| Author | Message | ||
| Kelly |
Rich, I'm sure you have read this but I'll post it anyway. Since I had just read it this morning it was the first thing that popped into my head when I was reading your posts. 1 Cor 7 says, "and if a (man) has a (wife) who is not a believer and (she) is willing to live with (him), (he) must not divorce (her). For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. But if the unbeliever leaves, let (her) do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace. How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife? Nevertheless, each one should retain the place in life that the Lord assigned to him and to which God has called him. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches". Scripture seems to be rather clear on the fact that if you find yourself linked with an unbeliever and that person no longer wants to be married to you then you are free to leave them. (I know this seems a little harsh to call some Adventist unbelievers but I only say this from knowing what I was an Adventist-I did not believe that what Christ did on the cross saved me if I didn't do my part of keeping the Sabbath, growing into a vegetarian, abstaining from certain meats and not wearing jewelry. To me, doing these things and thinking they "help" to complete salvation is not believing in Christ for salvation. It is certainly not accepting salvation from the viewpoint of grace!) I think there is a vast difference in believing that Christ is the Son of God and believing that Christ did it all to save me. I have come to this conclusion: If you think that you can help Christ complete your salvation it's the same thing as thinking you can get out and push a jet plane. You got on the plane because you believed that Christ was God who came to earth, but you jump back out just as the plane is taxing out because you think you will not get off the ground unless you do your part to "help". So, what happens to those who get out to help? --they are Left Behind! How does this figure into "believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved"? Are we saved if we only believe that Christ is the God-man or must that belief include that "he did it all"? If we only have to believe that he is God, he is the Messiah then Adventist are all saved. If we must believe in His sacrifice as full atonement for ALL sins and that nothing is required of us in order to be saved then many Adventist will be lost! (I suppose this should go on a different thread. Richard please move it if you find that more appropriate.) | ||
| Doug222 |
Rich, It seems that you have pretty much made up your mind on this matter, but we will continue to pray for a miracle. Please do not think that I am judging you because I have walked where you are walking (sort of). My story is slightly different, but it ended up in the same place. Take my word, divorce is not the easy answer. It is a long rough road. Don't go there if you don't have to. At the risk of beating you over the head with scripture, one other text comes to mind. After Peter had denied Christ, Jesus made a point of coming back to him and reassuring him that he (Jesus) still accepted him--kind of like what happens when we deny Jesus through following false doctrine. Peter was so happy to be welcomed back. In John 20, we read that Peter then asked Jesus, what about John? Jesus response was very powerful. He said, "if he tarries until I come, what is that to you. follow thou me." Could Jesus be saying the same thing to you? If your wife tarries in adventism for a while longer, could Jesus be saying, "what is that to you Rich? For right now, you follow me." As far as your kids are concerned, I certainly understand your concern. But, what kind of witness are you presenting if you "strong arm" your wife. Their image of God is developed in what they see in you. Think of the powerful witness when they see your unconditional acceptance of your wife, faults and all. That is not to say that you abdicate your responsibility to teach and lead them, but your actions will preach a much louder sermon than any words you can speak. As I said earlier, my prayers are with you. Surrender this seemingly impossible situation to God, and NEVER underestimate the power of the Holy Spirit. I am confident that if you do, you will be back on this board shortly with a powerful testimony. Doug | ||
| Kelly |
Rich, I think I should add this to what I wrote earlier...I would be in a similiar situation to what you are in IF I had told my husband how I felt about Adventism. I only live my "freedom in Christ" in my mind. IF, (I could, but I'm not going to) I chose to reveal how I feel about Adventism to my spouse he would divorce me and take my children from me. I can't risk that;(losing the kids)I am their only chance (at this point) of seeing the truth. Subtly I will be able to direct them toward Faith/Grace Salvation and away from the fear enshrouded legalistic salvation that we all grew up with. I don't know what the future holds-but I know I'm in God's hands. He may at some point "expose" me as a "non-Adventist" and my marriage may dissolve. I don't want that to happen because inspite of my husbands erroneous beliefs-I love him. And, I can be a Faith/Grace believer "in my soul" and still live within the walls of Adventism. My life is a mirror image of the slaves who had spiritual freedom. They did not have physical freedom but they were spiritually free. I praise God