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Lydell (Lydell)
Posted on Friday, September 13, 2002 - 6:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You know, as I was walking away from the computer just now a thought came to me. Do you suppose that there is a chance that your wife has arranged this visit with her sister for just now on purpose just so that she CAN be away? It just struck me that perhaps she is feeling not so rock solid sure of her ability to answer some of the objections to adventism that you have been raising. And so she has called in a bigger gun to handle you fearing that you will show up and speak out.

I'm sure she has voiced her thoughts and feelings to you. However, it just strikes me that the typical female thing for a woman to do in this situation, IF she were VERY sure of her beliefs would be to be at this meeting come heck or high water to make a statment in the hubbies face. Or to make a statement to her buddies, "he's messed up in his thinking but I KNOW stuff and this is my house too." Maybe it's just stubborn little ol' me. Maybe the rest of you women should give him some feedback on this thought.
Jerry (Jerry)
Posted on Friday, September 13, 2002 - 11:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you, Lydell. (As I said to Bill, ìhank youî, or was it ìTank youî ìThan youî ìThak youî . . . Oh, I give up.)

Well, tonight is the first night.

If I were to post a citation ìon the bathroom mirror,î it would be this one:

Hebrews 9:22-26

[22] Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
[23] Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
[24] For Christ has entered, not into a sanctuary made with hands, a copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
[25] Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the Holy Place yearly with blood not his own;
[26] for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the age to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
[27] And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment,
[28] so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.


Strangely, I had the same thought as you did about her not being present. There is something that would be against that.

The visit of the one sister and their travel to the other was mentioned long before the meeting showed up.

You probably know that now, the dispute of their doctrines is usually countered by throwing the ìrelationshipî issue back at the objector. That way they do not need to address the specifics of the doctrine. It goes something like this:

ìI donít know why you are so worked up about these doctrines. That is not the issue. The real issue is your relationship with Christ. Why are you so angry with God? I donít have to justify my position to you. You need to concentrate on building your relationship with Jesus. Why do you criticize Ellen White? Instead of thinking up ways to find fault, why donít you just read her books? Why donít you just think of her as a kindly Christian lady who loved to help people? These things are not required in our church anyway. The ìold menî at the General Conference do not dictate my beliefs. This has nothing to do with me. It is your problem.î Arms fold, eyes glaze over, mouth sets into a stubborn, defiant half-smile.


What fun! I will report later tonight.

Bathing in His light,


Jerry
Lydell (Lydell)
Posted on Friday, September 13, 2002 - 12:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jerry,without a sense of humor you will be buzzard meat.

I know it is a little tougher when the individual lives in the house with you, has to be! It just strikes me more all the time that the way to deal with SDA's is to come at them from a different angle than their standard party line. You know, bringing up the scriptures that they never look at, refusing to talk about egw, or their doctrines, and instead talking about that relationship with Jesus.

Yep, that's an excellent passage.
Off to batten down the hatches for a tropical storm.
Loneviking (Loneviking)
Posted on Friday, September 13, 2002 - 3:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lydell,
Was that a 'tropical' or 'topical' storm?? :)

Bill S.
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Friday, September 13, 2002 - 5:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jerry, I'm praying for you. I agree with Lydellóit strikes me that your wife wouldn't think of leaving if her heart were really into this seminar. There's something about the situation, I suspect, about which she's uncomfortable.

I'm looking forward to hearing how it went.
Colleen
Carol_2 (Carol_2)
Posted on Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 5:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jerry - don't keep us hanging!!!! You've been in our prayers, Carol
Lydell (Lydell)
Posted on Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 7:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Definitely "tropical", Bill. Wouldn't want to be present at the topical one. And so far the thing has moved thru. Just getting much needed rain.
Jerry (Jerry)
Posted on Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 9:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry, I just got too tired.

So here is what happened:

I am not exactly sure, but the session at my house had about four participants. I think that they were all existing members of my wife's church. However, I had gone downstairs just after the leader arrived and did not see everyone.

One of the ladies who came has a daughter who often comes downstairs during the regular weekly "cell group" meetings and sleeps on a couch. The daughter came downstairs with her mother following shortly after.

The mother eagerly informed me that I "could come up this time" because it "wasn't the cell group." The implication was that since the cell group discusses confedential issues and the seminar does not, that it would be OK for me to participate.

I said, "I am well aware of what is going on tonight. No thank you."

The mother left and the daughter then said "I don't blame you." She then promptly went to sleep, as usual.

