don't agree. That is ok. Best regards Rich | ||
| Chuckiej |
Reading this thread has placed a heavy burden on my heart. I am single and relatively young, but I know from a kid's perspective the pain of familial strife. Rich, I will pray for your children, as well as your relationship with your wife. It may seem impossible, God can do anything. My mother once told me that when I was 5 or 6, she had stopped loving my father because of his alcoholism. She wouldn't divorce him because he had not been unfaithful, but she actually prayed that God would let him die so she could be free. That was 19 years ago. Today, they're still married and head over heels in love with each other. Alcoholism and Adventism aren't the same thing, but my point is God can fix an impossible-seeming situation. Keep praying, and don't give up: with God, all things are possible. (Matt. 19:26). | ||
| Jtree |
Gee and OUR FRIENDS call this web site an ANTI-SDA site. We are REAL people with REAL needs. With real hurts, and real prayer needs. Nothing ANTI about anything here. Joshua of the Rock! | ||
| Valm |
If OUR FRIENDS the Adventists call this an anti SDA site, there must be something we are saying or doing to contribute to that perception. Communication and relationships are two way. Please let us all pray today that we can each find a way to rememdy this situation. Valerie | ||
| Sherry2 |
Well I'm going to ask for prayer for myself. I really hate asking for me, but I need to learn to reach out. I am really battling depression lately. Lots of decisions on the plate and don't know which one to choose....and just not sure where and what to do. House moving, job hunting, church hunting. I guess it's just stressing me a bit, and I am not sure what God wants us to do...Anyways, thanks. | ||
| Colleentinker |
Sherry, I'll pray for you to know God's will and to have peace as you wait for his answers. This whole area of life--decisions, giving them to God, not stressing--is an area in which I feel God is actively trying to teach me, too. Praise him for what he's doing in your life--praise is a great antidote for anxiety! In His love, Colleen | ||
| Sherry2 |
Thank you again Colleen. I really see His leading me, and through last night I got this thing on holiness and 40 day guide to fasting and prayer, and the whole thing was so in connection to everything else I've been learning, and I knew this is what God wants me to do. I've been trying hard to order my life, but keep it small and manageable. The prayer of Jabez defies that logic, and says to pray for God to expand my territory, and then asking his hand to be with me...it is the total dependence on Him that I inadvertantly am running from. Asking Him to expand I've done, but the yielding to realize as He does, it'll be beyond my human resources, and again I will have to intercede and depend on Him for the reality of the dreams He gives. This is really awesome. Thanks again. | ||
| Lydell |
Sherry, you're so right. Reaching out is very important. When we keep things locked up inside, it's as if it gives satan something to come along and play with. Often times just by verbalizing the problem, admitting there is a need, it's as if you've opened up the door to let His light shine in, and the burden begins to ease. I guess we have to actually physically hear the words, "God I need help" before the breakthrough can begin. You know Sherry, here you have been praying the Jabez prayer (and that is one very powerful little book!), and He is very definitely already expanding your territory. Okay, I'm praying specifically for you that when you step into the house He has for you, and the church He has for you, that you will immediately have the peaceful feeling of having come home. It's going to be very interesting to hear what divine appointments the Lord arranges for you in all these changes you are going thru. Keep your eyes and ears open. I am looking forward to hearing what happens. | ||
| Sherry2 |
You're right, Lydell. Verbalizing does bring into the light. So I shall keep verbalizing here folks....Might as well make things plain. If anyone of you women out there has suffered from bad PMS, I'd love to hear your stories on what worked for you. I have a guaranteed 2 weeks down, 2 weeks up every month. Before I understood salvation, I was suicidal these two weeks and on the verge of leaving the family as well. Dr.s though bi-polar but later realized it was severe pms. I'm looking for natural alternatives. Prozac doesn't work. Anyhow, help here would also be appreciated. You can e-mail me at sherryreinbold@home.com. Secondly, my husband hasn't gone to his own church in 8 weeks now. He's attended a couple times with me. However we talked last week about finding a church home we could both agree on. I basically brought up the topic. I asked if there was anything we could agree on as attending together as a family week to week, even Church of God 7th Day which believes nearly everything SDA's do, except no EGW, no IJ, no remnant church philosophy. I