| Author | Message | ||
| Onesimus |
I live near a major hub of Adventism. Some of the Christians that I speak with accept Adventism as legitimate, especially ones who are "evangelical Adventists." What is your opinion of "evangelical Adventism?" Is there such a thing? Is it healthy? (I have listened to Mark Martin's tape on the subject. I am curious to what the beliefs are of those who visit this site.) | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Dear Onesimus, What a great Internet "handle" Onesimus is! In one place (Colossians 4:9), St. Paul calls him his "faithful and beloved brother." In another place (Philemon 1:10), he calls him "my son, whom I have begotten in my bonds." What a beautiful metaphor, especially since, as you know, the biblical Onesimus was an escaped slave whom Paul sent back to his master after "begetting" him into Christ. I also live near a major hub of Adventism. I know a number of Ph.D. theologians in current or former (e.g., retired or fired) positions of denominational authority and trust. To a person, as far as I can tell, they are good, honest and honorable people. Some of them may feel trapped and threatened within the system. And some of them think pretty much the way I do, but are not at liberty to teach or to say or write publicly anything that does not accord in detail with the 27 points of fundamental belief. I recall one of them having spoken to me once of disagreement with evangelical Adventism (EA). The gist of the opinion went something like this: EAs believe that when one is tempted one must not struggle to resist the tempter/temptation, but should instead intensify one's life of private prayer, Bible study and other forms of devotion, such as meditation and hymn-singing. In other words, "flee the devil and fly to Jesus" or FDFJ. In this instance the particular reference was to resisting temptation to commit adultery or fornication with another church member, although all forms of temptation (unholy language, malice, envy, covetousness, pride, gluttony, etc.) were clearly included. My source objected to this evangelical or FDFJ approach because the true disciple needs to struggle spiritually with the tests that God sends in order to grow strong spiritually. In this theologian's view faith is like a muscle. One must exercise it to strengthen it. And exercising it means facing and overcoming temptations or tests. Don't wimp out, but stare down the devil, eyeball-to-eyeball, and see who blinks first. My source gave an example of an evangelical SDA pastor who has or has had the reputation of being one of the originators and one of the strongest champions of EA in the entire denomination. This same minister, my source said, is currently denying powerful and formal charges of adultery brought by one of his former female parishioners. She has confessed and repented and published her story. He continues to deny her allegation and to preach EA. Reminds me of something that happened during my undergraduate years on an Adventist college campus. Two fellow students, John and Carla (not their real names), would spend all night in each other's arms "in prayer" when on home leave. Think of how strong their faith must have become, resisting all that temptation! Eventually they got married and as far as I know are still married and are very active in their Adventist community. My point: The EA approach is to break apart and go back to their respective homes and pray pray pray all night. The non-EA approach is to hang in there and pray-resist, pray-resist, pray-resist all night. Personally I think it's a rather shallow-minded distinction to be made, bordering on the obsessive-compulsive, and neither approach has much biblical merit to recommend it. But that's just my opinion. The line between EA and mainline Adventism seems to me to be so fine as to be impossible to locate precisely on the SDA theological map. But differences of opinion within the ranks remain hard and in some cases harsh. I think one could safely conclude that if pew-sitting Adventists have little idea of what EA is all about and how to distinguish it from mainline Adventism, then non-Adventists -- even "evangelical Christians," who certainly have no difficulty defining themselves -- couldn't boast so much as a clue. Perhaps a theological Shirlock Holmes could help. I have yet to hear Mark Martin's tape on the subject. Could you reply with the substance of his opinion? Or could I find it published somewhere on the Internet? As to whether EAs are edging closer to Evangelical Christianity, I wouldn't wager the family farm, having attended a Celebration church maybe 20 Sabbaths and finding the Sabbath School classes (but not the sermons) as legalistic as anywhere else, despite the dancing in the aisles, the roaring "Praise You Lords," the lying prostrate in front of the life-size wooden cross on the wall, the "love-in" style "garden of prayer" part of the worship, the toddlers taking up the offering, the shorts and torn sweatshirts on some of the worshipers, the loud dangling jewelry, the real-meat hamburgers at church potlucks, etc., etc., etc. The defining issues seem to lie elsewhere, namely, Biblical theory (theology) and practice vs. SDA church doctrine in theory and practice. I will limit myself to only six examples (out of scores and scores): 1. Is it necessary to keep the Sabbath once you have accepted Christ? 2. What was "nailed to the cross" (Colossians 2:13-15)? "The Mosaic law," as the NIV Study Bible (page 1817) has it? Meaning the whole Torah including the Sabbath commandment? Or was it only an IOU (certificate of indebtedness to God)? Or, in the late Edward Heppenstall's words, "the curse of the law"? Or in Samuele Bacchiocchi's words, "the record book of sins" (From Sabbath to Sunday, page 350)? 