that I am spiritually free. I have been released from the bondage of the law. However, I do not have the physical freedom to express this spiritual freedom. I live in an Adventist town, my husband works in an Adventist industry, my children are in Adventist schools, my grocery store sells Adventist meats, Adventist post office, Adventist dentist, Adventist hairstylist. Everywhere I go I am surrounded by miserable people in legalistic bondage. BUT I FREE!!! And, I will remain here to make sure that my children find that freedom as well!! Reach deep within you Rich and dig out the reason that you feel the way you do. My first reaction was to run--to physically escape the apotasy that surrounded me. But the only reason that I wanted to do that was for ME! When I ceased to panic and I sought the Lord I found that this was a selfish motivation. My priority and my service for the Lord is my children and I would lose them if I were to "speak out directly" to my husband. I realize that your circumstances are different from mine--in that you are the man. But I encourage you to analyze your motivation before you destroy your family. You can still have all your freedom in Christ and live in an Adventist atmosphere. I occasionally get to leave my community and drive to a large city where I am known by no one. I have used these times to sample the things that have always been forbidden (such as shrimp and pork chops and movies). At these times I revel in my freedoms in Christ and praise Him for doing it all. But then I go back to my town and I live quietly in my freedom in an effort to not cause dissension. This works for me and I have found that in my Bible studies with my Adventist friends that I can subtly introduce the awesomeness of GRACE, GRACE, GRACE and I am beginning to see the sparkle in their eyes of "Can it really be that easy?" And, their is a visible difference in me!!! Others can see it--other people who have always seemed to have more knowledge than me about Adventist doctrines are telling me they can really see a difference in me. (I glow from the inside) And they want to know what I've been doing. And I tell them "I stopped reading Ellen White's writings and I've started reading Scripture only". They are a little startled and they say, "Really, that's all?" I'm going to start a Bible study with these friends that see my "newfound treasure" and I'm going to try to help them find their way to reading Scripture only!!! I have realized there is no harm in Sabbath keeping and there is no harm in the health message as long as you don't link these things as "must do's" for salvation. Rich, let all your motivation come from your personal love for God. If you do you will never fail. | ||
| Doug222 |
Kelly, What an amazing testimony! You are living Paul's counsel to be content in whatever state that you are in. I certainly cannot judge your circumstances--and wouldn't want to, but it sees as though you have spent your life partaking of the "tree of legalism." Suddenly, you notice the "tree of grace" nearby and realize the goodness of the fruit that it produces. Don't you feel that your circumstances cause you to only be able to admire the tree from a distance and never really partake of it? I am appalled by your statement that you could never reveal to your husband the way you truly feel because he would divorce you and take your children. Obviously you live in an "Adventist Ghetto" and perhaps that explains why your situation sounds so cultish. As I said, no one who has not walked in your shoes can possibly judge the rightness or wrongness of your decision. I certainly do not know how I would respond in such circumstances. I will also pray for you and your very difficult situation. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Sherry2 |
Rich, you stated:Iím sorry; I know this does not belong in this area. But no one seems to have an answer to this (not that there is one). I think you have been given answers by many of us, but are not listening. That text Kelly talked about is right on. How is an unbeliever drawn to Christ? By your actions, not your words. You have shared your bitterness, which is there. But you seem to hate your wife. I've had times like that myself. I am a sinful human being. If Jesus commanded us to love our enemies, then we can. But how? All have sinned and there is none righteous, no, not one. By abiding in Christ. When I was sorely down on Easter, that is what I presented to Christ....Jesus you have said "Love your enemies. But I do not have that love. I have hatred and it is sin, Lord. Please forgive me, I am wrong in this. I know through You and You alone God I can love as you have loved. What would you have me to do? What is one thing I can do show love to my spouse that would be pleasing to You?" I have no place accusing my spouse of anything when me, myself, am not living out the Gospel by the hatred in my heart. By the power of the Holy Spirit, I can obey...not by my power at all. And when I get down on my hands and knees and let God show me my sin, and confess and repent of it, and seek His will, He always shows me what I can do to serve Him. That doesn't mean I want to or have immediate feelings of love...this is not about feelings, this is about action. When I obey what He has given me to do, I find then He supplies the feelings, and the joy of obedience. Over and over again this has been true in my journey. If Christ commands it, then through