| Author | Message | ||
| Timo K. |
Bruce, to answer your question, if it is same situation with adventist where I live than in Loma Linda, I cannot tell for sure. Past two years I have lived in Southern Florida and in this area there are not big adventist institutions like Loma Linda. Also most of the time I attend two Finish-speaking churches, a pentacostal church and a Lutheran church. These churches have more of a all-including tourist christian church character than strictly denomenational character. Their aim is to serve all tourist and local finish-people in this area. But I have also visited 3 SDA churches and a messianic Jewish synagoga. In addition I read finish adventist weekly magasine, and discuss finish advlist through e-mail. That is why I know more about Finish-adventism than about Florida situation. The only English christian magazine I keep at the moment is "Good News Unlimited" (Dr Ford), before I used to have many different magazines. I feel adventism is getting more and more Christ-centered. But since all who have accepted Christ belong to the same invisible Universal church we christians will benefit by visiting and praying with the whole "Body of Christ" | ||
| Bruce H |
Timo K I AM in that invisable Univeral church, with Jesus, and with you. I believe that you might have somthing to teach Adventist, the ones here in Loma linda need to hear the Gospel and understand it. My prayers are with you if God is indeed with you in your quest to give the Gospel to the Adventist. But I must caution you to remember what paul say about those that want to pervert the gospel of Christ. Gal 2:4 Watch for false brethren who are SECRETLY brought in (who came in by STEALTH to SPY out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus that they might bring us into BONDAGE). If you have children and you send them to Adventist school's they may STEAL the Gospel right out from your childrens noses, for that is what those who are under the Law do. I pray that you ask God in prayer if this is what he wants you to do. BH | ||
| Susan |
Timo, In response to your post on Oct.18,2:53pm I would like to respond. I agree that EGW was just an imperfect human. But as Lynn beautifully pointed out in her post on Oct.19 5:51pm (I think under "How do we wit.to non-sda's"), EGW claimed to be speaking for God. She along with her followers elevated her teachings to divine/inspired. Perhaps there is a shifting away from this mentality, but until there is a total renouncing of her, I cannot accept sda's as legitimate. You said "EGW was not a false prophet but an imperfect human" Was she a true prophet? She formed an entire church. She and her followers refer to her as the "Spirit of Prophecy" and you must agree with this to be baptised into adventism (Bap.vow #8), the baptismal vows and process are very unbiblical as well. I don't regard EGW's writings/teachings as holding any valadity for me. 1st of all she's been proven false, 2ndly we tend to forget her lack of education. I have a big problem with these. Was she a seminary student? Did she know Greek and Hebrew? In my opinion she was having visions from satan and not God (if her visions were from God they wouldn't have contradicted holy scripture, which repeatedly they do!) Therefore, I don't care to spend time reading her material or following ANYTHING she has to say. Just like I wouldn't buy into the false teachings of David Koresh or Jim Jones. Following these prophets proved deadly. Following the prophet EGW may not prove to be as deadly but it certainly leads to spiritual deadness which in turn can lead to eternal death. I know this sounds harsh, but I hold sda teachings to be cultic and dangerous. If you desire to read truly wonderful books by educated and godly men may I recommend anything by the following who've been a blessing to me (none of them are/were prophets though!): C.S.Lewis, John Stott, Francis Schaffer, Spurgeon, Deitrich Bonhoffer, R.C. Sproul, and there are many others. Now, about the unbiblical doctrines of the sda church. You said that you don't agree that there are many "unbiblical" adventist doctrines. I would like to point out a few. # 8 The Great Controversy,in the "27 fundamental beliefs of sda's" offical statement stands out as being totally unbiblical. There is no great controversy going on. This is absurd!!! It states "All humanity is now involved in a great controversy between Christ and Satan regarding the character of God, His law, and His sovereignty over the universe". According to my bible, God has always had and will continue to have soverign reign over all creation. Wasn't the battle over death conquered by Jesus? (past tense not present or future but a finished work!) I could stop at this heresey but I'll go on a bit more. This alone should freak us out. #12 A Remnant Church (???) Not only is this unbiblical but it's also an identifying mark of a cult. The baptismal vows and process are also unbiblical as I mentioned before. No other Christian church makes one agree to a list like this before baptism. See bible for true way! #17 The Gift of prophecy, Not only does this give the sda position of EGW as a messenger of God (a false messenger leading a church?), They claim her writings are a "continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction". I don't know about you, but I don't want an uneducated and false teacher providing any of these things to me. Her writings contradict the bible for crying out loud! Aren't we called to judge any and all teachings by scripture, and if it's contrary to the bible,disregard it? Also, aren't those who claim to speak for God held to a much higher scrutiny??? #19 The Sabbath, "It is a symbol of our redemption in Christ, a sign of our sanctification, a token of our allegiance..." This is SO unbiblical I can't stand it. Did they read Eph.1? My bible says the Holy spirit is a sign. #23 Christ's Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary, The whole thing is unbiblical and heretical. That's all I have to say about this cultic and unbiblical doctrine of investigative judgment. #25 Death and resurrection (Soul Sleep) Unbiblical! Any careful bible student can prove this doctrine false. This was just a "cover-our- rear" doctrine that was added when Investigative judgment doctrine came about. I could go on and on. I'm sure others could give much better researched answers to some of these. I strongly recommend Dale Ratzlaff's book " The Cultic Doctrine of Seventh-Day-Adventists" his website is www.ratzlaf.com. He gives a nice scholarly explanation of why adventists teachings are wrong and cultic. I just wanted to clarify what I mean by "unbiblical sda doctrines", there are more but I think these give a good explanation of my opionion. I'd enjoy what others have to say about "unbiblical teachings of sda's" that you've realized since becoming a Christian! In Christ Alone!!! | ||
