| Author | Message | ||
| Ken |
Max: Is this verse also speaking of HIS (or as Max has so conveniently substituted his own intreption to mean Jesus). Or the only Commandments of God that I'm aware of. Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Revelation14:12 So just what are the Commandments of God? If it's like you say the 10 Commandments +603 ordnances you'd better start keeping them. As for me I'll continue to keep the Commandments of God (all Ten and only Ten). Following Jesus Ken | ||
| Max |
Friend Ken, Are you admitting that you believe Jesus is NOT God? Whoa! If so, little did I realize you'd admit it so openly! Doesn't it say somewhere in Scripture, "By thine own mouth shalt thou be justified and by thine own mouth shalt thou be condemned"? Wow! Say it isn't so, Ken! Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Dear Ken, You quoted, ^^Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:12.^^ The same is true here as is true of everywhere else in John's writings. Two exegetical facts emerge -- in John the Greek word for: 1. "commandments" always refers to our God Jesus Christ's commandments and never to the law of Moses. 2. "law" always refers to the law of Moses and never to our God Jesus Christ's commandments. If you don't believe me, Ken, ask some of your SDA Greek scholars. They abound on SDA college and university campuses. And I'm sure they'd be happy to back me on this point. Therefore, Revelation 14:12 is CORRECTLY paraphrased from Greek into English as, ^^Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep both THE COMMANDMENTS AND THE FAITH of Jesus Christ our God.^^ And this in clear distinction to keeping the Ten Commandments. Nowhere does John write that we must keep the Ten Commandments. You're going to have to look elsewhere for your proof texts, Ken. John, the disciple whom Jesus loved, is all sewed up for Jesus Christ our God as both the fulfillment and the replacement of the entire law of Moses, including the Ten Commandments. Max of the Cross | ||
| Maryann |
Broooo Ken, I really have a question. DO YOU EVEN READ WHAT THESE PEOPLE POST? People like Max, Bill, Lari, Jtree? My goodness! How much clearer can it be! Sis.....Maryann | ||
| Max |
Dear friend Ken, You wrote, ^^So just what are the Commandments of God? If it's like you say the 10 Commandments +603 ordnances you'd better start keeping them. As for me I'll continue to keep the Commandments of God (all Ten and only Ten).^^ You'll be interested to know that in the New Testament the "the Commandments of God" are always the sayings of Christ, such as in the Sermon on Mt. Blessings, as opposed to Mt. Sinai. In the Old Testament "the Commandments of God" are also the sayings of the (pre-Christmas) Christ, written in the case of the Ten Commandments with his own finger on two tables of stone. Yet these Ten were only a shadow pointing to the clearer and more perfect sayings of the Christ. Hear Hebrews 1:1-3a (CEV): ^^Long ago in many ways and at many times God's prophets spoke his message to our ancestors. But now at last, God sent his Son to bring his message to us. God created the universe by his Son, and everything will someday belong to the Son. God's Son has all the brightness of God's own glory and is like him in every way. By his own mighty word, he holds the universe together.^^ The Ten Commandments were only one of the ways by which God's prophets spoke his message to the Hebrew ancestors. The Ten Commandments, as wonderful as they were, do NOT retain "all the brightness of God's own glory." The Ten Commandments were imperfect and inferior to the perfect and superior sayings of the Christ who at that time (Sinai) was still yet to come as the Messiah. The Ten were only a shadow of the real Commandments (Christ's) and were scheduled to "vanish" away as Jeremiah prophesied before the awful coming of our God to earth (Emanuel). Nor were they "like him [God] in every way," but only dimly and distantly "like him." And so I am keeping the Commandments of God, as you say, Ken. Only "all Ten and only Ten" have nothing to do with them any more since their fulfillment and replacement is here! Max of the Cross | ||
| Maryann |
Ohhhh Ken, You said: So just what are the Commandments of God? If it's like you say the 10 Commandments +603 ordnances you'd better start keeping them. You really shouldn't call the 603 ordinances without knowing what they are. Check a couple of these out: 1. The obligation for humans to procreate (Gen. 1:28): "And God said to them: Be fertile and increase, fill the earth and master it..." Is that an ordinance? 46. The specific rights of a wife(Exodus 21:9): "He must not with-hold...her food, her clothing, or her conjugal rights." Is that an ordinace? 77. The prohibition against perverting testimony (Exodus 23:2): "You shall not give perverse testimony in a trial so as to pervert it in favor of the mighty..." Is that an ordinance? 188-203. Prohibition against incest etc is covered in Lev.18. How about that for an ordinance? 517-518. The prohabitions against prophesying falsely in God's name and against prophesying in the names of idols (Deut. 18:20): "But any prophet who presumes to speak in My name an oracle that I did not command him to utter, or who speaks in the names of other gods-that prophet shall die." Is that an ordinace? Well, come to think of it, SDA's figure that must have been an ordinace that got done away with as they believe in a "false prophet." Wow, just think of the false stuff she put out! Maryann | ||
| Max |
Hey, Ken Dude! What about the 21 Old Testament commandments Maryann either quoted for you or referred you to? Do you keep them? | ||