Him and only Him all things are possible. Corrie Ten Boom, when placed in front of one of her captors who tortured her in the Nazi prison camp was placed in the choice of obedience without feelings too when this captor came and confessed his sin to her in genuine remores and asker her forgiveness. Her skin crawled. She didn't "WANT" to extend forgiveness and shake this mans hand. But the Holy Spirit in her (flesh wars against spirit) compelled her to forgive. Once she reached out her hand, then the tears of genuine forgiveness flooded her soul. Stephen forgave his stoners "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" before any confessed of their wrong-doing. If you hate your brother, and say you love God you are a liar. The Bible doesn't cut punches, but it also never leaves you hanging there realizing you are a liar, but instead shows you whom to go to and whom to receive the supernatural power to live out those awesome principles - Jesus Christ. You have a right to grieve this and realize your wife may never change. But then you have to make a choice to leave that in God's hands, or try to play God and make her change anyways. There's only one way that's right. How easy it is I've discovered to end up hating a person 'cuz you don't like what they believe. How sick and dysfunctional that is, as well. I did that alot as an SDA, and now I'm realizing I need to guard my heart from doing it out of SDAism towards SDA's. That's like the kettle calling the frying pan black. The best way to live out this Grace Live is by modeling it, and letting Christ live through me. I fail many times. But though a righteous man falls 7 times, he gets back up again and keeps on agoing. That is the freedom I have in Christ - to fail, and know it's ok, it's not the end, I'm still secure in His love and salvation, so let's go learn again and perservere. I am praying for you and your wife, Rich. May God place a hedge around your family and your children. And I pray that He rebuke Satan, the devourer from the hearts of the family. In Jesus name. | ||
| Rich |
First to Kelly, I am humbled. I wept when I read your testimony. I pray to God that I might be as strong as you. Thank you for sharing this with me. Yes our situation is very different but I donít think that matters. God used your words to repeat what He himself assured me of many weeks ago. That His Grace is sufficient. I struggle so to live in His Grace. Not because of my SDA background but because I am used to having ìinfluenceî. To being respected. God has spoken to me through Family, friends and many of you in this forum recently. Iím still trying to understand it all and ìdigestî it. Like being force fed, Iím choking on the depth of my own sin in not trusting in God. Iíll not let go of my children. To Sherry: I do not deny that at this time my ìfeelingsî for my wife are much closer to what you describe than what God would have them be. I understand all that you and other have said. I am listening. But only in His time will I be free from the hurt and pain. Iím just now recognizing much of it. You people are tough ñ and I mean that in the good sense of the word. God is working. Not in my wifeís beliefs, but in our lives to hold us up. Family and friends are holding us up in prayer like never before. My Pastor requested our congregation to hold our marriage up in prayer and there was a great outpouring of prayer and concern for both of us. Praise God. Lastly, do forgive me for ranting from time to time. Like one with a fresh wound, there are times that my emotions have gotten the better of me (an uncharacteristic thing). Gods Blessing on you all Rich | ||
| Sherry2 |
All I can say is Praise the Lord! Thank you for the grace You are pouring out on Rich and his family. Thank you! Thank you for sharing, Rich. The spirit is very different today, and I praise God for that. God bless you indeed, and like the prayer of Jabez, expand your territory, may His hand be with you, and keep you from evil that you may not cause pain! In Christ, Sherry | ||
| Rich |
One more request. I am considering applying for a job in my company that would take me and my family to Japan for two years. In the middle of my crisis between me and my wife, I've found it difficult to focus on the issue related to such a big decision. Your prayer for the Lord's guidence would be appreciated. Rich | ||
| Nelda_church |
Dear Rich, Please CHOOSE to LOVE your wife as Christ loved the church. The number one thing that a father can do for his children is LOVE their mother. Please do not destroy your family. YOU are the one who is supposed to be the "Christian". All the theology in the world can be harped on through the ages and it still comes down to "LOVE HIM-LOVE THEM. Sincerely, Nelda | ||
| Violet |
