| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Speakeasy, I completely agree with Jerry and Lydell above. God will bring believers into your life; you, by the same token, must not be afraid to meet with them and to let God nourish you through them. It's important that you pray that God guide you to the church where he wants you to grow. He is faithful to do that. And it's also important that you courageously take the step of visiting churches or community Bible study groups. Also, Speakeasy, make it a point to study the Bible every day. Ask God for the Holy Spirit's blessing on your study, and ask Him to reveal truth to you as you read. The doubts and fears are natural when you leave a cultic group. Fear is not from God; it is from Satan. The presence of Jesus brings peace to your soul. Don't expect all Christians to believe exactly as we do here; in fact, not all of us agree on nonessential details. But DO expect the Christian group you find to agree on Jesus and his death and resurrection and his finished work of salvation. I echo Lydell's questions; what kinds of churches have you visited? What are you expecting or hoping to find? I continue to pray for you. Colleen | ||
| Speakeasy (Speakeasy) |
I don't know if it's good for me to name. I went to this denomination and then that denomination. And these did not help me because they did this or that. What I will tell you. I want to find a church that teach's and believes 1 Corinthians 15;1-4 and that this is the only way for salvation. Not this way or that way. There is only one way for us to be saved and it is that Jesus died and was buried and was risen from the grave and it is the sheed blood that washes us clean of ANY and ALL Sins. Not just some of them ALL OF THEM. You know I went to a main denomination mainline church and they had an alter call and it was a massive turn out for the Lord. The pastor told the basic sinners prayer. That we must repent of your sins and believe in your heart that Jesus is the Son of God and that he is our Lord and Savior. But I heard NONE of what Paul tells us how to be saved. Nothing of the Cross and his death and his resurection and his shed blood that makes it possible for us to even be saved. Am I making to much of this? I want a church to teach the basic's of things like salvation and how to walk with the Lord and carry your amour that God has given you. But most church's think that you allready know ALL of the basic's and yes they lead you to salvation. But don't teach the basic's of anything. Most church's worry more about How to make your marraige stronger and How to raise a stronger Family. This is all well and good but were do I go as a new Christian and even an older believer when I have never heard some of the basic's ever preached? You can probably hear my frustration in my letter. Thanks for your time with me! I am so frustrated I read your Archives of letter's of how most of you have moved on and grown over the years. And how God has shown you were you need to be and so on. But I have been out of what I call a cult for almost 11 months and really I was pulling away for almost 3 years from the doctrines that I held so closely. I would have thought that God by this time would have sent someone my way by now. I get little bits and pieces from people. But like you guys know. when you go outside from a cult and start asking questions like how come we don't do this or why do we not do that. It usually makes those people think you are trying to convert them and they usually walk away. well thats it for now. Love in christ. Speakeasy | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Speakeasy, I'm not real sure I understand the problem that you had with what the pastor said. Can you explain a bit more what you were disturbed about? Internet conversations tend to be like speaking in shorthand after all! But from just what you had to say there, it did sound like maybe you were making too much of something. Can't be sure. I've been a member of several Southern Baptist congregations and I know that they believe and teach that salvation is just what you have said above. The Vineyard churches are the same, as are the Evangelical Free churches, the Christian church my husband was once a member of, many independent churches I know of, really I can think of many churches who would also agree. So I guess my question would be if you are looking for something to be said in just a specific way or done in an expected way? Without the cross, Christ's death and resurrection, there would be no basis for any prayer for salvation. But once one has heard the facts of the death and resurrection, there has to be a response: that's the repent and receive as Savior that you heard the pastor talking about. Speakeasy, "how to walk with the Lord" is absolutely involved in the "how to" of having a stronger marriage and a stronger family. After all, the "basics" are only the beginning point of the faith walk. Everything else is built on those fundamental truths. But if you only hear sermons continually going over the basics of the how-it-came to-be's of salvation, baptism, etc. you are never going to get past the kindergarten lessons and learn how to apply those basics to your daily life. Many churches do their indepth teaching on the basics in special Bible study groups and Sunday School classes. Those could be what you are seeking out, rather than just the Sunday sermons. Again, please don't give up on this conversation or think