| Author | Message | ||
| Steve |
Hi Heather, Praise God for you. Many of us understand the guilty feeling. We've been there (or are still there.) Our great God, in His infinite wisdom, gave us incredible minds. Don't discount what you're learning. The Holy Spirit will lead you into all truth. And of course, "test all things, hold fast to that which is true." Many of us have found Jesus to be "that which is true" as opposed to all the doctrines we have been taught. You say "I continue to search for the TRUTH, and pray God will lead me to it." Many fine men and women have done the same, and God has led them to Himself. This includes laypeople as well as many who have been pastors, teachers, doctors, and probably some higher-up in the GC administration. We hope you'll continue to spend time with us (visibly or invisibly). May God continue to bless and enrich your walk with Him. Steve | ||
| Heather |
Thank you for answering Steve. Can I ask you...if others feel "guilt" as well...how do we know where this "guilt" is coming from? The Holy Spirit? Or Satan? I am confused...can you explain this to me? Thank you... | ||
| Steve |
Hi Heather, Guilt is a very common response to something that is actually very scriptural. When we begin questioning things we are fulfilling at least 3 scriptures that I know of. I Thessalonians 5:21 "But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good." I John 4:1 "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world." Acts 17:11 "Now these [Bereans] were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so." When we start examining things, we are actually fulfilling scripture! Our own church knows this as well. On the issue of Ellen White, they have made many investigations into the issues of plagiarism, and her own eating habits as compared to what she claims to have received from God. In the final analysis, the church has had to make many modifications in it's position. Initially, leaderships position was "she didn't copy." Then, they said there were similarities. Then they said that she was shown in vision what it took many other writers to understand. Then they said that she was led to the writings of other individuals and God showed her what parts were from Him and what she should use. I know my list is not complete on the different positions our church has taken, but the church has definitely had to take many different positions as more information has become available about this. Even Dan Smith, senior pastor of the La Sierra University church in Riverside, California, in a recent sermon, admitted that she apparently used sources. He also admitted that she ate oysters and squirrel meat long after she received visions stating that we shouldn't be eating such things. You say that you feel "guilt". Yes, others feel guilt as well. But that guilt cannot be from God if God also said that we are to "examine everything carefully", "test the spirits", and search like the Bereans. Our guilt over these kinds of things arises partly because we are human, and partly because we can be influenced by forces outside ourselves that don't want us to examine, test, and search. We're glad you're following scripture on these issues. You must be a Noble person, like the Bereans. God Bless, Steve | ||
| Heather |
Steve, Yes, I believe that you are correct that we must check things out praying that God lead us to the truth as HE would have us to know it...that is why I am here and why I have not blown this site off when first having been referred to it. God wants us NOT to be fooled, this I believe. I do NOT believe that anything is a coincidence, all things have a reason for happening. I am not here by accident. As for my being "Noble"...no, I very much doubt that...all I want is the absolute truth..this is more important than any riches here on earth. Guilt, ah yes, I wondered if it was of Satan or of God as both have the same venue to our minds and use it. I realize we can be tricked into believing false doctrines if we are not careful, I pray for the truth, I trust God will show this to me. Meanwhile, I will continue to explore your vast amount of readings here, and pray. My main desire is to know the truth...it is so necessary that I know this...my desire is to do what Jesus would have me to do with my life and that of my children. These are the only things that matter in this world, to follow the truth of our Savior and to lead others in that way as well with the help and direction of the Holy Spirit. I will continue to search E.G.White...this is a more believable fallacy than the Sabbath to me...humans are subject to errors...but issues of the Bible are way more serious...I am afraid that this will be my most difficult area of all. I want the truth, I will not rest until I am thoroughly convinced of it. That I pray the Lord will do...show me the way. Thank you for responding... May I ask you about your personal journey as to how you got where you are today in your beliefs?? | ||