Nelda, I recently went through a class to be certified as a lay family life specialist. We had to read 10 books, some text book size, one of the writings that jumped out at me, and I wish I could remember which book it was in, was: (Paraphrased) When your feelings of love have gone away then it is your duty to love anyway. You must think how you would treat someone you love and treat them that way. When you do this consistantly, and it takes time, you will start to see results and the feelings will come back. This is so true, somewhere sometime you loved the person you married. But sometimes we do or say things to each other that builds up barriers between us. Someone has to break the barrier. In this case Rich it is you. You need to reach out and treat your wife with love, do the little things that you would do if you were first married to her. Start bridging the gap. Yes, it will take time, and you will be weary, but keep going. Romance her, not with just dinner and flowers, but while she's cooking dinner go up behind her, touch her waist and wisper in her ear that she is pretty. While she is folding laundry, help her, fold with her and put it away. Get up in the morning and make her a drink and take it to her. (My husband makes my coffee every morning I love it and I make his dinner every night. do you see where I am going with this? It is the small touches and actions all through the day that at the end of the day add up to love. If you need more suggestions let me know. Vi | ||
| Colleentinker |
Kelly, thank you for your amazing testimony. You do glow with the love of Jesus! | ||
| Chuckiej |
Hi Everyone! I've been gone for a long time, I was buckling down, finishing out my law school classes. By God's grace I graduated with my best grades since starting three years ago! Now I'm jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire. The Bar Exam is at the end of next month, and it is NO JOKE. I'm studying and praying, but I would appreciate the prayers of everyone here. Thank you all very much. Chuck | ||
| Sherry2 |
will do, Chuck...good to hear from you.. :) | ||
| Kim |
Hello everyone, I don't have a church family at the present time and I only know 1 or 2 christians. I could really use some prayer. I'm very concerned about my health. I have a doctors appointment coming up this week and I'm very worried about it. I'm really afraid that it could be serious. I know you guys don't really know me, but I sure could use the christian support and prayer. Thanks, Kim | ||
| Dennisrainwater |
Hi Kim, I will be happy to pray for you!! Both for your physical healing, and that God will make His presence known to you during this frightening time! Just because we can see each other through this forum doesn't mean we aren't family! Your Brother, Dennis<>< | ||
| Sammi |
Dear Kim, My husband and I will also pray for you, for God's healing and most of all His peace. Please let us know how things turn out. Dennis is right, although we have never met and cannot see one another, we are God's children, His family, and therefore your "church" family - Kim, He is with you, and will never ever leave you or forsake you. Love and prayers, Sammi P.S. We will also pray for a local church family for you. | ||
| Sammi |
Hi again everyone - I'd like to again ask for your prayers for myself - I continue to struggle with making a decision. I have listened to some seminar tapes of Dale Ratzlaf "What Ever Happened to the Law" which were excellent and eye-opening. So many ideas that I'd never considered. I strongly agreed with one of the seminar participants who commented that it seems like SDAs twist and turn and go through hoops to explain their beliefs, when the Bible is so incredibly clear, just read the Word and believe what it says. Everything seems so simple and clear to me, why is this decision so difficult? I am in a situation where leaving Adventism will greatly affect my work and closest relationships. Part of me is so eager to leave Adventism, so eager that I worry I'm jumping ahead of God, I'm trying to wait on very clear guidance from him, but there's this urgency to leave because I know it will make my life easier, then I question if I just want an easy way, do I make any sense? I know of others who've left who were accused of just wanting to take an easier way. My husband encourages me to take my time, and I read all the testimonies where many take up to two years to "transition." But because of my children, I worry about "wasting" any more time in Adventism. Anyway, I'm rambling, I just ask for continued prayer, I have such admiration and respect for so many of you, your faith seems so strong: Colleen, Sherry, Grace Ambassador, Nate/Greg, etc. I continue to pray for all of you - I especially relate to and feel for those who are in the transitioning I'm in - Doug, Madelle, Tripp, Greg, etc. Do you guys ever feel like you're leading a double life right now? It seems surreal at times for me, I believe one way, but in my daily interaction with others I'm pretending to be "one of them." I will hear comments about EGW that I disagree with, comments about the "TRUTH" that "we have," comments that once my "non-SDA" husband studies EGW everything will become clear to him, etc. I just listen and nod my head and feel so two-faced, but right now I'm not in a position to do more. Because of my circumstances I am waiting to make my decision and leave quickly. Again, please keep me on your prayers lists! And again, Kim, please let us know how your situation turns out. Thanks so much. Love, Sammi | ||
| Trippllb |
