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Insideoutsider (Insideoutsider)
Posted on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 2:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jerry, Biblically, God gave you headship over your wife. Why don't you watch the DVD's, or at least the first one and ask the Lord to give you His discernment. If deception is employed, you would be appropriate to ask that it not be done in your home. Hope I'm not raising "other" issues here, but I have to say as a hardheaded lady, that nothing brings security like a Godly husband speaking the truth. Know that we will be praying.
Jerry (Jerry)
Posted on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 2:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Insideouter,

I thank you for your prayers.

I have been considering what you suggest. Let me tell you a few things:

I have NO DOUBT that this is a deception. Since this is about Investigative Judgement, 2300 days, 10/22/1844, "Christ's atoning ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary," and all the regular "prophecy seminar" subjects, I see the use of 9/11/2001 imagery as reprehensable fear-mongering. Also, they do not make clear who is sponsoring this.

This is not new to Adventism. I am just very upset that this needs to be in my house.

I have the materials right in front of me. It is classic historicist Adventism.

God has made it VERY clear to me in my heart that this is not His Word. It is the standard proof-texted, EGW infected bamboozle most here have experienced and lived in their lives.

I have already said that I am upset about this to my wife. She already knows that I think these beliefs are heresy. She has made it clear to me that she will insist that she be able to hold meetings here. Previously it was just "cell group" meetings, a weekly spiritual support group. Before this seminar, that was all I thought she meant.

You should know that I strongly believe that this will cause a major problem if I insist on removing this from our home. I will ask His guidance and peace.

Thank you for caring,

Jerry
Jerry (Jerry)
Posted on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 2:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oops. Sorry about the typos, Insideoutsider. I was typing furiously (in both ways)
Lydell (Lydell)
Posted on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 4:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jerry, it might help someone to come up with an answer if you told us if you thought those who are expected to be attending are people who are in regular attendance at the SDA church or if this is something your wife is doing and inviting the neighbors in.

How many does she expect to come?

My knee jerk reaction is that you need to close yourself in with God and decide what the goal is that you will be working toward here, obviously that she will eventually leave the church, but is there a closer goal, say getting her to study the Bible with you?, maybe be able to have discussions with her?, maybe it is showing her that you respect her even tho you differ with her views, or whatever is the next step on the way to the ultimate goal. It's only in keeping in mind your end goal, getting her out of the denomination, I assume, that you can really come up with a plan. Otherwise whatever you do is just going to be reaction to the annoyance and aggravation of the garbage being taught.

I'm thinking if the plan is to invite the neighbors in, there is nothing that says that you can't manage to "just happen" to bump into the neighbors soon afterwards for a bit of "friendly conversation" that would include "sorry I was absent from the gathering but I really don't agree with the views on the tape."
Thomas1 (Thomas1)
Posted on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 5:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I can think of no stronger weapon against deception than to spend the time they are viewing in a quiet place in your home, praying that the Holy Spirit will protect those viewing and lead them to see the truth. Confrontation only brings resolve to contine, but love and prayer can bring the Holy Spirit. In the ultimate, isn't it His job to bring the lost to the Light?

Jesus told us to love one another, even those who are deceiving others. That does not mean that we should cease praying that they will see the deception and find the Light. Quietly and in complete love, surround them with Jesus.

Easy fella.....God is still on the throne and in charge of all things!

<>< In His Grip
Thomas
Janet (Janet)
Posted on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 8:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jerry, I too, will be praying that God gives you wisdom in dealing with this. I would probably feel like you in this matter. I just don't want to be around that kind of "teaching"...
May God give you peace,
Janet
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 11:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jerry, I agree with Inside/outsider that God has given you the responsibility of being the head of the house. I also relate to her statement that, as a hardheaded woman, there's nothing more calming and reassuring than a godly husband speaking truth to me. I understand, however, your wife's belief that she has the right to show these videos if she wishes. Adventist women, for the most part, do not subscribe to the idea that they must submit to their husband's spiritual leadership.