told him I'd go with him to any church (staying Christian ofcourse)he wanted except SDA if we could attend regularly as a couple. We have a Messianic Jewish congregation only 5 minutes from our home as well. What it came down to was he was settled and would not move, and in his eyes I am causing the wall of seperation, not him. He said he's willing to attend once in a while with me, make friends with my friends (which he has), but he would remain SDA. Not even going to Church of God 7th day together as a family would he do. I was just well shocked, in tears. Maybe I was nuts to says so but I did tell him "Then you must believe that somehow your salvation is tied to your church if you will not even for the unity of your family attend a church like the Church of God 7th Day that believes everything that you do practically." He denied that that was true, and then went on to ask how I could go to a church that believes the dead go straight to heaven. Anyhow, I guess lately my flesh wishes he'd just leave me. I know that is not the will of the Father. But I want to be honest here and say this is how I've been feeling. Spiritual warfare going on, yes siree. Most assuradly. That's where praying the Jabez prayer is really counting for me right now...praying that He would keep me from evil that I may not cause pain. In my spirit I do not want to cause pain, in my flesh I want to throw in the towel. Life is hard, but God is good. I know through Him we shall prevail. Yesterday I went to church by myself for Easter, and I just felt so alone. I couldn't even make dinner for the family. I just told Jon I had to leave for a season and be alone for a bit. So I drove to a church and just cried and cried, but this is where I'm at folks. Some days I'm as solid as a rock in Him, and others I just fall apart like mud. My husband is a great loving man who takes great care of us no doubt. The beauty of this was when I came home he told me he had thought about coming with me because he knew that Easter was special, and that had he realized it would've hurt me so, he would've come. It comforted me to hear that. Anyhow, two summers ago I was in the pit of clinical depression and all I could say over and over again in my heart was Life's a b*&$% and then you die. Now I have hope, and my phrase that repeats itself over and over again in my heart is Life is hard, but God is good. Much better, don't you think? :) "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference, Living one day at a time; enjoying one moment at a time; accepting hardship as the pathway to peace. Taking as He did, this sinful world as it is, not as I would have it. Trusting that He will make all things right if I surrender to His will. That I may be reasonably happy in this life, and supremely happy with Him forever in the next. Amen". Thanks everyone. | ||
| Lydell |
Sherry, I hope your gyn. has checked you out. There's always a chance that there is something that can be done to help. I feel for you there. Been on the hormonal see-saw myself. Please keep reminding yourself that you are NOT a rotten person on those days, that it is the hormones in control. And Sherry, it sounds like a very good sign that he made that comment to you when you came home. Maybe he is beginning to do some thinking after all. I don't think you were nuts to challenge him on seeing his salvation as being tied to his denominational label. Sounds like he needed to hear it put precisely so. Praying that it acts as shock therapy to him. And praying for you as well! He has promised us wisdom if we ask fo rit. | ||
| Colleentinker |
Sherry, I agree with everything Lydell posted above, from checking with the gyn. to what a good sign it was that your husband said what he did about hurting you. He did need to be confronted with salvation being tied to the church. We will be praying for you and for him. And praise God for what he's doing in him. One time I thought I'd lose my mind over my son's bad attitude and intractable behavior. A dear (now former SDA) friend said to me, "Tell God, 'I don't know what you're doing in his life because I can't see any of it. But I praise you for whatever it is you're doing and for what you have in mind for him.' î That son is 18 today and is born again and is openly verbal about discussing salvation and his relationship with God with anyone who wants to talk about it. He even witnesses to the SDA's he works with at his weekend job. We're holding you and your husband in prayer, Sherry. In His grace, Colleen | ||
| Sherry2 |
