| Author | Message | ||
| Cas |
Renie-I agree with you regarding the converts to SDA'ism. I am not sure what the percentages are but I would bet that the converts to Adventism are largely from "Sunday Churches" who already know and have a relationship with the Lord. The Adventists IMO do not bring in the unbelievers in great numbers. (at least in this country). It's a sad commentary. To anyone interested in a good Jesus movie-I bought the 4set vidio series of the Visual Bible account of Matthew starring Bruce Marchiano, and his book called In the Footsteps of Jesus. It is very cool!! God Bless everybody. p.s. To whoever said that EA are still hung up on the Sabbath, I don't see that as a problem as long as they are keeping it in a non legalistic sense and it is not burdensome. I really don't see where Jesus would care what day a person worshiped on?? wdyt. | ||
| Lydell |
Cas, the problem would be if they are "hung up on the Sabbath" i.e. still somehow thinking or saying that it is a requirement that must be kept, or if they are just attending church on that day. There's a big difference between the two! Our experience down here in southeast AL with holding 2 or 3 "Revelation Seminars" (Lord we repent of having spread error!!), showed us that in this part of the country about the only ones coming into the SDA's are from other churches as well. Gee, I'd love to be able to come over to your house and watch those Matthew videos! Saw some preview clips on TV. They looked wonderful. I loved the part where they have Jesus calling Matthew with just the simple words, "Follow me." Can you imagine how those two words must have cut all the way to the core of his being in an instant?! For Jude, or whoever it was that said they are staying in the church as a witness for now, could I offer one unsolicited piece of advice? (Groan, don't we all love those!) But this is from our personal experience and I would love to save you from making the same mistake somewhere along the line. We, too, stayed in the SDA's for several years to witness as you have said. The problem was, we forgot to ask HIM if it was HIS idea for us to do that. No, that's not quite accurate. We sort of assumed it was His will, in prayer we would perhaps pray "Lord I know you want us to stay, right, so what should we try now? Another Bible study group perhaps?" And we never EVER stopped to actually shut up and listen for His answer. If we had, we are certain we would have heard at least 4 years sooner, "I NEVER said I wanted you to STAY!" (That was literally what He told us when we finally listened.) I'm not telling you that you are wrong!! Only you and the Lord can figure that one out. I'm just warning you to be very VERY careful to ask Him if it is His will, AND listen for His answer. You see, because we stayed beyond the time that it was His will for us to leave, we ended up having to go through a sort of "de-tox" time with Him for a couple of years after that. By that time there were wounds to be healed, attitudes to be corrected, etc. that would not have been there had we gone when it was HIS timing for us to leave. Like I said, I'm just sharing from our experience in case it can benefit someone else. In our case, we were in a very small church. We can now look at that situation and see that because it was a small group, we should have realized very soon that those who might possibly listen to truth had already been spoken to and rejected it and there was no point in staying. maybe it would be somewhat different in a large church. At any rate, I can see that it would be absolutely vital to your spiritual health in what you are doing to get yourself into a healthy body of believers also. You will need to be feed deeply and surrounded with brothers and sisters in Christ who will uphold you in prayer. | ||
| Bruce H |
I would like to bring in a Bible text. 1 Cor 5:11-13 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a BROTHER, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner, not even to eat with such a person. For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. It is true that we are not to judge those outside the Body. But inside the Body we are to judge. Notice That we consider them who we are judging inside the body or part of the Body of Christ. But remember what paul taught about those legalist. Remember paul says we are to cast out Hagar and Ishmael or the OLD COVENANT AND OUR WORKS (Gal 4:21-31). The real question is are Adventist in the Body of Christ. If they are not then we are not to judge them but love them and give them the Gospel. If however they are of the Body of Christ then we are to judge them. When working with Adventist you must walk buy the spirit in order to discern who you are dealing with and weather you should judge or not. | ||
| Susan |
A great resource for this topic is Mark Martin. His tapes on "Evangelical Adventists?" are excellent!(www.sdaoutreach.org ?) I think someone mentioned this already but it's worth repeating. I'd also like to suggest one of my top 10 sites for sound biblical info. Rolaant Mckenzie is a former sda and his site is www.gospeloutreach.net I've found his site to be one of the best for apologetics and good teaching. I just can't recommend this site highly enough. In Christ alone, Susan | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Dear Timo, I have to apologize to you. I misjudged you. Your English usage misled me into thinking that you were a ìweak babe in Christî who needed protection. But after reading your post of December 4, I see that your understanding of the gospel is deep and powerful indeed. You made three statements that especially impressed me: 1. When we accept Christ, we are born as a member of the universal invisible church. Yes! And if we take 1st Corinthians 1 seriously we will see that even denominationalism is wrong. For when Paul wrote that chapter there were no denominations. There were factions ñ ìI follow Apollos,î ìI follow Cephas,î ìI follow Paul,î ìI follow Christ.î If all Christians had taken Paul seriously these factions would have never developed into the full-blown denominations we have today. 