I'm picking on you. I want to understand and maybe we can help you figure out what the barrier has been for you, okay? | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Hey Speakeasy, I don't know if this will help any, maybe. This is what typically happens in our church: The pastor, as part of an invitation to ministry time, will say something encouraging those to come forward who have never accepted Jesus as their Savior. If someone comes forward for prayer for that, then the person ministering to them will do something like this: First we ask them if they can admit that they are a sinner and are hopeless to do anything about this problem in their power. Rom. 3:23 If they say yes, then we go on to explain to them that our sin keeps us from being able to be in relationship with God, who is perfectly Holy. And that the penalty for our sin is death. Rom. 6:23 We compare all this to a vast chasim standing between us and God. Then we explain that God knew that we would never be able to change our condition. Rom. 5:8 So, He sent His Son to take on Himself our sins, and that He took our sins to the cross with Him. That He took our place, dying in our place. That He was buried and rose again. John 14:6 Then we explain that this action of His has built a bridge between us and the Lord. Now it is left to us to decide to step across the bridge by confessing our sins, believing that Christ is who God says He is, and that He has died for us, and accepting what Christ has accomplished for us. If they say they are ready to do that, we lead them in prayer. John 1:12, Rom. 10:9,10 Afterwards we explain to them that they are now a new creation in Christ, born again as a child of God's family. II Cor. 5:17-18 And that's the basic thumbnail sketch of what we do. Then we give them some material to read to explain more about what has happened. Then the pastor follows it up by talking with them further later in the week and people continue to talk with them as time goes along. This is essentially the way it is in the Southern Baptist denomination as well. Others here can tell you what happens at their churches. | ||
| Gatororeo7 (Gatororeo7) |
PLease pray for my wife. She and the baby went out to Fresno yesterdayto see her family out there, and its the first time she will be surrounded by Adventism since her split from the church. She hasnt shared this news with her fam tho. Thanks, Joel | ||
| Speakeasy (Speakeasy) |
I'm sorry I left out a whole sentence. When the Pastor had the alter call. You heard him say to be saved "Repent of your sins and except Jesus as the Lord and Savior and he is the Son of God" But Paul does not say that is the way to be saved. It is 1 Corinthians 15;1-4 and Romans 10:9 these are the way Paul tells us to be saved. The Pastor said nothing about the Death and Buriel ,Ressurection and the shed Blood is the reason we can be saved. It is by the sacrfice that he made for us. Don't get me wrong. I am not saying those people are not saved. But Should I have gotten up and said But you left out all the other stuff. This is what mint to say. "Have I gotten this wrong on salvation?" Speakeasy | ||
| Speakeasy (Speakeasy) |
I am sorry to say I going to have to bow out on the forum for a few months. I am so frustrated about this stuff I need a break. To tell you the truth. I AM TIRED OF SERVING GOD ONLY OUT OF FEAR OF BEING THROWN IN THE LAKE OF FIRE and not just serving him because he loves me and I love him. Speakeasy | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
Joel, I grew up attending the SDA church in Fresno. Went to Fresno Adventist Academy, too. Yor wife and child are in my prayers. Speakeasy, I would just encourage you to keep at it. Go to one church and maybe like a full month before going to another. I say a full month because I don't think you'll get a very acurate "picture" of the church after just few breif visits. I would totally like to encourage you to try a ocal ELCA Lutheran. The Missouri Synods and the Wisconson Synods are a bit too fundamental, for me anyway. Also, another great denomination is The United Church of Christ. Do not get The United Church of Christ confused with The Church of Christ. They are vastly different. Prespertarian is good, too. I would try to urge you into a church that follows a litergy and follows the historical Christian calender. Will keep you in my prayers, too. | ||
| Janet (Janet) |
Joel, I will be praying for your wife and her family, that she will remain strong in the TRUTH, and be a wonderful witness to all. Speakeasy, I will be remembering you in prayer also. God knows your frustration and needs, and I am praying He will continue to reveal to you the answers you are searching for. There is a lot of wisdom shared on this forum, and we all care about you. God bless, Janet | ||
| Gatororeo7 (Gatororeo7) |
Susan 2, Thank you for your prayers. I myself have never been SDA and only learned about it from her and then studying on my own. Through sharing with her what I learned, she decided for herself to leave. She and I live in Gainesville, FL where we are part of an excellent nondenominational church. Thanks for your concern about us getting in a good church! =) Yesterday was the first time she had been to her old SDA church (Fresno Central SDA) since her decision. She didn;t tell me much about the experience... probably her family would overhear. She and I did have a good laugh about how she and her stepmom went shopping but had to wait for the sun to go down. Just reaks of legalism. Joel | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