Sammi, I can understand what your feeling right now. I have told my dad that I have fundamental problems with EGW, and he has told me that he struggled with EGW when he first became an SDA too. He's teaches bible, and he does a great job shooting down any arguments I throw to him about EGW. I feel like his answers are so wrong, but I don't have the knowledge to argue the point. But I know what I feel in my heart. I know without a shadow of a doubt that EGW was a false prophet. When I asked God to show me truth, he has led me on a path that leads AWAY from Adventism, not back toward it. Right now I am still an infant struggling to understand, but with Gods help, I'll grow. But it's hard sometimes when I'm talking to my mother and she quotes EGW. I cringe, but generally decide not to fight it. She is set in her ways, comfortable with her faith, and God will work within her heart if and when it's time for her to step forward. Until that time, I simply pray for them, and avoid hurting them with the specifics of my new walk in Christ. I have shared with them that for the first time I feel like I'm saved, that Christ has helped me to realize my strengths and weaknesses, and that I pray for them everyday. But honestly, it's a fine line between hurting them with the truth they aren't ready to hear yet, and letting them know that their daughter is saved. Then again, I may be rambling and this is making no sense at all. The only advise I can give you is to take your time, pray for guidance, and give up! Give up your will and ask God to guide your path toward knowledge. The best and worst prayer I ever prayed was 'Lord show me your truth.' I asked him to put people in my life, and materials in front of me that would show me truth. I asked him to take the blinders off of my eyes and show me his truth no matter what that may be. With each and every step, every new piece of literature, every new web site, every new Christian who came into my life, the truth was clear. That truth was that there was something better out there, that I didn't know God, and that he desperately wanted me to know him. Put your struggle before God, trust that what he shows you is truth, and pray for the strength to take the steps he shows you once you know. Don't rush this decision. I'm still not positive where I stand. I just know I'm standing in the arms of Jesus for the very first time. Good luck and I'll keep you in my prayers. Today I have a prayer request of my own that I would like to put out there. Almost 10 months ago, I quit smoking after 12 years. The difference this time was a higher power holding my hand every day giving me the strength to say no. For those of you who never have smoked, you'll not be able to understand the sheer power that it has over an individual. After watching me stay smoke free for 10 months and seeing his health decline daily, my husband has decided to quit. He is takinig it seriously this time but no matter how determined he is right now, once the first craving comes, the battle begins and it is not a simple fight. Tomorrow morning he is going to get out of bed for the first time in almost 20 years and not light a cigarette. He is going to have a very hard time with this, but his quitting means so much to both he and I. I would like to ask that every one of you remember him in your prayers. The first 7 days isn't called 'hell week' just because it's catchy, it really is 'hell week' until the physical addiction of the nicotine is out of your system. Thanks for your prayers, I'll try to keep you posted. Lisa | ||
| Sammi |
Thanks Lisa for your encouragement. It really helps. Will definitely add your husband to our prayer list - I am also a former smoker and can relate to everything you said. God bless you! Love and Prayers, Sammi | ||
| Sherry2 |
Lisa, Congrats to you on the stop smoking. How you managed it with a smoker still in your home is amazing! I only had a short stint with smoking, but it only takes 3 to become addicted (my father is a drug prevention educator so I was raised with this stuff - both in my home before they came to Christ, and then as working for God teaching youth from there on up)...and I totally believe it must be Hell week no doubt about it. I still struggle for a day or two if I've been around my friend who smokes for a few days in a row. You know how they call it clam-baking if you inhale the second-hand smoke from joints....that's what I end up doing with her cigarette smoke...shame on me. So that's why I say, I am so amazed you did it with someone smoking in your home still. What a B$#%H! :) Go girl! All praise to God I'm sure. But I'm still amazed. And yes, I will pray for your husband. Sammi, thank you for sharing your feelings and thoughts. I will pray for you as well. Those two years of adjustment probably take place after they've left the church. It takes about 2 years to detoxify after you've left. Of course, you're actually going through that right now, which is great. Is your husband actively in a church? If not, maybe you should visit some churches together, as you gently break those ties in Adventism, and establish relationships with others? I know for me, I was involved for 3 years in a Mothers of Small Children group at a church in town. Because of that, I had a network of christian women I could lean on as I left the SDA church. Having those relationships will be very helpful. Aside from the fact that you may be utterly amazed at the spirituality of the people, and the Scriptural knowledge. Of course there are also very weak churches out there too as GA has talked about in some other posts. And that is true as well. But God will lead you. He definitely will. And if His answers aren't real clear, or you don't have peace about something, just keep learning to surrender to Him and put yourself in His hands, resting in Him. He will reveal what He wants in His timing. Keep sharing, and if there's any questions you want to ask or tak about, you can e-mail me at sherryreinbold@home.com. Blessings! Sherry |