That was about it.

Tonight, I am going to go upstairs to the kitchen to get a glass of water during the session just to see if non-members are attending. NOT TO PARTICIPATE.

I know, I am inviting a comment (I am so bad!)

My distress is still there. I did my share of praying, but I am doing fine.

I will try to be more timely tonight.

Thank you all, for your prayers,

Jerry
Loneviking (Loneviking)
Posted on Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 10:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sounds like you have an ally and potential 'convert' in the daughter!

It sounds like this group may be like a lot of SDA's that really don't see much difference betwen them and other Christians except for the day they worship on. I'm just astounded at this, but I saw it last weekend.

Last weekend I went to see a friend of mine, a current SDA pastor. His church rents to a small Foursquare church, and a lot of the Foursquare kids are in the Pathfinder club. Also, the Foursquare worship team is starting to provide music for the SDA church service.

Anyway, I was up there with some other old friends---most still in the church, and one of them made the comment 'well, why don't they just merge with us? Their worship team plays in the church, the kids are in Pathfinders--there really isn't all that much difference between the two groups except the day we worship on. If Sunday is optional, why not just change and worship on Sat. with us?'. The SDA's just don't seem to see how big of a difference there is!

Another interesting note was how the SDA church continues to fragment along theological lines. One of the folks there is a SDA minister in a town where there are two SDA churches. He has the conservative church (which is very devoted to EGW) and the other church is the liberals with a praise band and progressive theology. I asked him if this was becoming common in his conference and he said that just about every large city usually has two churches split between the liberals and conservatives. He hastened to add that the conference was O.K. with it and he was too as it gave folks a choice. I had to wonder what what will happen when the conference isn't O.K. with one side or the other?

Anyway, that's my ramblings for a Sat. morning...

Bill S.
Jerry (Jerry)
Posted on Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 2:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Your ramblings are interesting and pertinent, Bill.

Whether the daughter is or will be an ìally and convertî is possible, but not clear. The major thing I see in her is rebellion. As I understand it, her mother is a very controlling person. My wife has said that the mother might value her show horses more than she values her daughter. If that is true (it seems right, based on the motherís behavior) it is a very sad situation. It would be very inappropriate for me to pursue the matter, so I will not.

Your comments about the splits in the SDA church ring very true. My wifeís church is probably closest to the ìliberalî side of the street. Her pastor had a conversation with me in which he implied that he did not believe in the Sanctuary and Investigative Judgement doctrines. However, he worded it in a way that I cannot conclusively determine exactly what he believes. Of course, that is quite typical.

The problem with the liberality expressed in her church is that it is not at all free of the doctrines and historical errors. She says they are concentrating on their ìrelationship with Christ,î but the fact that they are holding this seminar betrays the fact that they are still holding on to the old covenant and some of the historical doctrinal errors.

This incomplete attempt at being more ìmainstreamî really brings the members into internal conflict. Although they can say that they rely on the ìBible onlyî and are ìnot tied to old doctrines,î they are, in truth, not following those beliefs.

My wife protests that she follows those things and yet she has more and more EGW material every month.

How sad.


Next meeting is in less than two hours.


Jerry
Jerry (Jerry)
Posted on Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 6:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As promised, here is the next chapter:

This time "the daughter" did not come with her mother. There were three people plus the presenter. I was not entirely sure about one man, but I think all were current members.

Before the meeting, the presenter invited me to join them. I said, "no thank you."

Yes, I went up for my water refill.

This is interesting. I would have assumed that most of the members had seen this presentation several times. I know it was done in previous years.

Pardon a rhetorical question: What is the point of presenting this obvious recruiting vehicle without agressively inviting outsiders?

So, I guess I was the "invitee."

Not working so well, I suppose.

Oh, well. So much for this weekend.

Next weekend, we will be on vacation, so no report.