| Lynn W |
Susan, you go girl! "In my opinion she was having visions from satan and not God" Ellen White said herself they were either from God or Satan - make a choice. We know God wouldn't contradict Himself. "Wasn't the battle over death conquered by Jesus?" Amen! Unless of course, you believe in the wimpy SDA "Jesus." "No other Christian church makes one agree to a list like this before baptism." My Baptismal Cert. is written on 1 side of 1 page. It says in effect: "my name was baptized at place by Reverend his name on date in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost." "The Gift of prophecy," Acts 2:17-18 says, "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:" So how can all of these be fulfilled in one woman? "It is a symbol of our redemption in Christ, a sign of our sanctification" She not only said a sign of, but that we are sanctified BY the Sabbath. ??? | ||
| Timo K |
Susan, Lynn and Bruce, I don't have so much problem in the way you present youre Biblical beliefs. Often times I believe the same way. However, I have some problems how far you go in critisising SDA-church and EGW. I have the impression that you regard the SDA-church totally rotten and EGW posessed by the Devil. Correct me if I have got a wrong impression. I am also critical toward many things in the church and EGW, but I don't see everything from the Devil. I don't think EGW got her visions from satan, as Lynn stated, but I think she had some "visions" from her own head. There has been suggested, that the brain damage, from the throwing of the stone, from the childhood caused her some mixups in the area of visions. I don't know how true that theory might be. But being possesed by satan, I have hard time believing it. About the fundamental beliefs: #8 Of course Christ has won the battle at Calvary. The war is now inside us. Do we accept Christ victory or satan lies. #12: Here I agree witth Susan. The remnant church is the invisible universal Church, in which all who have accepted Christ belong. In babtism I agree with Susan also. #17: I agree that "the Spirit of Prophesy" is not a right title to EGW. In my understanding only the Holy Spirit can have that title. #19:I regard Sabbath as the sign of our Sabbath Rest (Jesus), Who is brought to us by the babtism of the Holy Spirit. #23: Yes an unbiblical doctrine, needs to be canseled from the 27 doctrines. #25: Agree with SDA teaching, and cannot see connections to investigative judgement. I have read Dales book "the Cultic Doctrine of EGW" and even bought over 10 extra copies from a friend in Angwin to give to my SDA friends. My policy is to critisise SDA church only where I see wrong teaching. | ||
| Colleentinker |
Timo, I just have to comment on the question of whether or not EGW and Adventism is satanic. Regardless of whether or not Ellen got her visions from Satan or simply "from her own head", error and deception come from Satan, not God. (One reason I believe she probably got visions/dreams from Satan, however, is her repeated references to a handsome angel that was her guide during most of her dreams. If these dreams were not from God, this handsome guide was probably a 'familiar spirit', as the Bible names them.) It hardly matters whether her visions were made up or inspired by Satan; the fact that the church used the falsehood she endorsed to found and control a church makes it a church built on lies and deception. God has no place in deception; that is the domain of Satan. I have a friend who says she believes that Satan tipped his hand in Adventist theology. There's just enough truth in her prophecies to seduce us into believing her and anticipating events to happen as she said they would. The fact that so many things are already happening as she said they would (many will leave the church, many will deny the truth of her testimonies, etc.) suggests to me that Satan really did have something to do with her prophecies. The irony, though, is that when these things come to pass (people denying her testimonies and leaving the church) they are for the opposite reason she predicted. People are leaving her and Adventism because they are finding truth, not because they are leaving truth. I still remember people quoting her when I was in school: the greatest form of deception is to have truth with a little error mixed in. Since deception and falsehood are the province of Satan, then Satan must have a claim on Adventism. In fact, I believe that claim to be the reason so many Adventists have trouble seeing the truth, and I believe that claim is also the reason that most Adventists who leave the church also leave Christ. | ||
| Timo K |
Colleen, I am seeking some clarification about the working of the Holy Spirit. Some people seem to link right doctrine and Holy Spirit together. In my opinion the Holy Spirit does not teach us doctrines, but only uplift Christ for us. Only indirectly does the Holy spirit teach us doctrines, since it is easier to find "right" doctrines from a Christ-centered platform than otherwise. The Holy Spirit leads to the real Truth, and the reading of the Bible to "doctrinal truth". I agree that Mrs White didn't always make that distinction, and that might be the reason of some unfortionate doctrines like "the investigative judgement". Every person and church has error mixed with truth, that's why we need Christ Righteousness. The Body of Christ is represented with all kinds of teachings. Jesus is the only bond that keep the invisible Church united through the Spirit. If a Lutheran accepts Jesus and still believes infant babtism, he or she is still belonging to the invisible Church. If a Jehovah Wittnes accepts Christ, he or she is part of the Boby of Christ, regardless if he thinks that Jeesus is not God. Hopefully later he would accept Jesus as God, but he is not saved by Jesus +the right understanding of Jesus. Of course it is much easier to accept Christ-centered doctrines, in church enviroment of Christ-centered teachings, but I think it is good to remember that the Holy Spirit does not pick doctrines for us, we have to do it ourselves from the Bible. |