3. When Paul writes -- (Colossians 2:18, NIV), "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day" -- does he mean the Seventh-day Sabbath? Or an annual Sabbath? If he means the weekly Sabbath, then Paul is saying, Don't let anybody judge you if you decide to keep Sunday instead of Saturday! And if that interpretation (which both Bacchiocchi and Des Ford accept!) were accepted and practiced widely within Adventism, would many more "whole churches go out" than is now the case. Could the denomination in North America even survive? 4. In what sense, if at all, does the SDA denomination comprise "God's remnant people"? 5. Which of the Old Testament commands remain valid in New Testament times? Keep the Sabbath from sundown to sundown? Do not gather firewood when camping out at a national park on the Sabbath (Numbers 15:32)? Or, if you have already built your fire before sundown Friday, must you refrain from lighting it on Sabbath (Exodus 53:3)? You may not eat pork or shellfish, but you may eat the "locust, katydid, cricket or grasshopper" (Lev. 11:22, NIV)? These may seem trivial, but there are scores of examples, and Adventism has no system, doesn't know where to draw the line in theory, and draws it arbitrarily in practice. 6. Why do Adventists fail to bear arms in war to defend Presbyterians, but consider it absolutely vital that Presbyterians bear arms to defend Adventists? 7. Why do many Adventists (including pastors and conference presidents) think itís a sin to ́dance unto the Lordî in church, when Psalm 150 says ́Praise God in his sanctuaryî (verse 1) and ́praise him with tambourine and dancingî (verse 4)? These are not just issues between mainstream Adventists and evangelical Adventists. These are Bible issues that that I think are proving to be decisive among the many younger, educated, thinking, upwardly-mobile North American Adventists who are hemorrhaging from the denomination apparently in record numbers. I think further that the "Celebration Church" movement, which is a manifestation of EA, may only be a half-way house out of Adventism, at least for many. What do you think? May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, my brother, Jude the Obscure | ||
| Bruce H |
Onesimus I think an "evangelical Adventists" is the same as an "evangelical Morman" or "evangelical Jehova Witness" or "evangelical Catholic" or "evangelical Pope" or "evangelical Christian Scientist" or "evangelical Budist" or "evangelical Moonie" John 4:6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. Onesimus God is Black or white, There is no grey areas with God it is either truth or error they can not be mixed when it comes to the Gospel. I dont think there are many if any EA. I do not think Adventism is healthy at all. My Beliefs are That Jesus Christ has saved me, He has died for my sins, past present and future. I have asked him into my heart and he dwells there, and he is justifing me and he will never leave me | ||
| Ernie |
Onesimus: What a wonderful question! I struggled to be an evangelical Adventist minister for many years. However, the Lord showed me one day that it was impossible to keep finding the SDA theology at fault and still defending the SDA Church. As Bruce has said, an evangelical Adventist is an oximoron. Once you become evangelical within Adventism, the only option is to find an evangelical church and become a member there. The entire SDA system is contrary to the evangelical faith. It denies the accomplished work of Christ on the cross by introducing the Investigative Judgment. It denies the finished redemption by introducing the Sabbath doctrine as part of the Christian faith. It brings back to life the Torah and its practices when it teaches the Old Testament diet for Christians, aginst the admonition of the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15 and Galatian). In other words, Adventism as a whole is not evangelical. Therefore, it is not possible to be a so called "evangelical Adventist." May God bless you richly, Ernie | ||
| Lydell |
Ernie, I have to agree with you. From everything we have heard of the "evangelical Adventists" it appears to be that they are the ones who have honestly started listening to the Lord. Only started! Just a beginning baby step. It just seems so curious to us that what seems to happen, at least with the celebration churches, follows a regular pattern. First, they institute true worship into their services. Because they have done that, the Holy Spirit shows up. Once the Holy Spirit shows up, people begin to see real light.....whether it is the entire congregation or merely a handful. Those who begin to see light realize that they no longer need Ellen White, that the Bible and Holy Spirit are sufficient guide to truth. Once EGW is out of the picture, the focus on externals drops away, then the doctrinal error begins to tumble. Then, as you said, whether the church kicks them out or they themselves run for freedom, they leave. No wonder the leadership so detests the whole celebration movement. It's a very dangerous thing to our pride (not to mention to the private kingdom of SDA control) to spend time just acknowledging back to God who He is and what He has done. It puts us in our place, shoves aside our personal agendas, and opens us up for Him to change us. Sounds like "evangelical Adventism" is like a half-way house. It's the place where the person makes up their mind what they are going to go with for the rest of their lives, EGW or God. | ||
| Timo K |
I know many evangelical adventists. When an adventist accepts the Blood of Christ as the only basis of salvation, that person is evangelical. Jeesus always says WHO-SO-EVER. There is no distinction of who you are. His arms are open for everyone. timo, a sinner saved by the Blood of Christ. | ||
| Bob |
Jude: Below is the web link to Martin's messages on "Evangelical Adventism." If you have Real Audio installed on your computer, you can listen to the messages. He also has them available on audio cassette tapes. Listening to them is a "must'! http://www.sdaoutreach.org/real.html |
