| Author | Message | ||
| JeffH |
I was wondering if anyone had insight into Heb 6:4-6 and II Peter 2:20-22? It appears that II peter says you can lose your salvation and Hebrews that you can't get it back if you are a backslider. | ||
| Lynn W |
Don't know the answer, but here's the verses for everyone to read, plus another passage I found. Heb 6:4-6 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." 2 Pet 2:20-22 "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire." Heb 10:26-27 "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." | ||
| Joni |
A Quote from one of my commentairies: These verses have been commandeered into service of the most amazing variety of theological positions. Arminians (after Jacobus Arminius) 1560-1609, take them as proof that it is possible for someone who has once been a believer to fall away from faith irretrievably. Calvinists (after John Calvin 1509-1564) interpret them in such a way as to make that a practical immpossibility. The dispute between them has fueled many fires, but often forgotton is the author's purpose, which is not to deal abstractly with the eternal security of the believer, but specifically with his readers concern that unless the Levitical sacrifices required by the 5 books of Moses are offered their sins remnain unforgiven. Whether they had in fact reintroduced sacrifices on their own...... I am indebted to Jerome Fleishcher, a Messianic Jew with a ministry in the ......area for pointing out to me that the author's purpose was not to provide fuel for the Calvinist-Arminian controversy of 1500 years later but to turn his readers concern away from animal sacrifices and toward the significance of Yeshua's (Jesus)final sacrifice. This is clear from the context of the following 4 chapters, which deal with precisely this question and which constitute the heart of the book" Anyway, there are 2 views going on. Take your pick. What is the most consistant with God's character and the rest of the Bible????? When I read different views on subjects I just know that God's ways are higher than my ways and I trust Him. | ||
| Bruce H |
JEFF lets do one text at a time (2 Peter 2:20-21) BRUCE H When reading a text read all of it. Read the preciding verses as well as the verses following it to find out who the author is talking about--if they are the Church or the world, the saved or not (in other words, those sealed by the Holy Spirit or not). In 2 Peter 2:20-21 Peter is writing to the churches and warning them of false teachers. In verse 18 he is saying that the false teachers speak great swelling words of emptiness, and they allure through the lusts of the flesh. These false teachers promise others liberty, yet they themselves are slaves of corruption. These false teachers are not saved for it never refers to them as saints or as one of the church, or as brethren, or as those sanctified in Christ Jesus. I see these false teachers as those who know the truth of salvation but do not accept the gift, either due to pride or due to the fact that they like to sin. The bible clearly states that once you are born again that your life will change, but if someone goes out teaching the truth yet you do not see truth in his walk he most likly is not a new creation. So in 2 Peter 2:20-21 he is talking to those who know the truth yet do not accept the Gospel. 1 Peter 4:17--Notice the difference in the way Paul talkes to one of the Church of God, or Saint's, or those sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is sinning. In 1 Cor. 5:5 one of the saved is sinning by taking his father's wife, but notice what Paul says. "Deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." So we are to not have fellowship with him but put him out to the world and let God and Satan do there work. But in the end the saint will be saved on the day of the lord Jesus. | ||
| Bruce H |
Jeff Now let us look at Hebrews 5: 4-6 , Matt 24:24 If you read the texts before and after these texts you will find out that in the book of Hebrews chapter's 5 and 10 the author is talking to those who are saved, to the Church or to the Saint's. Now that we know who he is talking to let us look very closely to the versus Heb 5:4-6. Notice that in verse 6 it say "IF they fall away,". Now let us look at Matt 24:24 It say's this "IF possible, even the elect." My question for those who see these text's do you walk by faith and trust in God having no fear, and trust in the love of Jesus for your salvation (Love casts out all fear). Or do you worry and doubt thinking it is possible for you to fall away or to be deceived by false prophets relying on yourself rather than God. What is it Faith and Love, or Fear, doubt and death. | ||
| jeffH |
I suppose that reading a text like hebrews does make me doubt some and I hope that by examining texts like these that it will remove that doubt. Obviously we are also to prayer for God's peace as well. Anyway, I have been thinking about this text and reading it and the rest of hebrews. I noticed that the end of the passage states "It is impossible ... if they fall away to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace." Since it is impossible for anything Christ has done to be a public disgrace and it is clear from many texts that all can have repentance with no conditions(except impardonable sin) then what I think this text is saying is that it is impossible to fall away, because it would mean that what christ did on the cross was not enough. Anyway that is a possible explanation. | ||
| Lori |
I have a question about Michael the Archangel and whether that represents Christ or not. A friend of mine says that since all the references to the angel of the Lord in the OT refer to Christ, then that is proof that Michael also represents Christ. Any insight that you could give me on the subject would be appreciated. The only text that I know of that refer to Michael the archangel are Jude 9, Rev. 12:7 and also in OT, Daniel Chapters 10 and 12. My question is how do you know if it does or does not represent Christ? And does it really make any difference? Thanks!!!!!! Feel free to email me belair@alltel.net |