| Steve |
Hi Heather, I'd love to tell you about my personal journey, and how I got to where I am today. I was converted to Jesus Christ through the non-denominational High-school ministry Young Life. I then was baptized at a Baptist church in 1975. Within ONE MONTH I was approached by 5 different religious organizations. I hardly knew what a Christian was, let alone these groups. They were Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, The Way International, The Children of God, and the Hare Krishnas. After thinking I had found True Life in Jesus, I became absolutely confused, and probably was more confused that I was thinking clearly. (This is why it's important to remember that God is not the author of confusion.) After a couple of years of studying with these groups, sometimes at the same time, I eventually shook them off and remained a fairly"straight" evangelical Christian. After being a Christian for 9 years, the SDAs came along (through the woman I would eventually marry). They spun their web and I was caught (via a Revelation Seminar). 15 years later (now) I am getting my bearings again, and realizing the serious problems. Over the years I've read, among others, the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, The Pearl of Great Price (the 3 Mormon scriptures other than the Bible), portions of Joseph Smith's Inspired Version of the Bible, portions of the New World Translation of the Scriptures (the Jehovah's Witnesses "Bible"), Jesus Christ Is Not God (from Victor Paul Weirwille, founder of the Way International), many of the Mo Letters (from the Children of God, now The Family), the Baghavad Gita with commentary from the late Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, founder of the Hare Krishnas, the Koran (I even studied with some Sunni Muslims, kind of like Southern Baptist Christians in the world of Islam), the Dhammapada (Buddhist), parts of the Urantia Book (I believe an offshoot of SDA), some of the Upanishads, Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures (from Mary Baker Eddy, founder of Christian Science), and numerous other writings over the years. And of course, much Ellen White (I was really taken in by The Great Controversy, it was amazing reading for me at the time.) Coming from a non-religious home, childhood and youth, I was like a sponge, absorbing anything religious or philosophical in nature. Because of the "party-like" home I came from, the orderliness and legalism of SDAism actually appealed to me. But no more. It has squeezed the Gospel out of me. When I was studying with a Pastor to join the SDA church, he asked me if I had heard of the issues surrounding Desmond Ford. Having heard the name, I said that I had heard of him and something he was saying about the Investigative Judgment. I must admit that at the time, it was foolish of me to even think I understood the issue. What I did NOT know was that the church had revoked his ministerial license over the issue. If I had known that, I would have seen how closed-minded the church was to healthy theological debate and dialogue. Over the last 15 years I've been aware of, or have read some things from: Desmond Ford (read part of his Glacier View manuscript, and heard him speak in San Diego twice), Raymond Cottrell (heard him speak at the San Diego Forum and read some of his material on the problems inherent in SDA Bible study methods), Dale Ratzlaff (heard him speak here in Southern California recently), Walter Rea (read parts of The White Lie a few years ago, and just got a copy a couple of weeks ago), Sydney Cleveland (have had e-mail discussions with him on a few issues), Ratzlaff, Cleveland, et. al., The Spirit Behind the Church Video (a nice summary of various issues), Walter Martin's appendix in his book The Kingdom of the Cults titled The Puzzle of Seventh-day Adventism, The Shaking of Adventism by Geoffrey Paxton (read this last fall, VERY eye-opening), listened to Mark Martin's Evangelical Adventism, the Dark Side of Adventism (available on-line at his website), have subscribed to Spectrum most of the last 15 years, and subscribe to Adventist Today, which throws SOME light on some issues that the church leadership doesn't often face up to. (I've probably read some other things, but they get lost in the sheer volume of it all.) Having read so much, you might think that I must be VERY aware of the issues involved. But I'm not. I was incredibly blind. I was like the Israelites reading Moses, as though wearing a veil. My eyes have begun to open and I am beginning to see. But I'm afraid my vision is like that of a newborn baby. I can't always focus well. Perhaps the one thing that I recognize right now is my Father's face. But seeing His face amidst all of this is quite comforting. He is allowing