| Author | Message | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Can anyone provide any scriptural proof that Jesus kept the Sabbath? I was always taught that Jesus was our examle and if he kept the Sabbath, then so should we. Of course Jesus also observed many Jewish festivals, but no one advocates for us observing those. However, in my devotions, I have been studying the book of John. This morning I came across a "strange" text. In John 5, Jesus had just healed the man at the Pool of Bethesda on the Sabbath. When he was confronted by the Jews for committing such a heretical act,Jesus response in John 5:17, was "My father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working." By His use of the word "this," Jesus was speaking of the Sabbath. Clearly, His telling the man to "pick up His bed and walk" was a breaking of the Sabbath. Back in Exodus, God (not the Jews) commanded that a man be stoned for something as simple as picking up kindling on the Sabbath. Why would picking up your bed (mat) be any different? Jesus could have healed this man on any day. I believe He intentionally chose the Sabbath for two reasons. First, He wanted to demonstrate that He is above the Sabbath. It is to Him that the Sabbath pointed, therefore, He could not be constrained by it. The Sabbath was created for man, not man (or God) for the Sabbath. 2. His ministry was one of release. His question to the paralyzed man of thirty eight years was, "do you want to get well?" He then released him from his sickness. That is what the Sabbath symbolizes, release from bondage and entering into God's perfect rest. It dawned on me as I was studying this that there is no where in scripture that I see where Jesus "kept" the Sabbath. He went into the Synagogue, as was His custom, but that is not synonymous with "keeping the Sabbath." Going to church on Saturday is not "keeping" the Sabbath. "Cursed is everyone who does not contnue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." So, my challenge stands, $10,000 to the person who can prove that Jesus "kept" the Sabbath. I do not really have $10,000 to give, but I don't think I will need it. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Freeatlast (Freeatlast) |
I was studying Genesis just yesterday and it occurred to me that when God hallowed the seventh day after 6 days of creation, there doesn't appear to be anything within the text that indicates that He hallowed EVERY seventh day. No Scriptural evidence for that exists that I can find until the giving of the Law at Sinai. Food for thought... | ||
| Freeatlast (Freeatlast) |
Historic Adventists would tell you that Jesus was merely "correcting" the Pharisee's incorrect way of keeping the Sabbath. That Jesus indeed kept the Sabbath, only He did it the right way. I'm thinking of doubling your offer if anyone can show us Christians our instructions for keeping the Sabbath. OT text goes to great lengths to dictate how the Sabbath was to be kept in Israel around 2,000 BC. What about in Los Angeles in 2002 AD? For something upon which so much rides, why didn't God give us instructions? | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Doug, Personally, I think He did keep the Sabbath. He was born under the law to redeem those who are under the law. I think He grew up in a family that kept the laws. I don't think that it was God's intention for the Sabbath to become the legalistic monster that the Pharisee's made it out to be. He gave one commandment and they turned it into over 1000 petty rules and regulations. Remember He said the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath, His business was to save the lost, to heal the sick, to show love as our example. I think He was trying to show the Pharisees that they had forgotten the love in their zeal for the law. Love conquers all, even our need for a Sabbath rest. | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Sabra, Can you provide scriptural support for your assertion? I can show you several places where Jesus violated the Sabbath--intentionally. The Pharisees did have some rigid rules as they applied to the Sabbath, but God gave some pretty rigid rules as well. My point is that Jesus did not come to fulfill the law, He WAS the fulfillment of the law. That's a big difference. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Freeatlast (Freeatlast) |
Doug, I think Sabra's point (and I tend to agree) is that Jesus kept the Jewish Sabbath Law as God had intended for it to be kept (by the "Sprit" and not by the "letter".) He "broke" the commandment according to the Pharisees' incorrect interpretation of that Law, but He had to fulfil the Sabbath commandment according to what God really required, along with all the others, in order to be the Messiah. | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Doug, You're right in the point that you are trying to make. Jesus did not keep the Sabbath in the Pharisees' view of keeping it. In Luke 14 He asked them if was lawful to heal on the Sabbath and they had no reply because either way He was going to make them look bad. It wasn't God who said not to take up your bed on the Sabbath, it was the traditions of man. Jesus tried to show them LOVE, they didn't get it, "the veil is only taken away in Jesus" I think since He was born under the law, He didn't do physical labor for the purpose of monetary gain, but He did do His Father's work, which was done in love. There is scripture that