Thank you for your encouragement. I have a family practicioner but I don't think she really understands it that well. She had me on Prozac, 2 weeks off, 2 weeks on, but I talked with my pharmacist, and he said that would put a person over the edge and was extremely risky. So I put myself on full time instead. Made me too groggy though so I quit. I realized how severe it was when I was pregnant and had normalcy and then went back to the monthly cycle - whammy! I do have much to be thankful for with Jon. I have to look back and remember. We couldn't even breach certain topics before, and now we can. And I can share with him my pain of other members praying for me, and he understands. And it is nice to spend Saturdays together as a family going out and doing things together. One Sat. he worked all day on other people's computers and then went to church with me the next day. God's time, not mine. As I say, this is a spiritual warfare for me and needing God to protect me from the temptations of giving up. Especially when PMSing. Thankfully even he knows it's a problem, and when I'm sobbing "Why don't you just leave me?", he knows it's a passing event. I do have a man who loves me very much and for that I am thankful. Your son's story is also an encouragement, Colleen. I'm sure I'll need to hear it again when my kids become teenagers. :) Thanks Lydell too. That is one thing I have lost since coming to Christ more fully. Before I would go into total suicidalness and wanting to die cuz I hated how I was and sure God did too. Now I know I'm secure in His love, and I can accept this "imperfection" and know it's ok. Thanks to be for His glorious love in that. Ya know it used to be "What's wrong with me? Seeing myself as not being spiriutal enough, not eating well enough, all those kinds of questions..... | ||
| Rich |
It has been several weeks since my request for prayer (see previous thread for details). I just want to repeat that request. My wife (SDA) and I (former SDA) had another very difficult night. This one ended in resignation & with many tears. Resignation that separation or divorce was inevitable. Neither wants it. But neither knows how to stop it. We are separated in body and soul anyway ñ have been for some time. My wife refuses to open her mind and heart to the corruption SDA teaching has brought into our marriage, and I cannot seem to heal from its effects on me while she is still a profession SDA. Your prayers are appreciated Rich | ||
| Doug222 |
Rich, My prayers are with you. May I also suggest a book. It is called "Changes that Heal" By Dr. Henry Townsend. It is absolutely one of the best books I have read. He deals with the fact that in the Garden of Eden Adam and Eve had a perfect balance of grace and truth. Since the fall, that balance has always been out of kelter. We tend to be too much on one side or the other (nearly all grace or all truth). He characterizes our time on earth as "redemptive time. In other words, our time on earth is spent on God's "operating table" as he brings us back into balance. In his book he describes the process of returning to spiritual maturity. I bring this up because in the book he also talks about boundaries. He talks about our learning where our property ends and someone elses begins (and vice versa). The fall has caused us to have blurried boundary lines. We tend to invade other people's property and allow others to do the same to ours. It sounds like this could be what is happening in you and your wife's case. What she needs right now is grace from you. She needs to know that you unconditionaly accept her no matter what (SDA or not). Once she realizes that, then she can feel secure enough to begin to explore the truth of what God is trying to say to her. You and God have the same goals, but you may need to step out of the way in order for Him to work. I'll give you an example that just came to me this morning. I don't know why it did, but now I do. It was to sahre with you. I hate going to the dentist. I can't think of anything worse that I would like to do. However, it is necessary for me to go. My healthy mouth represents human life before the fall. My toothache represents life after the fall. There is definitely a problem that needs to be addressed. I have a choice, I can go to the dentist and get "treatment," or I can suffer the pain and get worse. Now, when I go to the dentist, he can begin working on my tooth if he wants to, but he is going to have a difficult time. I'm going to be tense and I'm going to fight him the whole way--I may even reach up and grab his hand. What I need first and foremost is for him to convince me that he is empathetic to my fear. Even though the drill (truth) is what I need, I first need empathy (grace). Some dentists have a very tight schedule and therefore their chairside manner is not the best. They've got 30 minutes and not a second more. That is not the type of dentist I need. I need the one who is more concerned about me than his schedule. Hopefully the analogy is clear, God offers us grace (unconditional acceptance with no strings attached). He truely accepts us just the way we are. Only when we are ready, does he bring begin the work of transformation (sanctify them thru thy truth, thy word is truth). That sanctification takes time. God has called you to love your wife in the same way that Jesus loved the church. I know this is a hard pill to swallow and may not be what you want to hear, but God is calling you to give your wife unconditional love right now. Like the rest of us, you come from a background that does not "evangelize" this way. You cannot be the impatient dentist with your patient (wife)--or she won't be your patient (wife) much longer. Learning more of God's grace every Day Doug | ||