me to see some things that I have never seen before. Some of the thoughts I've had in the last year include the following: Regarding the Investigative Judgment: Those who believe in Jesus have passed from Judgment to life John 3:16-21 Regarding Ellen White: We need NO further light. According to Jude 3, the faith was ONCE AND FOR ALL delivered to the saints. It wasn't partly delivered to the saints. Regarding Michael the Archangel: Why would Michael say "The Lord rebuke thee" in Jude 9, while Jesus commanded the demons directly in the gospels? Regarding the Scapegoat: Satan in NO WAY participates in the atonement. It is Jesus, and Him alone. Regarding the Great Disappointment: To state that God was responsible for erroneous teaching by placing His hand in front of some information is abominable. It is next to blasphemy. Should we say that whenever error in theology or sin occurs that God was keeping us from seeing all we need to see? Regarding 1844: Even Dan Smith, senior Pastor here at the La Sierra University church in a recent sermon admits that the date may be incorrect, but then goes on to say that's not the important point (My question: If the date is not the important point, what IS the important point about the date 1844?!) Regarding the Sabbath: When we have entered into Jesus, we have entered into that Sabbath rest. Hebrews 3:7 THROUGH 4:13 (read the whole passage in context, paying special attention to the word "rest" and how it is used.) Regarding Perfection: When I was saved, Jesus stood in my place before the Father and declared me righteous. I was completely and fully justified in God's sight. No matter what I do or don't do in this life, my salvation is secure in Jesus Christ. My salvation no longer depends on me, it depends COMPLETELY on Him. Period. In regard to the Clear Word Bible: Even the church is embarrased by this. However, it continues to be published without the word "Bible" associated with it. However, if you look at it, it still says, "Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, . . . Jude, Revelation." It is someone's commentary on the Bible, not a translation, or even a paraphrase, of the Bible. I'm sure there are other things. And as you can see, I can probably go on for ever with my testimony. (In heaven, I will go on forever with my testimony!) But I rest assured. I now need to keep looking to Jesus. For if any of our teaching compromises Him, or what He has done for us, then it needs to be discarded. And that is what I am now in the process of doing . . . big time. Heather, I don't know if I've addressed any of the issues you are searching for. I do know that it can be an extremely scarry and uncomfortable process to go through. But go through it we must. For I'd hate to stand before the Father saying that I lived up to the light that I knew of when I know He will reply, "What about My Son?" Especially when there have been so many bright lights (or SDA "Martin Luthers" as I like to refer to them) in this day and age. There are many very wonderful and loving Christians that I've been getting to know as I leave SDAism (I'm still SDA, but am committed to leaving sometime this year). Whether you leave the church, don't leave the church, or whatever, be assured that we all just want you to know Christ and Him crucified. May God bless you as you continue to search these pages. Steve | ||
| Heather |
Steve, Thank you for your honest testimony. I just finished a very lengthy answer to your testimony and lost the whole thing due to computer problems. I will not retype it all just now, but would like to ask a couple more questions and later I will comment in answer to your testimony. How does your wife feel in regards to your leaving the SDA church since she was the one who led you to it? Is she also in agreeance with this decision? What was the deciding factor in you leaving the church, and how does all of this make you feel? I do want to say that I believe that this is a personnal quest and I want only what God will impart to me as His truth...I do not want to be a reed in the wind believing just anything and everything, but it is important for me to hear what others have to say about the SDA's. I see that this is a process of discovery and learning and I need to take this very slowly...please pray that the Lord give to me what is HIS truth only... I will respond deeper later...thanks again... | ||
| Steve |