Joel, Fresno Central SDA is the church I grew up in. When your wife gets home maybe her & me can e-mail one another. Did she attend Fresno Adventist Academy? | ||
| Clay (Clay) |
Speakeasy, I understand your point of being tired of serving God out of fear of the 'Lake of Fire'. Fear is never the best motivator to serve God. I have realized there are many churches (non-SDA) that focus on the fear of hellfire as a motivation for accepting Christ. I am not interested in being part of a church where that is the emphasis. Its almost like telling someone who is walking along the edge of a cliff to continually look over and see the canyon that will kill them if they fall, rather than keeping their eyes on the trail and their destination. (that may be a poor example) God's encredable, unconditional love for us is the motivation that I believe results in our desiring to know and follow our Saviour. In Adventism is was the fear of judgement that was often used as a motivator and in other churches it is fear of hellfire. I believe a clear understanding of the new covenant, which includes God's free gift of salvation, His unconditional love and acceptance, and His continual forgiveness, is the only motivation I need to desire Him and long to reflect his love to others. Speakeasy, let the Holy Spirit guide you as you study on your own. He is the perfect teacher and he will not let you be deceived. Please believe that. We must walk by faith in His leading. As far as I can understand, the only reason we are admonished to meet with other believers is to encourage one another in our faith walk with Jesus. That can be with only one or two other individuals. My wife and I have visited many churches in the last year and are still not feeling lead to any church, but we continue to study on our own and with our small house group that we meet with weekly in our home. I am not interested in being part of a church that does not understand and preach the New Covenant gospel and explain why we are no longer under the old covenant. I find that too many Sunday churches are stuck in the elementry principles of the gospel and never seem to move into the deeper teachings of the NT. I desire solid food not just milk continually. Many pastors have made their congregations "spiritual cripples" by not insisting the people bring their bibles to church and by not doing expository preaching. As Christians I believe God wants us to be students of the 'word', and if that does not happen in our private homes and if we just hear 'talks' from the pulpit, then we will become 'spiritual cripples'. Speakeasy, God has promised that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth, and I just encourage you to claim that promise. Your in my prayers. In His service, Clay | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Hey Joel, Doesn't Jenetzen Franklin have a church in Gainsville? I love to hear him preach. I don't know the name of the church but the website is kingdomconnection.org wish I could find a church like that here. I'm a little discouraged about finding a church here. Seems like the Baptists are too weird about Sunday being the Sabbath and they are a bit too reserved for me. I don't like the whole church making a lot of noise and falling out in the isles but if I want to stand up and shout AMEN, I don't want people looking at me like I'm nuts. Seems there is no happy medium. I also hate the idea of the church being some sort of country club for a 'certain' type of christians. Sigh, I'm praying for your wife and I'm sure it will all work out. How long is she going to be there? | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Speakeasy, I understand your frustration, guess we just have to consider that no man made denomination is going to have everything 100% correct. We just have to be led by the Spirit to believe the truth and learn everyday. Maybe we have the same problem of trying too hard to find a church that fits us. I think I'll just pray for both of us to be put in a church that God wants us in. Don't get discouraged, church doesn't save us, and we aren't responsible for what every christian believes and that they believe exactly as we do. I'm believing God will show us where He wants us to be. | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Sabra, remember there can be big differences in different Baptist congregations. The majority of folks I knew definitely didn't view Sunday as the sabbath. But they are too reserved for me, too. There ARE churches that have found that middle ground that you are talking about. Vineyard churches don't have the mass speaking in tongues confusion, there are folks occassionally who do fall down under the Spirit's power, but it is not from some wild out of control display of emotionalism, and the dress and style is casual. And if you feel like shouting to the Lord for joy, there is a place for that there. Calvary Chapels are very similar. I know we have several other fine nondenominational churches in our area who see things similar to the way we do. I understand that there is a Baptist church in our town that has a contemporary service far closer to our own than the typical Baptist style, too. Anyway, don't give up, God DOES have a place for you. I'm convinced that He intended for us to be planted in spiritual families. And especially for those of us who have been "out there" in religion