shows He worshipped in the synagogue on the Sabbath, as was His tradition. I see the point you're trying to make, I do, however believe that He kept the Sabbath and fulfiled it in His death when He said "It is finished!" | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Sabra, I don't want to belabor the point, but I am saying that not only did Jesus not keep the Sabbath in the Pharisee's view of keeping it, but he also didn't keep it in the manner in which the Jews had been instructed by God to keep it. This is an important point (although not to the point of losing friends over it) because it highlights the purpose of the law. To say that it was necessary for Jesus to "fulfill" the commandments makes the keeping of the law the goal. In effect, it says that if a person were able to keep the law, then he or she would be justified. However, the keeping of the law has never been the goal. "For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law." The goal has always been harmony or fellowship with God. The commandments simply point out how far out of step we are with God. In the same way, the Sabbath was given as a \red {symbol} of the rest that the Jews would soon obtain in Jesus. Each time they kept it, it was to remind them of the Promised Seed. To suggest that there was a requirement for Him to perfectly keep the Sabbath in order to purchase our salvation shifts the focus off of the original and onto the image. What I am saying is that it would be impossible for Jesus to break the Sabbath because he IS the Sabbath. He was the Sabbath on Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and Saturday. No matter what He did, He was the Sabbath--even if He was doing things that HE had instructed the Jews not to do. He was the Sabbath before the law was given and He is the Sabbath now that the law has been fulfilled. The purpose of the Sabbath was to be a reminder (for man) of what was eternal. When he asked them if it was lawful to heal on the Sabbath, He was attempting to elevate their view from the symbol (the requirements of the law) to the original (Himself and His mission). He was trying to show them that the requirements of the law served a purpose, but that purpose was coming to an end now that the reality was here. If you continue to read John chapter 5, he concludes the story of healing the man at the pool (on the Sabbath) by telling them about all the things that testify of Him (John, the Scriptures, and the Law of Moses). Unfortunately, the Pharisees were never able to see beyond the symbol. That's why they continually accused Him of breaking the very thing testified of Him. I am going to suggest a paradigm shift. Jesus did not purchase our salvation by keeping the law perfectly. He purchased our salvation by taking the form of sinful man and maintaining perfect harmony with His father. He maintained that trust relationship (complete dependence) that God had intended Adam and his descendants (us)to have with Him. I certainly am not above teaching, and if there are those who believe I am off base in my thinking, I welcome comments. But whether you agree with me or not, we do all agree that we are firmly planted in His grace, and that's all that is important. Doug | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Doug, Like I said, I understand exactly what you are saying. Consider the fact that Jesus was born into this world as a man, into a family that kept the law. He was circumcized, He observed the feasts and we know that He went to the Synagogue on the Sabbath. None of these things are required for salvation any more than keeping the Sabbath. He came to fulfill the law and the prophets with His blood and that wasn't completed until the blood was shed. We aren't given a lot of the details of his childhood, but wouldn't it make sense that if his earthly family observed all of these things...circumcision, feasts etc. that they also observed the Sabbath in the way that it was given to them by Moses? The very reason that the Jews continue in these traditions is because they did not recognize Him when He came. They don't know He fulfilled the law. I think if the scripture says He was born under the law, He was born under the law. That doesn't suggest that He didn't observe the law. To be under the law and not observe it would be sin, right? and we know He didn't sin. You said He didn't keep it in the manner that God instructed the Jews to keep it. I'm not sure you can find that in the Bible, but I'm not waging $10,000 on it.  Praise God He delivered us from the bondage of the law and that we have His assurance of salvation. That is truly what is important! Great discussion, Doug! I'm glad we have His intended rest now, no matter how it got that way! Sabra | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Sabra, you said: "You said He didn't keep it in the manner that God instructed the Jews to keep it. I'm not sure you can find that in the Bible, but I'm not waging $10,000 on it." How about Jeremiah 17:27, "But if you do not obey me to keep the Sabbath day holy by not carrying any load as you come through the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath day, then I will kindle an unquenchable fire in the gates of Jerusalem that will consume her fortress. Or Exodus 35:1-3, "Moses assembled the whole Israelite community and said to them, 'these are the things the lord has commanded you do: for six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death. Do not light a fire in any of your dwellngs on the Sabbath day." or Numbers 15:32, "While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath Day. Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be odne with him. Then the Lord said to Moses, 'The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp." So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him as the lord commanded Moses." So you see, the Pharisees were not the only ones with very rigid rules surrounding the Sabbath. By telling the man to "pick up his bed" and walk, he was as much in violation of the law as was the man who was gathering wood. As I said, I don't want to make an issue of this, so I'll back off. Its a disputable matter. I will take my $10,000 though <smile>. Take care. Doug | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Wow, what a great discussion! You bring up a very good point, Sabra and Doug. One of the laws of Sabbath keeping God gave to Israel was that they were not to leave their tents that day. Clearly even the Jews of Jesus' day left their dwellings to go to the synagogue. I credit Dale Ratzlaff with the insight I'm about to share. He talked to our FAF group one evening over a year ago, and he pointed out that Sabbath was not the only Jewish law Jesus deliberately broke. When he healed lepers and raised dead people, he clearly broke the laws of ritual cleanliness. Those laws also were given by God through Moses to Israel, and those laws were not yet "nailed to the cross", either. (At any rate, the Ten Commandments and the ceremonial laws were all part of the LAWóan inseparable whole.) But back to the discussion. Jesus touched dead people and unclean people and did not perform the customary ceremonial cleansing before associating with other people. That fact, Dale suggested, was part of the reason he told people who had been healed not to tell. His apparent breaking of the law was done for the purpose of demonstrating that he was the Messiahóthe Son of Godóthe one to whom the law pointed. If his law breaking became the focus of the Pharisees attention, they would have even more reason to try to frustrate His work. Jesus' fulfilling of the law was not about keeping it perfectly. It was about his BEING the LAW. He is God. The law is inseparable from the person of God. The Jews, as our women's ministry leader Elizabeeth Inrig pointed out, expected the Messiah to come. What they didn't understand (because it had been veiled in the Old Testament) was that the Messiah would actually BE GOD. When he came, he fuliflled the law. He was the God-man every lawóincluding the 10ópointed to. He fulfilled the law by being our Savior and our Creator and our Lord. His technical keeping or not keeping of the law was not what constituted his fulfilling it. I do not believe Jesus scorned the law. He honored it. But he did treat the ceremonial lawsóincluding the Sabbathódifferently than the Jews had been commanded to treat them. And he treated the 10 commandments differently, too. He enlarged them and defined them as much more inclusive and difficult than Moses had. Keeping the law was never about "getting it right." It has always been about living in communion with Godóthe only way to live the law. Only the Lord Jesus can make the lawóhis own presenceócome alive in our hearts and in our behaviors. Jesus' fulfilling the law was his demonstrating that he was the Lord of the Law. I praise Him for Himself and for being the new covenant for us! Colleen | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Doug, Good point on the Jeremiah text. I've said several times that when I think I know something, it becomes clear that I don't know anything. Thanks for bringing the topic up. I see that you're saying what Hebrews explains, that Christ is superior over the law and the prophets and everything. You're right, and I'm glad you showed me a much broader way of looking at it. Freeatlast, One thing you mentioned about the creation, "there doesn't appear to be anything in the text that indicates he hallowed every seventh day" Something to think about, that really hit me one day, is that after each day 1-6, it says "and the evening and the sun were the 1st, (2nd, etc) day" all the way to the 6th. When He blessed the Sabbath and hallowed it, there isn't that "evening and the sun were the 7th day" Why? Because, it wasn't intended to be just one day, it was intended to be forever. His intention at creation was for man to have perfect harmony with Him, to be connected to Him, to be free from sin, that Sabbath "rest" was broken by the fall, man became spiritually dead and disconnected from God. That 4th commandment later became necessary to point people to Christ who would later come and bring back the intended, permanent rest. Sometimes I think we are actually priveledged to have come from where we came, because most Christians haven't had to think all of this through and don't have this depth of understanding what Christ really represents. Praise Him for turning something that was a tremendous burden to me into a blessing! | ||
| Sherry2 (Sherry2) |