Hi Heather, You ask: "How does your wife feel in regards to your leaving the SDA church since she was the one who led you to it? Is she also in agreeance with this decision?" My wife was not happy when I began discussing these things with her. She was downright angry. When I explained to her that I was simply using the same criteria (scripture) in looking at our own church as I had in looking at those other churches, her response was, "But don't do that with MY church." No, she is still not in agreement with this decision. But I think she may at least allow me my freedom in this matter. (Part of this is cultural, and without knowing the culture she comes from, it may be hard to understand. But for her, and many from where she's from, there is "one true church" and only one church that teaches the truth. She doesn't see other Christian churches as being "Christian" but as being "other than Christian".) When she stated that I shouldn't "investigate HER church" the way I investigated other churches, I realized that she had always felt that she had led me to the "truth". Of course, I realize what a crushing blow that must be. But in my mind, that's taking the place of the Holy Spirit. Perhaps the most difficult issue I had to struggle with was her initial determination to leave me and take the kids if I left the SDA church. That's (probably) not an option for her anymore (I think she saw how awful that would have been, for both of us.) You also ask: "What was the deciding factor in you leaving the church, . . ." The deciding factor must be that I feel the church teaches serious false doctrine. Doctrine that compromises the Good News of Salvation in Jesus Christ. It wasn't any single doctrine (although the Investigative Judgment stands out) but the overwhelming number of problematic doctrines that made me realize that I was dealing with something more that just one or two problems. It's the entire theology that has come apart. You continue: ". . . and how does all of this make you feel?" It makes me feel absolutely awful. Like you, I also want to follow the Truth, not someone's idea of the Truth. When I came to SDAism, I felt that I was continuing further into the Truth of the Gospel. And that's what makes me feel so awful. When I realized that I not only didn't go further into the Gospel, but AWAY from it (and Him), I felt like the whole structure of my life and beliefs were falling apart. For a long time I didn't know what to do. But when I found others who had struggled with the same things, it was like a ray of hope in an otherwise dark period of my life. Also, the realization that SDA theology is VERY MUCH like Roman Catholic theology made me feel absolutely awful as well. (Look under the Discussion section of this website to see some dialogue on this topic, and others.) All in all, I now feel that this decision to leave the church is one of the best decisions of my life. Many times I have felt that I might be leaving Christ's church. But no church organization can hold that place. It was foolish of me to think so. I now agree with many great Christians through the millennia, that Christ's Church is the Church Invisible, that great Body of Christ of Whom we're all a part if we belong to Him. Looking forward to more from you. God Bless, Steve | ||
| Lori |
Hi, Heather, I understand the burden of guilt that you are carrying!!!! I have felt it, too. I had already discounted EGW a decade ago, but I still believed that the Adventist beliefs were scripturally sound. And, I still believed in the Sabbath as the seal of God! Last September I was going to a neighborhood Bible Study, ladies from all denominations were there. We were studying the book of Ephesians. At some point in the study a reference was made to a scripture in Revelation pertaining to Michael and the archangels. They were saying that this was a futuristic event (Adventist teach that this has already taken place and that Michael is Christ) and I had nothing to back up my belief. ......so began, an intense search for BIBLICAL proof!!! (I was looking for 'ammunition' to fire upon these people and amaze them with my Adventist background! Little did I know that everything I believed in was going to be shot down in the next couple of months) It didn't take but a couple of days for me to realize that I couldn't find any Biblical proof, all I could find was EGW quotes. So, I made a few phone calls to Adventist friends and they could only quote EGW.......I was confused, I couldn't understand WHY I couldn't find Biblical proof for what I believed. I wanted desperately to know the truth!!! After I would put the kids to bed at 9, I would stay up until 1 or 2 am searching the Scriptures. (But amazingly, I had the stamina to still get up at 6 am and repeated this same routine for over a month. I can't do it now.) The more I studied the more discrepancies I found..........I was in shock!!! What I was finding--on my own--was destroying the entire foundation of everything that I was raised to believe as an Adventist. I was an emotional wreck for weeks.......I was engaged in a war---that was inside my mind!!! I was devastated!! (It was very similiar to the grief a losing a loved one.) I had prayed every day that God would protect and keep me from anyone that would misdirect me. I had called so many people (Adventist) concerning these