land, we NEED them. Clay, I don't think we are in the spiritual families only to encourage one another, but also to stimulate and challenge each other to study. Sort of a spiritual sandpaper thing. AND, tho it has taken me a LONG time to admit it, I think He intended the church body to provide accountability and oversight as well. One of the functions of the body is to be there to look us in the eye and say, " you know....I really think you need to go back and study on that one somemore with the Holy Spirit's guidance, because you are missing some real important points there." The problem we, and others, have found with the small home groups is that they invariably end up becoming closed....maybe it is because of the small number of people, but it tends to settle into a rut of everyone seeing things in precisely the same way (and deciding that the rest of Christendom is screwy because they don't agree with you) and those who would disagree just sit there and don't say anything because they don't want to offend or be the only one who disagrees. And it is far too easy to hold on to slightly twisted doctrine because there aren't others around to challenge the thinking. Not putting you down here, Clay, and not saying I think you group is headed that way, cause I sure wouldn't know....this is just a warning for you as a leader to keep an eye out on your group. Anyway, for all of you who are seeking a church home, please go out with the attitude that the Lord DOES have a church home for you. If you go out with the attitude that this visit today will just be another visit and then I can go on to visiting the next and the next, you will never be open to hear when you have arrived at the right spot. The first step toward hearing from God is to believe that He is interested in answering. You are going to have to be open to swallow your pride and realize that you do NOT have all the answers. It helps to remember that it was not the folks in the church building you are entering who have been out there focusing on keeping one day a week and following a false prophetess! In that light, it makes sense to give a bit of leeway in your search for thinking outside your comfortable box. Please don't fall into the trap of going with a long list of credentials that these folks are expected to meet. As I said earlier, stick to the basics of the faith (those things that are absolutely essential) and be willing to allow that just perhaps that thing that is said or done that initially irritates you just may not be such a huge deal after all, you could just end up discovering down the road that it is only a pet peeve of yours after all. Or, now brace yourself, you could just find that there is one more thing that you are wrong about after all. Or, you could find out that you had a misconception formed from your kneejerk reaction to something and that what you thought they were saying wasn't what they were saying at all. Just thoughts to chew on folks. Now can I share something absolutely beautiful that happened today? A young woman began attending our church about 2 years ago and was saved soon afterwards. Other members of her family have followed her to the church. Today, during ministry time, the young woman's mom came forward for prayer for a fresh infilling of the Holy Spirit. As we were praying for her, I sensed some other folks standing all around us and looked up to see the ladies' daughter, the ladies' sister and her husband, and praise God! another daughter who has just newly been saved (she has been lesbian) all with tears of joy running down their faces. You know, it is an awesome experience to pray over a whole extended family! It was just a really precious thing to witness. God is so amazing. | ||
| Terryk (Terryk) |
I must be very blessed in the way of the Baptist church because it is very lively and I see people raising their hands if they want very uplifting music clapping it is wonderful to experience. I did have adjustments to make in my thinking about church and what it means etc. I think many of us have come to the same conclusion that church is not what we have experienced in the past it is not a test of salvation. Maybe thats not the right term but you all know what I mean. I would have to say I have learned more in the past few months just me and God and our studying together than in the past 27 years of being in church and at every function I could make. It is good to worship together but I needed my head cleared and I think God needed me to himself for a while to reteach me things. I do not think he wants us to jump from one wrong church maybe tinto something else that is not right. I have been very sad because I have had to go from a very social christian life to pretty much just myself and God but now I am seeing maybe this is what I needed even if I did not like it. Well we just need to help each other in our sometimes very painful journey. Thank you all for your love and prayers and lets keep praying for our friends and family to see the light. God Bless Terry | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Joel, how long will your wife be with her family? I'll be praying for her, too. Speakeasy, I understand your confusion. Amid all of this frustration, please don't neglect reading the Bible regularly with prayer for the Holy Spirit to direct you and to teach you truth. And keep visiting churches. As Lydell said, God will guide you to one where he wants you to grow. It's true, though, that we have to be willing to be open to Jesus and not to expect people to say things in precisely the way we think they need to be said. Of course, if they're not preaching/teaching Bible truth, RUN! If, however, they are stating things differently from the ways you have understood them, go back to the Bible and allow God to teach you. For example, we were put off by our pastor's repeated references to obedience when we first joined our church. We FINALLY figured out (nothing dense about us!) that he was talking about obedience to Jesus, not obedience to the law! We just couldn't hear it for a while because we were so used to thinking about obedience in terms of legal requirements. We were limited by our own early programming. Jesus will grow and teach you. Praise Him for Himself! Colleen | ||