I really don't know a fool-proof way to handle this. I do believe you should tell her that you do not want them shown there. The most powerful thing, however, is prayer. I do believe that amazing things can happen when we pray for God's glory to be accomplished. I also will join you and those here in praying for you to have wisdom, and also to pray that God will accomplish His will in this situation. I will pray that if it is His will, He will prevent them from being shown in your home. If God does not prevent it, however, I'll pray that He will use this situation to bring glory to himself and to use it as a means of revealing truth instead of the deception they are meant to purvey. I'll also pray that you will be able to trust this situation to God and that you will be able to face your wife calmly and with love, knowing that God is dealing with her and with the situation.

What is the projected dates of the presentation(s)?

Praising God that He is in the future and already has this situation in His control,
Colleen
Lydell (Lydell)
Posted on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 7:21 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It strikes me that it would also be good to pray for the disruption of the schedules of those who might otherwise be attending.

And that, even tho it is your wife's idea to show these videos in her own home, that He will cause her to be one who is irritated by something that is said in the videos. After all, that is how each of us got to where we are...at some point somewhere we heard an SDA say something that just hit us wrong. Suddenly that one thing that was said butted up against that one scripture we had seen and been only vaguely troubled by. We had brushed that scripture aside, or brushed aside a comment a non-SDA had made, until that one day...and then the whole SDAhouse of lies all started tumbling down. So yeah, I'm praying she is deeply annoyed by something she hears.
Jerry (Jerry)
Posted on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 8:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you so much, everyone.

I am praying hard on this.

I am getting two variations on strategies to deal with this. Both have their merits.

You requested more details:

If you look at the date and time of my first post, it was about three or four hours after I received the news.

The first session is this next Friday. Short notice, is it not? In retrospect, I can think of hints that the seminar was happening and would be in homes. I never was told when or where until just shortly before my first post. To be fair, she may have just recently been contacted to hold it in our home, but I have not pursued this with her.

Colleen, I think you are right about her probable attitude toward ìhead of the householdî doctrine.

So, lets look at the possible courses.

I have told her that I am very upset about these seminars being held in our home. However, she might assume that I am just annoyed at the invasion of privacy for an extended period. It does not make sense in light of the fact that every Friday, she has a ìcell groupî meeting with 3 to 10 people. I told her that I did not object to that, so long as I could be in another room.

If I tell her exactly what I feel in a brutally honest manner, I would say, ìI am fully aware of the subject matter in this seminar. I have studied both sides and the Bible thoroughly and am entirely convinced that these things are mostly heresy and inappropriate interpretation of badly analyzed Scripture. Despite the possible short notice you received, you had no right to agree to this without consulting me. I am convinced that, by agreeing to allow this to take place in our home, I am condoning a terrible, harmful heresy. It would be as if I agreed to allow a group of pornographers to meet once each week in our home and distribute disgustingly filthy literature to people they are recruiting. I must insist that this be the last time you do this.î

Now this would likely trigger a strong reaction; possibly a terrible argument; even a defiant ultimatum. In the past, she has made it clear that she will never stop offering our home for church functions.

Right now, I am not convinced that I have the approach needed to address this. So I will pray for guidance. Lydell, if God decides to go that way, I would be happy. Maybe He has a better idea. Who knows?

I am praying for peace and truth to be given to all, including me. It will take a lot of help to rid me of the hurt and anger over this, but I will depend on Him to provide what I need.

Bless you all,

Jerry
Thomas1 (Thomas1)
Posted on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 11:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jerry,

Possibly you could tell your wife that while they are meeting, both for the (Adventist?) cell group and the seminar programs, you will be praying for them. Praying that the Holy Spirit will show them the truth and that the truth will set them free. Imagine the thoughts an Adventist would have, knowing that an "outsider" or a "backslider" is praying for the Holy Spirit to reveal the TRUTH to them? Yet, done in love, how can they take offence at your action?

In His Grip<><
Thomas
Jerry (Jerry)
Posted on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 12:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thomas,

Hmm. I certainly have already planned to pray for just that. So . . .

Do I announce it to her? That is what you are suggesting.