Hmm. The daughter did not come because . . .?
Probably not related, but I suppose, since I declined the first invitation, the mother did not feel right about letting her stay downstairs with me in case I might "influence" her. Who knows?
Janet (Janet)
Posted on Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 7:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the update, Jerry. I will continue to pray for you and your wife, and these "meetings".
God bless,
Janet
Carol_2 (Carol_2)
Posted on Sunday, September 15, 2002 - 6:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

thanks jerry - you know i woke up thinking about this situation this morning, and again wondered if this was for your benefit (had not read your post until now.) i do not know you or your wife, or your relationship. but i do know the way i thought before leaving the church. my husband is a strong Christian, Baptist background, and we married (both second marriages) in 1995. he attended church with me quite frequently, as i belonged to probably the most "liberal" sda church in the conference, or right up there with maybe two others. he never agreed with most sda doctrine, but saw Christ/the gospel being preached at my church and was ok with attending. he never really understood or saw the level of deception/dysfunction etc., that you and we are familiar with - anyway, sorry, i ramble & have to explain every detail, that's just me! i still believed with all my heart that the Holy Spirit would convict my husband at some point of the "truth." i would even attend his church occasionally, as i was advised by sdas that if i didn't "pretend" to be open minded and go to church with him, he might stop attending with me. i woke up this morning wondering if it's possible your wife & her sister are off somewhere this weekend "praying" for you, especially in light of current world events, thinking with your wife not home you might more easily sit in on the meetings, and be convicted of the "truth." if it were me, i would have even thought my husband's frustration at the meetings being held in our home, and attitude toward it were a further sign that the Holy Spirit was trying to convict him, but Satan was fighting back hard! maybe it's too simple, and i'm way off, but i just was putting myself in your wife's place and how i would have thought/reacted just a couple years ago. anyway, sorry you are experiencing this, and will continue to pray for you and yours. love and prayers to all, carol
Jerry (Jerry)
Posted on Sunday, September 15, 2002 - 8:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Carol,

Your theory makes a lot of sense. Of course, since I am not a mind reader, I cannot confirm that my wife is thinking that way.

I have always thought that she thinks I must be "confused" and "conflicted." No doubt, she thinks I do not understand the "truth."

I have always thought that she has an idea that if she just passively exposes me to how nice and non-confrontational her church is, that I will eventually gravitate to the Adventist point of view. She has said that I "just don't understand." When she agreed to go to the church I am trying out, I had no illusion that she might change her mind just by attending. I felt that she was just doing a "cooperation strategy."

Not looking through a veil,

Jerry
Carol_2 (Carol_2)
Posted on Thursday, September 19, 2002 - 3:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

hi all - pls keep a friend of mine (julie) in prayer. she has been battling ovarian cancer for over four years, and had surgery last nite (my age - 41) this time the chemo is not helping, and things are moving into the last stages. i just pray and ask you all to pray for her to have peace about her salvation. she's sda and still makes occasional comments about hoping she is "ready" to die, "ready" for heaven (don't you all just hate that verbiage now - "ready?") thank you all so much. (p.s. i'm going out of town and may not be on line for a few days, so in case anyone comments & i don't respond that's why. love and prayers to all!) - (p.s.s. jerry, will keep you in thought & prayer as you being another weekend of "evangelistic" series!!!)
Lydell (Lydell)
Posted on Thursday, September 19, 2002 - 6:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Will be praying for Julie. And that you will be able to boldly share the truths about assurance of salvation with her.
Sabra (Sabra)
Posted on Thursday, September 19, 2002 - 3:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Carol,

Will pray for her! Get her to a church that believes in healing if she'll go. I work with a girl who had stage 3+ cervical cancer almost 4 years ago. (They didn't expect her to live very long) A very faithful prayer chain and a wonderful God saved her. She is in great health. Tumor still there as it was inoperable, but at the last check up she had healthy tissue and is in remission. Keep us updated.
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Thursday, September 19, 2002 - 4:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Carol, I'll also be praying for Julie and for you to be able to share Jesus and salvation with her.

Colleen
Janet (Janet)
Posted on Thursday, September 19, 2002 - 9:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Carol, I will be keeping Julie in prayer! I will also pray that God gives you peace and wisdom in sharing with your friend.
Janet
Speakeasy (Speakeasy)
Posted on Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 10:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This will be the first time I have put up something on Former Adventist. I have been reading your web site letters for over 2 years and they have been a great blessing so far. I have a long way to go in getting rid of my legalistic Idea's in my mind. I am not an Adventist and I have never been. But that does not mean that I can not relate to Sabbath hang up's and getting mixed up with not understanding on what Laws do we do and what ones we do not. Please pray for me that God himself will put someone in my life that will help me walk through questions that I have in the field on legalism. That would not pre-judge me. I live in Tulsa and would love to have somebody teach me the basics of something's. I have gone to my Pastor,Parents and Friends. But when you have some weird questions about the Law and why we don't follow all of them many times as you know. People think you are tying to convert them or all you want to do is argue with them. Most of my questions will come from Half Adventist and Half Jewish angle.
Thanks

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