issues; that I was sure that I was going to be hearing from dozens of them. But I didn't hear from any of them, not one!!! They either called when I was away and left messages, all of them said the same thing, "I just wanted to know how you were doing and if you had found the answer that you were looking for." The others that I heard from weeks later, told me that every time they called my phone was busy. I know God gave me the time I needed, to find the Truth without manipulation. At one point in my desperation I got on the computer, I thought surely that an Adventist website could give me the answer. The website that I found was Mark Martin's.......it confirmed for me everything that I found. At this point I realized I had to make decision, I couldn't keep riding the fence, it was tearing me apart, it was not good for my children, and my husband didn't know what to do with me (he's a non-denominationalist). My husband was the final catalyst for my decision, he told me the best thing he ever could have!!! ----I had told him, I didn't know how to be anything but an Adventist, ....I didn't know how to stop being one, .....even though I could see the serious errors in the doctrines, ....that was all I knew how to be .....and this is what he told me. "then just be an Adventist" He could have said so many things!! ...like, "I've been trying to tell you this for 10 years"...... ,but he gave me permission to be who I needed to be!!! The end of the story is....when I made my decision to leave Adventist church, I found that inner peace, that inner happiness that circumstances can't remove from you!!! I found Biblical Truth.....God's Truth!!!!! And it has set me free!!! I understand the turmoil that you are in right now. Keep searching, Heather! About the guilt. I don't believe guilt comes from God. Conviction comes from God. And conviction differs from guilt--the conviction that comes from the Holy Spirit shows us something and 'in' that something we are able to see that if we decide to do that it will bring us closer to God. Guilt on the other hand, is just a manipulated emotion. A tool of Satan. God is gentleman!! He never forces himself upon us! We make a conscious decision to be positive or negative to the truth and God is a gentleman, he does not manipulate, he does not beg, he does not make us feel guilty. I know it's a very difficult thing to go through.......but if you will just persevere in your search......God will lead you to truth!! I'll be praying for you, Lori | ||
| Steve |
Praise God for your testimony Lori. It gives me hope. Hope that my wife may be able to see what I'm going through, and why. I hope your testimony helps Heather, AND many others that are looking here. God Bless, Steve | ||
| Heather |
Steve, Lori, Thank you...I am left speechless...I want to respond, but find that I simply cannot at this moment. All I can say is thank you so much...and Lori...what you have shared is way more than I can take in...WOW is all I can say...let all this sink in and I will respond when I can actually "think" straight...right now I am left feeling rather paralyzed... Steve, I understand where your wife is coming from 100%...I too have been there and feel exremely guilty for being "here"!!! It is no light matter when one is asked to give-up all they ever believed in as truth!!! I want to say more...I just cannot... Again...thank you....please keep praying for me. | ||
| Steve |
I will keep praying for you Heather. As long as you find Jesus in all of this, you will have found The Truth. For Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life." When you come to Jesus, regardless of where else this journey takes you, you will have found Ultimate Truth, a Full Life, and the Only Way. | ||
| Colleentinker |
Lori, thank you for your story. And thank you for pointing out that the Holy Spirit brings conviction, not paralyzing guilt. I read a book a few years ago in which the author said the Holy Spirit leads us; Satan makes us feel "pushed". You're right; God does not manipulate us. Truth does not cause confusion. Confusion is a mark of evil or error. Your guilt and depression, Heather, are normal. You're experiencing the stages of grief that people experience when any major part of their life is threatened. Remember that God is a God of internal peace and congruence. Satan will keep you in turmoil. But the shock and disbelief you feel are normal and will pass. God will ground you in his love and truth. Don't be afraid to experience your grief and depression and anger and let God lead you through it. He will bring you into "that place just right; the valley of love and delight," to quote the old Shaker hymn, "Simple Gifts". But you have to walk through the shadows on your way to the light! You will not walk alone. Jesus is with you. And the prayers of us who are walking a parallel path will go with you. Colleen | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Everyone, I want to thank each and every one of you for your prayers. I've been blessed in so many ways, right down to my friend, Sharon that brought me to FAFland and has a lap top computer for me to play with! Such a little thing for God to give me, huh! The cancer was still in one localized area. For you that don't know what happened, I burned my tongue 5 years ago and it never healed right. That developed into something over the years and my Dr. mis-diagnosed it and it would have spread had I not know that it was wrong (God's whisper) and got "our" Bruce to find me a Dr. here! They still had to carve a hunk out of it plus fillet the side of it off, then put a graft on it from somewhere else. There was no earthly reason for this to have not spread all down the neck! God IS watching out for me. The Dr. is so amazed at how everything went so well. Infact, the pain is much less that I would have figured. I am so frustrated as I wont be able to talk for a week!!!!:-( For me, that is really SERIOUS! Again, all things work together for good that love the Lord, has really taken on a personal meaning. The land slide of great things that have already come from this is miraculous (sp?). Soooo again, thank you for your prayers, God did here them. Onward and upward....Maryann | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Thanking God for you and your recovery, Jude | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Guys, Another amazing report: The graft took 100% !! To me it looks 100% nasty!! That's why she's the Doc and I'm not! Another good thing, the nerves were not destroyed, there was plenty of feeling! Ouch! When the Doc cut out the stitches today, I squealed so much that Sharon's eyes watered too! It was awful, I mean awful:-( Then I did my stand by reaction, laughed, and that helped. Doc is so amazed and impressed at the speed of the healing. She's a very good Doc, but, we also KNOW that ALL those prayers from all of you were a very important factor. Thank you all again! I've really had some time to ponder..... Onward and upward.....Maryann | ||
| Colleentinker |
MaryannóI'm praising God for your graft and for what he's doing for you! Thanks for the great report. I hope you've had some relief from the pain since getting those stitches out this morning. Still praying for you and yours, Colleen | ||
| Bruce H |
Marryann My prayers are with you, you are a real inspiration to me. Thankyou MA. Bruce Heinrich bh | ||
| Breezy |
HI EVERYONE! JUST WANTED TO LET YOU ALL KNOW THAT TOBY CAME HOME TODAY! (VIA THE HUMANE SOCIETY). WE ARE VERY GRATEFUL FOR EVERYONE'S PRAYERS AND PRAISE GOD THAT HE BROUGHT TOBY BACK TO US. HE WAS VERY CONTRITE AND PLEASE TO CRAWL BACK UNDER MY COMPUTER DESK AND CONTENTEDLY GO TO SLEEP AFTER HIS ARDUOUS EXPERIENCE. THANKS AGAIN AND GOD BLESS! WENDY | ||
| Chyna |
dear friends, although physically i'm not back to my normally healthy somewhat athletic self, i can tell my heart is beginning to heal. a real revelation hit me last night that I had done everything I could for the relationship. I loved him, I was genuine with him, and I loved him for who he was. it wasn't my fault that he didn't want to work things out; it was his fault for not wanting to work things out. it was his fault for not being able to love me how I was. somehow light has started to pierce my eye and I'm beginning to see why I am so much better without him than with him. thanks for your prayers. please continue to pray for him, i think that a lot of my talks with him did not go over well, and he got (if possible) more stubborn about his adventist beliefs. so he's a hard nut to crack now, but I'm sure God has plans for him. while I am still sad it feels much different to lose a relationship that was not as good as you thought it was than to lose a relationship with someone you thought you could be happy with for a long time. love in Christ, Chyna | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Chyna, You said: "i think that a lot of my talks with him did not go over well, and he got (if possible) more stubborn about his adventist beliefs. so he's a hard nut to crack now," HOW TRUE! If you throw a bone to two dogs, what happens? The harder one pulls the harder the other pulls. This continues till one is exhausted. This SDA (in our case) "bone" at times has to be let go. The harder we pull the harder they pull and dig their heals in. I know!!! My Mom is really dug in!! And I keep grabbing on to the end of the bone and we are always going Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr at each other. I have NOT had the time to really follow your story but have scanned a bit here and there. It really seems that you love him. I can say though, it is really hard to overcome such a diabolical theology difference. Keep up the prayer, faith and study....Maryann |