(By the way: Yes, the cell group is Adventist. I am ìnever been SDAî and she is ìSDA from birthî)

It is worth considering over the next few days. I just wonder if it is a little condescending. I will illustrate this by inserting subtext into a proposed announcement:

ìDarling, while your group is meeting, I will be praying for everyone. (Since I made a special deal with God to make you believe what I want and you are such gullible morons.) I will pray that the Holy Spirit will reveal Godís truth to all of you. (Because you are all ignorant buffoons who do not know the first thing about Bible study or the Gospel.)î

Of course, I was exaggerating the subtexts. That may not be how she takes it, but I need to consider this carefully.

I am not saying it is a bad idea. I just need to think and pray about this.

Thanks,


Jerry
Thomas1 (Thomas1)
Posted on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 1:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Isn't it clear already that you do not agree with the studies? I believe you said that you had agreed to them as long as you could be in another part of the house. The "confrontation" has already happened.

My thought was that you tell her that while they are studying, you would be praying that their studies would lead to Jesus and that His Holy Spirit would lead them to the truth. Do it not as a confrontation but in complete love.

I have been confronted many times, since leaving the Adventist movement, about "how I could turn my back on.....the Sabbath, EGW, the health message...you fill in the blank. One thing I have never been asked about by ANY SDA, Pastor or layman, is Jesus. The word has never come up in ANY of the conversations. As a follower of Him, I believe it is most appropriate to tell any person who claims to study the Bible that you pray their study will be lead by the Holy Spirit, to a fuller relationship and trust in Jesus. In all my years as an Adventist, this is the one study that never happened.

Yes, they may consider it condecending, but it is our job. To lead all persons to believe in and trust in Jesus.

To confront an Adventist about their belief or to assert our "position" as head of the house is only to prove the EG warnings of persecution for Sabbath keepers. To tell someone that "Jesus loves you and I love you and as you study, I will be praying that your study will be lead by the Holy Spirit and will lead you to a closer relationship with Jesus", is a very "christian" thing to do.

They follow through and really do what you have promised you will do. I face a similar problem with my wife. She will read SDA material and take on a "persectuion" mode of thinking. It is hard to handle. Then is when I pray harder and try to love more.

In His Grip

<>< Thomas
Jerry (Jerry)
Posted on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 1:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Thomas,

I really appreciate your point of view. Please know that I see that what you say makes perfect sense. I need to make sure I can do it the way you suggest.

Praying for His guidance,


Jerry
Insideoutsider (Insideoutsider)
Posted on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 3:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Jerry, Reading through the posts, I believe at this time, Thomas may have the best approach. I would tell her though, that when religious ideas are taught in your home that can not be supported biblically, you are very uncomfortable and will need to absent the house that evening until it is over. Tell her that you love her and want more than anything else that she understand that and understands how precious she is to the Lord Jesus. Then leave, maybe praying with a Godly friend (male!) and coming home at an appropriate time, in other words,not late.
The last time I received a "heresy" tape in the mail from a relative, I wrote her back saying that I was uncomfortable with material that could not be supported biblically. I immediately got a reply(this was an elderly aunt) acknowledging my request, and there was a tone of respect in her note. Truth is great!
I believe submission comes, as a woman begins to realize who Jesus is, and what He has done for her. Until one becomes a Christ-follower, submitting is a biblical principle that is mostly ignored. Thomas is right, the lady needs unconditional, Jesus filled love right now, and guess what, you can't do it without Him! We will be praying.
Jerry (Jerry)
Posted on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 3:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks, Insideoutsider,

Oh, how well I know that I cannot do it myself! I agree with almost everything you said. This thing will not drive me out of my house. I will be away from the ìaction,î praying and talking to people who can support me. I might leave the house, sometimes. However, these meetings will not be the cause.

As far as unconditional love is concerned, I will do my best to provide all I can. This, of course, will count less than a grain of sand in the Sahara compared to the love Jesus has for us.

These are all good thoughts, everyone.

Thank you,

Jerry
Loneviking (Loneviking)
Posted on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 12:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jerry, do you have a church you belong too? Hmm, maybe the time is right for a little reciprocation in kind. Maybe there is a need for a 'small group' from your church to meet someplace. I agree that you are in a tough spot, and maybe a little time/patience and love will turn things around.