| Rich |
Doug, Thanks for the encouragement and counsel. I've read Townsend's boundaries in Marriage (so has my wife). But the boundaries only seem to work her direction I guess (i.e. don't touch my SDAism). As I said in my message, I am struggling with the realization of what Adventism has done to me personally and to my life and marriage. This is something beyond the comprehension of anyone but those who have gone through it. I find myself to weak at this time to be able to show my wife Love in a way she can accept (i.e. full acceptance of who she is, in her Adventism). The enemy has a foothold in my home and all my prayers and all my words (to my wife) have not loosed us of his power to divide. I can do nothing now but pray. All communication has been lost between us. In Him Rich | ||
| Colleentinker |
Rich, I have an idea how dead-ended your situation feels because we have a regular member of our Friday evening group in a similar situation. When you say your wife can accept your love only if you give full acceptance of who she is in her Adventism, do you mean you must not hinder her being and practicing Adventism, or do you mean that she "requires" you to be and practice Adventism, too? If you were to allow her to be Adventist, would she agree to let you be what you feel convicted to be? A woman in my Monday night women's Bible study group told us the following story about herself and her husband. She had been actively prayng and talking to him to become more involved in spiritual things. He would go to church with her (I know, you'd welcome even that!), but he wouldn't involve himself in any Bible study or men's groups or anything other than attending church. She felt quite concerned and even frantic about it. She finally decided to give him to God, and let God convict him and direct him. She completely stopped talking to him about his spiritual life. "He hasn't become more spiritual," she told us, "but our marriage is much better than it was. It's more intimate, and we have fun together." I don't know what will work for you, Rich, but perhaps there is some way you can reach out to her in love without needing her to understand you. I know that's hard to do. I'll pray that you'll be able to love her for God even though you can't love her for yourself or even for her sake. And don't forget to praise God for what he's doing, even though you can't see what it is. Give thanks in all thingsÖ! Praying for His love, Colleen | ||
| Rich |
Colleen, OK, here it is. Based on what that I know of scripture (limited as It may be), and what I know of SDA theology (more than I wish I did). I believe traditional SDA teaching to be Cultic ñ non-Christian. My wife seems to buy into all the traditional teachings. Why should I assume that her profession of faith is real when -- I ask her straight out if the tribulation had started yesterday, would I (her husband) be saved or lost? She cannot answer the question straight out because she knows the correct SDA teaching is that anyone who does not worship on Saturday takes the mark of the beast and is lost. So what does she do? Dances around it and never really answers. So what if she is lost? I donít know, all I know is what she tells me she believes and based on my understanding of scripture you cannot believe in Sola Fida and SDA eschatology at the same time. No Sola Fida, no Sola Gratia, no salvation. How does she respond? I donít know what she really believes! Iím judging her! Iím lumping her with all those Adventist that she doesnít like either! The Adventist she hangs with arenít like that, they preach the Gospel! Sorry, I donít see it that way. Youíre in the boat or out of the boat. I hear all of what you are saying. I know my duty to her. Iíve tried for years to fulfill that duty. What am I to do, allow her to teach my children this toxic faith? Not on your life. Bless her practice of this toxic faith? I donít see that in scripture. Eph 5 commands me to love her and to seek her holiness. Ignoring her condition, or acting as if it didnít matter is doing neither. I understand that in the ultimate sense I cannot change her, only God can. But God uses His Word, Pray and People as a means to reach people. She has rejected me, as a means by which God is speaking to her because I challenge her Adventist beliefs; no one else has had the ìcourageî to address these issues with her head-on. Iím sorry; I know this does not belong in this area. But no one seems to have an answer to this (not that there is one). One last thing Colleen, is there an FAF group in the Los Angeles Area? Iíve sent several emails with this question but have not gotten a response back yet so I guess Iíll ask it ìin the clearî. Thanks again for everyoneís counsel and prayers. Signed Damage Goods Rich |