Exactly, Sabra. It doesn't seperate the 7th because it was a perpetual relationship with him. The Jews look at the Second Coming as that continued Sabbath blessing - being with God in harmony forever... And yes, Jesus did deliberatley "break" the Sabbath in some points. My thoughts a) he was showing again He was the fulfillment of the whole sanctuary system and sovereign to it (since He established it)- He was the temple, He was the Sabbath, He was every part of the ceremonial law fulfilled. The sabbath was a sign of the old covenant. But he came to establish the new. He was the center of the New Covenant..what do we do to inherit eternal life? We trust in Jesus as the Son of God and man, came to die and raised from the dead to give us eternal life. To show you were following God's will, Old Covenant, you kept the sign, same as a wedding ring symbolizes marriage, and taking it off and throwing it away would show the desire to annul that marriage. Well Jesus replaces that center in the New Covenant. In Old Testament times, the sign of covenant was put dead center of the contract, so the sabbath was. Now Who is the glorious center? Jesus. And of a New Covenant. As SDA's we heard the phrase that God was the same today, yesterday and forever, therefore the Sabbath still stands... and that is true to a point. His methods do change, but His purposes don't. His righteousness doesn't. Just the way He choses to teach us does. | ||
| Darrell (Darrell) |
Colleen, I am glad you mentioned about Jesus not following the ritual cleansing laws after touching unclean people. It is profound that when Jesus touched someone unclean, rather than His becoming "unclean" according to the Jewish law, the unclean person instead became clean. In addition to the cases of healing lepers, this happened when the woman who was bleeding touched the edge of His clothes. It never occurred to me that there could be a connection between these incidents and the sabbath. Hmmm, it is something to think about. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Darrellówelcome back to the forum! Do you want to share your news with everyone?! Colleen | ||
| Darrell (Darrell) |
Well Colleen, since you mentioned it, I have been pretty busy lately and have lost some sleep, but it is all worth while, because I have been caring for my first-born son, who is now about 6 weeks old. Right now he is lying in a bouncer next to me in a playful mood with his eyes wide open, but it is not always like that! Oops, have to run, he is getting tired and fussy already! | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Congratulations Darrell, I still remember that experience from 16 years ago. It only gets better--especially when they start sleeping through the night <smile> Doug | ||
| Lori (Lori) |
Actually, Christs work on the cross was completed prior to any "blood shed". It was Christs spiritual death on the cross that completed the work of salvation. All the sins of the world were judged and Christ received the penalty---separation from God. This was the only time on the cross that our Lord screamed out--only the agony of separation from the Father caused him to react. He gave no reaction at all to any of the physical pain he suffered. By the time his side was pierced he had already commended his spirit to the Father. So...this means that his soul and spirit had already left his body prior to his side being pierced. Which means there was nothing living inside his body at the time. The minor amount of blood that flowed from his side would have been nothing in comparison to the life blood that flowed from the lambs major artery when it was sacrificed. And it was not only blood that flowed, scripture says it was blood and water which means it was "dead blood"--blood which had already changed because it had ceased to circulate for a while. Just something to think about......... | ||
| Windmotion (Windmotion) |
I recently finished reading an article on the ellenwhite.org Web site that pokes one more hole in the investigative judgment argument. The author expounds on very effectively a fact which I had never noticed before. How can the Old Testament Day of Atonement, a day of forgiveness by God toward His people, be linked to the doctrine of Investigative Judgment, where the punishment for sin is meted out to anyone unfortunate to be caught with unconfessed sin. The author points out the definitions of "atonement" and "judgment" are completely opposite and any attempt to link them distorts their meaning. How can the fallacy be made any more simple? Check it out at http://www.ellenwhite.org/egw72.htm --Hannah | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Doug, Do you mind if I borrow some of your thoughts concerning John 5? My SDA cousin says she's come to the conclusion that Jesus broke the Sabbath! WOW, without my bringing it up! Funny how things like that work out. See, if you hadn't brought it up, I'd be argueing with her! | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Sabra, You are entirely welcome to use anything you see here. Like Colleen, I must give credit to Dae Ratzlaf for my understanding of the Sabbath. He basically laid the foundation, and now I see the application everywhere. Now, I can't see how I could have seen it any other way. It is amazing how God works? I can't count the number times I have been studying something, then ended up in a conversation with someone about the same text or heard a sermon about it. It shouldn't surprise me anymore, but it still does. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Thanks, didn't want to be a plagerer (sp) ha! It is amazing how that happens. Just happened on a forum with the same thing !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WOW!! W O W !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