2. We do no good only pointing out how legalistic and wrong a religious slave is. Right! Adventists are religious slaves, self-selected when SDA ìevangelistsî invite them into "the ark of safety" by telling them the following lies: (1) The world is out to get them. (2) Join the Adventist church where there is special, exclusive truth (gnosticism, e.g., EGW) that will protect them. (3) The Second Coming will prove that SDAs ("the insiders") are right and that all others (ìthe outsidersî) are wrong, for Jesus will ìdestroy THEM with the brightness of his comingî and "then WE will rise to meet Jesus in the air.î Vengeance is sooooo sweet, isn't it? Trouble is, folks who really believe that are being set up for a great deception. They are led to believe that it is a set of doctrinal propositions that saves them, mere words that form an incantation which they begin to chant. Their eyes glaze over. Their ears block out any other sound. Soon they are mystified, under a seductive spell. And as such they become religious slaves, "easy pickins" for unscrupulous leaders. But just try telling a spellbound people that theyíre under a spell! Of course it does no good at all! On the contrary it may do harm instead. 3. There are no classes in the kingdom of God. There is only one division. Those who have the blood of Christ are divided from those who do not. Right again! Although we who know this must treat very gently those who do not, who are still under the impression that the gospel is a propositional statement to which we give intellectual assent, instead of what it really is -- a living breathing experience and personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Even the term ìevangelical Christianî can be misunderstood. And ìweak babes in Christî can wield this phrase as a weapon, thinking it is the ìsword of truthî when it is not. Jesus Christ as a person is still ìthe truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.î He -- and not doctrine -- is the sword of truth. It is not up to us to ìconvict sinnersî and thus usher in the kingdom of God. That is the work of the Holy Spirit. Our work is to love each other -- and even our enemies -- and to overcome evil with good. Thank you, friend Timo, for giving me a clearer perspective on what this is all about. Iím sure now that your personal experience has given you great wisdom in Christ. Sincerely, Jude the obscure | ||
| Ernie |
I have been following this discussion for some time and I have to confess: it has been great! I am a former SDA pastor who thought it was possible to be an evangelical SDA, and at the same time to enjoy the fellowship of the rest of the church. It was really hard for me to discover that it was impossible. The reason? Adventism has been built upon a great deception, eg. the 1844 Investigative Judgement. Until the SDA Church does not come to term with its origins, with the historiography regarding the Sabbath, the Law and EGW, there is not room for evangelicals within the Church. It is painful to say that. Many good friends and many of our own relatives are still there, however the truth of the matter is that Adventism is a flawed theological system in urgent need of correction. I long to see my former brothers and sisters enjoying the freedom we have now. But they are captives within the Adventist walls. I pray they come soon to the discovery of God's salvation in Christ with no strings attached (Sabbath, dietary laws, EGW, etc.). God bless you all, Ernie | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Dear Cas, So youíre not an ex-Adventist now but an Absentventist! Well, there must be a reason! Would you care to share it? As for myself, yes, I go: To a discussion SS class in one of the largest SDA churches in NAD on Sabbath morning. And to a large Evangelical Protestant church on Sunday morning. Why? One reason is I love to worship God. Another reason, I find Iím able to witness to my SDA brothers and sisters in the discussion class of about 50 attendees. What differences do I see? Thatís a touchy question, for I love the SDA people despite everything. The biggest problem with my SDA brothers and sisters is their mystification. Mystified people donít know theyíre mystified. And so pointing out their inconsistencies to them, hammering them with Bible texts, applying ìiron logic,î and any other human device you could name simply doesnít work. Period. I have to realize that it is God, and not Jude, who is sovereign and ìin control.î My task is to live the gospel ìin the belly of the beast.î My task is not to bring them to their knees with ìmy great logic.î For my own logic (human wisdom) is nothing, but Christís logic (logos) is everything. Indeed I do understand your frustration at seeing ìthe lack of gospel and straight teaching from the Bible and that onlyî within Adventism. But that very frustration is the very thing you may need to work on, Cas. I know, because Iíve been at the place where you are now. I became frustrated when I gave them the power and authority to make me feel frustrated. I give that power and authority to Christ alone now. And so I donít get frustrated. Let Lonnie Mellashanko quote from the Clear Word Bible and Ellen G. White on the radio! What is that to you? Follow Jesus! He will lead you to a place where the air smells fresh and sweet and clean amid the flowers and the pure running brooks in the meadows in the mountains in spring. Thatís where Jesus loves to be. But heís lonely there when youíre not there to be with him. Thatís why he summons you there! Because heís lonely for you! How do I cope with teaching and sermons that I donít agree with? I go to Jesus in my mind. I read my Bible. I write my own thoughts, and sometimes prayers, on a note pad. You can argue on paper, then take your arguments to this web site and share them with us! I for one would love to hear your thoughts. One thing you can say for yourself is that youíre not mystified. Not anymore. That may be the reason why you find it ìtoo hurtful for me to even go but occasionally.î Thatís all right too. Not everybody is called to be a missionary to the Adventists. If youíre not ready for that, donít go. Find a church that lives Godís Word (I donít even like to use the word ìevangelicalî any more, since itís become too much of a buzzword) and attend there. You can also share that experience with us here. Finally, I agree with you that that SDA church is blessed to have Timo as a member. Heís a fellow missionary with me. God love you all the time, Cas, Jude the Obscure |
