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Jude the Obscure
Posted on Monday, December 06, 1999 - 4:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you, Ernie, for that. Where am I coming from? I'm concerned about our hearts. I think it's possible to have a set of words -- maybe even the definition of "evangelical" -- to use in an un-Christ-like way against others who also claim Christ as their Saviour but may not agree with us or may not have as much knowledge of the Scriptures as we have. A set of doctrines doth not a Christian make. For one thing, even though our doctrine may be very orthodox according to the leaders of the Evangelical movement, it is still imperfect. Even St. Paul did not claim perfection for his doctrine: He wrote, "Where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears." 1 Corinthians 12:8-10, NIV. So where do we get off if we think our poor, imcomplete knowledge is sufficient to exclude people who call themselves evangelical Adventists? Again Paul wrote, "And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love." 1 Corinthians 13:13. I see neither the word "knowledge" nor the word "prophecy" in verse 13. But I see by your post that you're not among those who want to exclude, who want, in effect, to usurp the role of the Holy Spirit. Your brother in Christ, Jude the Obscure.
Jude the Obsure
Posted on Monday, December 06, 1999 - 5:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lydell, thanks for answering. We do agree, then, that one must not take the identity "evangelical" above the identity of being in Christ. I think it is as wrong for evangelicals as for Baptists or Adventists to say, "We have the truth and they don't." We can get carried away with a "yea team" and "our side yes, their side no" mentality. If you are puzzled by my question, maybe this text will help: "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and the widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." James 1:27. My point is that we can have all the right and orthodox words, but if the Word -- a person, Jesus Christ, not a set of words, even if Bible words -- is not in our hearts, Jesus doesn't even know who we are. It's all right to have some fun at inconsistencies, but when it comes to excluding ANYONE from the body of Christ, we're treading on very thin ice. Hear Jesus: "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not everyone that saith unto me Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say unto me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me ye that work iniquity." Matthew 7:20-23. Christ's yoke may be easy and his burden light, but his way is no romp in the park. It is a straight and narrow way, and few there be that find it. It is a very serious sin to try to usurp the sole prerogative of the Holy Spirit. Yours in his name, Jude the Obscure.
Susan
Posted on Monday, December 06, 1999 - 5:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just found a great site that gives a nice history and definition of evangelicals. It's at
(hhtp//www.alliancenet.org/pub/articles/horton.WhatEvan.html ) hope it can help out a bit.
Jude, that Matt. verse you refered to was preceded in v.15 by Jesus' warning "watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly they are ferocious wolves." My understanding is that in v. 21,("not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven...") it's refering to those who are not believers but those who preach another Christ. Or perhaps those who use the powers of satan (in the name of Christ, like false prophets) to further their on agenda. Perhaps Ernie could shed some light? Just wondering.
In Christ alone!
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Monday, December 06, 1999 - 6:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Timo,

Thanks for your answer. I think I agree with you more than anyone else. I am genuinely distressed when I hear people trying to exclude other people from the kingdom of God. For one thing, I feel as though they are trying to exclude ME. For another thing, when I was an EA -- in the sense that I still thought one should keep the Sabbath AFTER one was saved -- if a Sunday-keeping evangelical had told me that I had excluded myself from the kingdom of God, I would have tended to get my back up. A Christ-driven missionary does not say, "You exclude yourself" to the very people he's trying to win.

I'm also beginning to see your point about the "shut door mentality" sticking to some ex-Adventists like glue. Some Adventists who "shut the door" on evangelicals while theyíre still in SDAdom, go on the ìshut the doorî on the Adventists once they become ex-Adventists. This seems a bit like being in the ditch on one side of the road and then crossing over to get into the ditch on the other side of the road. It also uncomfortably reminds of Christís warning in Matthew 23:13, NIV: ìWoe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in menís faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.î

Thank you for teaching me, Timo,

Jude
Susan
Posted on Monday, December 06, 1999 - 6:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jude, I sense a bit of tension. Frankly, I find it insulting that you would imply that some of us still have the shut door mentality. I'm involved in a Community Bible Study in my area. In my core group there are Baptists, Catholics, Presbyterians, etc. But we all believe in the essentials of Christiantiy. These are non-negotiables. I would never claim to shut someone out of the kingdom of God. That's absurd. God is soverign and it's His Word that excludes some. I just don't think it's right to claim to be evangelical if you don't adhere to all that it claims. Am I crazy, or does this indicate that I'm shuting a door because I think it's wrong to say, you're something that you're not? Also, I'm curious as to why I haven't received answers to some of my questions that have been directed to you and Timo? I've enjoyed discussions with all on this forum and I hope I haven't said anything to out-of-line. I just feel like perhaps there's a misunderstanding going on.
Just confused!
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Monday, December 06, 1999 - 7:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Susan, Wow! Am I getting a workout from all you sheep out there in cyberspace!