I too am more than a little amazed at how deceptive Adventism is getting to be. It seems there are more and more churches popping up that are 'SDA' in disguise...they don't have SDA in the name. There's a new one in Loma Linda called 'Worship Company' that's doing this. Then there are the new 'study guides', rewritten EGW books, artwork like that mentioned in another thread attibuting EGW to seeing the 9-11 attack...where does it end? They are getting to be more like the Mormons and JW's every year!

Bill S.
Jerry (Jerry)
Posted on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 1:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

hank you, Bill.

I am still in the process of finding a church. I still attend the first one, but will soon be changing. Therefore, unfortunately, I do not have the option you suggest.

This just gets more ìinterestingî every day. It turns out that this Friday and Saturday, my wife will be out of town, while I will be home for the first of the meetings. Her sister is visiting and they are going to go to another city to visit another sister. Both sisters are just as Adventist as my wife. Now another church member will be leading the seminar in my house. She is a very nice lady who lives near us. She came over to try out the equipment we have to play the DVD yesterday. Of course, she dropped a few comments about ìhow amazing dreams areî and referred to the pre-assassination dream of Lincoln. Have you ever read the description of the dream? It is not at all specific about where and how he was killed, but it does mention an assassin.

It just made me think. I imagine that almost everyone who lives long enough eventually has a dream about his or her own death. I suspect that people under stress might be more likely to have such a dream. I believe Lincoln was under some stress. I think there were probably constant threats against his life in those days.

How could he NOT have a dream about his death? How is this ìamazing?î Interesting? Yes. Amazing? No.

I do not know what is the best course here. I thought of asking if anyone on this board lives near me, and seeing if they would like to ìattend.î However, that is probably a useless idea, even if someone is near me. What would be the point? I do not need to make this into a confrontation. I just need to ask Jesus to guide her into His arms.

Anyway, I will be in a good mood as this goes along.

Amazed in His Grace,


Jerry
Jerry (Jerry)
Posted on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 1:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Aargh!! How did I miss the ìTî when I selected the post to copy?

I have no idea what it means to ìHankî someone. So,

Think, erm . . . Thang . . . I mean, Thank you Bill.
Loneviking (Loneviking)
Posted on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 4:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Snicker, snicker, hee, hee!! I thought maybe you wanted to 'hang' me! :)

You sure do have a tough dilemna! Maybe just being a gracious host, nodding and allowing the meeting to go on is the best course. As the old saying goes you attract more bees with honey than vinegar.........

BillS.
Lydell (Lydell)
Posted on Friday, September 13, 2002 - 6:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hm Jerry, would you like to tell her about how the Lord spoke to me, a non-SDA who has rejected the sabbath, in a dream? My dream was pointing me toward a very specific weekend of ministry in the church, and came a year in advance. It pointed me to the healing from some emotional baggage I was carrying.

Or, you could tell her about the vision my friend was given a while after we left the SDA church and then began attending our church.

In this vision we were walking thru the woods carrying stacks of boxes and then we met Jesus on the path. He told us to set down the boxes and follow Him. We protested that we couldn't do that, because we had all our stuff in the boxes. He smiled and told us to just put down the boxes and follow Him. We could come back for them later if we wanted, He said. You know, she didn't have a clue what that meant. But I felt like I sure did. It was a couple years later that I suddenly woke one morning with the first thought in my mind being, "it's time to go look in the boxes today." And then the next immediate thought was remembering a page that I had seen on a website that was obviously anti-sabbathkeeping. So I got out of bed and went to the computer to find that site. It was actually a whole book I discovered. I didn't went to read all that stuff, so I just chose a chapter "at random" and began to read, and almost immediately the truth that leaped out at me was "Jesus IS the sabbath rest."

You know, you could have a lot of fun with this! Oh, I know it could be too confrontational maybe. But it's fun to think about, you know.

Well, you can always graciously greet them at the door, wearing a T-shirt with a clear message on it of something like: salvation being assured, that real peace is found in Jesus, of having no fear of the future when you trust in Jesus, etc. etc. Or, maybe you could be trying to memorize a verse on assurance of salvation and just happen to have it posted on the mirror in the bathroom that day.

Praying for you. Praying to that someone there will ask a very tough and very troubling question of the lady who is leading.

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