| Gatororeo7 (Gatororeo7) |
Colleen, My wife will be out there until the 15th. She took the baby too so it's very lonely over here =(. Thank you for your prayers. Joel | ||
| Speakeasy (Speakeasy) |
Just to set a few things straight. You guys are great and have been great for the month or so since I have been on this forum. You have through this web site with this forum have taught me so many things. But for some reason. I have hardend my heart. I am so tired of worrying. Do I have to do this or do I have to do that. And should we do this and how come we do that but not this. I am tired of fighting what is almost a loosing battle. I am tired of prayers that I have so much concerns for in my life. Not being addressed. I see that God does answere prayers. But I see that sometimes and many times God's reply is NO. I don't want to put God in a box. And when I want it my way. I come to Him and say now do it my way. Nobody can do that. But You would think that when he talks to you and reveals the basic things to you from scripture. Like in Galations and so forth. He would do the same for me. I am tired of the yo yo life style that I am in with God. is being a christian after coming out of the back ground of a legalist back ground like this? If it is I don't know if I like it! Like I said I am at the point I am ready to walk away from all of this junk. Not walk away from God. For I know there is a God. But why does he put you in to serving him out of FEAR. Why would he put in the bible all this stuff about the laws and rules and regulations and then take them away. How do I know he will NOT do that again? You can read through out the bible and GOD changes. I have been told all my life that GOD does not change. Well that is a lie. He changed from telling Abraham just have faith to be saved. And then to be saved telling Israel do the Laws and Commandments to show me that you will obey me. Then he sent Jesus to save Israel. Then we Gentiles SAY that Jesus was sent to us Gentiles to save us. But then out of Jesus's own lips Jesus says he was not sent to the Gentiles. Then Jesus dies for us. And some groups say part of the Law in done away with and then some groups say all of the law is done away with. Then you are told that Only to believe that Jesus is the son of God. Then you get people that say NO NO you must confess your sins and believe that he died and rose from the grave to be saved and not just sAY he is the sone of God. Then you get people that say you must be filled with the holy spirit and speak in tounges. But Paul says you must do this to have eternal life Believe. Then you have Jesus say Believe in me and do the Commandments. Then you have Moses telling you the Law is the way to Salvation. The Question is! If all of these things are in the bible. How come I can't do all the ways that are written in the bible to be saved? All of them point to the one True God. The God of Abraham ,Isacc and Jacob. AM I wrong that the God is the same. I have been taught that there is absolutes in the bible. without faith it is impossible to please God and without the sheeding of blood there is no remmission of sin. As you can tell I am very frustrated. I have studyed and studyed the bible. How come you guys see things different things out of the same verses than I do. Am I blind Am I being lead by Satan like it says in the bible that when people read the old Testament that there eye's are being blinded by the God of this world. I just don't understand what is going on in the bible. I feel sometimes I am making great strides toward God and he is in Full controll then BAM. I have lost all confidence in my salvation. I am so fearfull to even open the bible and study it anymore. because at this time in my life. I see all the wrath and commandments and the judgement that God has for us. well I need to SHUT UP for a few weeks or so and let God talk to me. I need to be quite and let God and his Holy Spirit guide me in were I need to go. I just hope God tells me that the Law will not save me. Like he has told you guys. I could go on for hours. I have run off everybody that I can think of about the things I am concerned about. So I guess God want's me to do this on my own. Thanks for all of your prayers and time. Love Speakeasy | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Speakeasy, May you find Godís peace and rest as you listen to Him. We could all go on for days trying to help you, but you are right to seek solace and quiet. Go in peace, He is ready to answer all your questions when you are ready to hear them. Only He knows when and how that will happen. We will pray with you and for you. We hope to hear from you when you are ready. Jerry |