Yes, youíre absolutely right. Jesus' words about those who say ìLord, Lordî were indeed preceded by a warning against ìfalse prophetsî in ìsheepís clothing.î But note that these are false prophets who ìcome to you.î And, guess what, I face them all the time. An Adventist woman in her mid-eighties -- legalistic as they come, unhappy, angry, condemning Celebration Adventists all the time -- will challenge from time to time.

For example, she listens to the evangelical preacher Chuck Schwindall (spelling?) on the radio. Once she was condemning him for ìpreaching against the Sabbath! How can he be so stupid?î she railed. ìDoesnít he ever read history?î

I just smiled at her and asked, ìHave you read Samuele Bacchiocchiís book FROM SABBATH TO SUNDAY on the history of the Sabbath?î I knew, of course that she hadn't.

"Well, I, uh, uh,î she stammered. ìIíve read one of his easier books. I couldnít get through that one. It was too hard.î Well, the easier book of his she read was mush meant for spellbound Adventists like her.

I didnít even have to tell her I had read it, because she already knew I had. She had seen me carrying it around. (Someday Iím going to review it for this website, because of the multitude of fallacious arguments it contains.) But from that day to this sheís never said another word to me about the history of the Sabbath, or even the Sabbath, for that matter.

My point is, there is no need to tell a ìravenous wolf in sheepís clothingî that she has excluded herself from the kingdom of heaven. All one needs is to be secure in oneís own faith and knowledge. This is what Paul means, I think, when he enjoins us to ìput on the whole armor of God.î The wolves within Adventism never bother me at all. They know better.

What Jesus means here, I think, is that if your faith is weak, you may fall victim to ìa wolf in sheepís clothingî in the sense that you might be led astray and fall back into your old obsessive-compulsive ways or addictions, as Timo puts it. Nowhere does Jesus say to condemn the wolf or to fight the wolf. To the contrary Jesus says, ìDo not return evil for evil.î And, ìLove your enemies.î

And also, remember that Jesus' warning against ìferocious wolvesî was preceded by this: ìDo not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brotherís eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ëLet me take the speck out of your eye,í when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?î

Of course, Jesus was not saying never to judge. The Christian must make judgments all the time. Else Jesus would not have added, ìDo not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw away your pearls to pigs.î He means not to judge another hypocritically, i.e., with a plank in your own eye.

In other words, I have no right to judge an Adventist for having a ìshut-doorî mentality (thank you, Timo, for that term), if I myself have a ìshut-doorî mentality. Jesus says, ìBehold I stand at the door and knock.î It is Jesus acting through his Holy Spirit alone who can open or shut the door to the kingdom of heaven.

Be glad, Susan, because Jesus' warning about judging others hypocritically was meant to help us and not to hurt us. Because he also says, If you DO NOT JUDGE, YOU WILL NOT BE JUDGED. What a great way to avoid being judged!

Well I guess Iíve rambled on long enough for one night.

Remember, the kingdom of God is within you (Luke 17:20),

Jude

Ps. Yes, "Hey Jude" is an old Beatles song, or maybe just one of the Beatles sang it solo. I love it, for it reminds me of my own son when he was a baby. Makes me cry when I hear it.
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Monday, December 06, 1999 - 8:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Susan,

Please forgive me. I certainly didnít mean to imply that you, or any other particular person, were hypocritically judging evangelical Adventists. I donít know you well enough to think that thatís what youíre doing. And I certainly accept you as a Christian. As Iíve said before on this website, Iím not even comfortable with the term ìevangelicalî as a modifier of ìChristian.î I donít think there should be different brands. Paul speaks powerfully against such a practice in 1 Corinthians 1.

I would say, though, that I myself would not want to say, You think ìyou're something that you're not,î to anybody, because for me to do that I would have to judge that personís spiritual status before God. But you, Susan, whom I respect and love in Christ, may mean something entirely different, probably having to do with belief systems, which we are free to judge. But thatís not for me to say either, because I'm not you.

Iím just a pilgrim here, walking around in the kingdom of God (Luke 17:20).

If you would repeat the questions I didnít answer, Iíd be glad to try.

In Christ alone too, Susan,

Jude

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