| Max |
Yo Keeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen! A lady has asked you a question! Are you going to behave as a gentleman and answer her? Or will it be said of you as you said of Patti, KEN WILL NOT OR CANNOT ANSWER A QUESTION ON FAFF. PLEASE HELP HIM! | ||
| Max |
Ken? | ||
| Max |
Sigh. | ||
| Max |
Sorry, Maryann, Couldn't raise Ken. If he's in Michigan, then we here in California have 3 hours on him. So he may have collapsed from exhaustion. No rest for the weary, don't you know. He needs help. Wonder why he doesn't call for reinforcements, such as all those SDA college and university profs. Oh well, with apologies to Scarlett O'Hara, maybe he'll think about your question tomorrow. But don't bet the farm. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Max 'Ol Cross Bud, How about a really funny note. We went to big Bear today to Clive's brother's house on the lake. We figured that canoeing was a reasonable option! But just in case of accident, we took complete sets of clothes! Well, the wind was up and and small white caps were breaking. Melissa, the expert said, "NO WAY!" Tom got the brother to go out AND.......:):):) wow what a wreck! They got sideways and a wave dumped them over;-))))))) It's been a long time since I saw anyone as cold as them. Fortunately they were only a couple hundred feet out but that seemed like a mile because they had to bring the canoe and paddles in while swimming;-) he he he! | ||
| Joni |
Max, As I was drifting off to sleep last night, I thought of the time when Jesus said to wipe the dirt from your feet and move on. I think it is time to move on. When the veil of Moses remains on the eyes, what good is it to continue. I think now is the time for prayer. (not that I am trying to tell you what to do.) Maryann, I was raised in S. Ca. (San Dimas) and we had a cabin in Big Bear. I saw a bear there when I was younger, he scared me. Later we, my husband and I, lived in Alta Loma (Rancho Cucamonga) and we went up skiing. We moved to Mi. in 89, I miss the mts. and wonder what I am doing in the east. I would like to move back there!!!!!!!!!!! Joni | ||
| Darrell |
Here are a few excerpts from 1 John which give clues about which commandments John is referring to: 2:7 Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard. 2:8 On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining. 2:9 The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now. 2:10 The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him. 2:11 But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes. 3:23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. 3:24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 4:21 And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also. | ||
| Max |
Hi Joni, What should I do to "move on" when I believe God has been using me to sharpen the contrast between Adventism and real Christianity? I furthermore believe that God is using Ken as much as he is using me, and for the same reason: to sharpen the contrast between Adventism and real Christianity. This is something I must do, regardless of whether or not Ken challenges me, whether or not he gets the points, whether or not he keeps asking the same question and not hearing the same answer over and over. I guess the question is, Move on to what? Max of the Cross | ||
| Joni |
Move on to Jesus???????????????????????????? "And as Moses Lifted up the serpent in the wildernes, even so must the Son Of Man be lifted up that whoever believes may in Him have eternal life" Jn.313-14 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself" Jn. 12:32 Nicodemus was a teacher of Israel and He did not understand about being born again, and unless you are born again you cannot see the kingdom of God. Being born again seems to be the first thing to establish???????????? Is Ken born again? Just some thoughts. I know you are being used. You have been used in my life and in many others. God bless you! Joni | ||
| Ken |
Hi Max: I see no difference between SDA 's you, me, Maryann, Bill, Jtree etc. We are all sinners saved by the blood of Jesus. There is nothing we can do without Jesus. Following Jesus Ken | ||
| Max |
Thanks Joni, God is using you too here! Very powerfully too, I might add. | ||
| Max |
And thank you too Ken, I think I was losing sight of that. God continue to bless you. | ||
| Max |
Darrell, Nice to hear from you again. Thanks for the texts from John's first letter. 1 John 2:7. Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard. 2:8 On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining. 2:9 The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now. 2:10 The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him. 2:11 But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes. 3:23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. 3:24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 4:21 And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also. To me these chapters illustrate the method Christ used throughout his ministry: He took something from the Scriptures, the Old Testament, and improved on it. In this case the new commandments improved on the old. Other cases from the New Testament: * Eternal Sabbath rest from the works of the law in Jesus Christ is superior to the 24-hour weekly, monthly, and yearly rests from work under the old covenant (Hebrews 3&4). * Circumcision of the heart is superior to circumcision of the flesh. * Words written on the fleshy tablets of the heart are superior to words written on the stony tablets of Mt. Sinai. * Jesus Christ as God on earth (Emmanuel) is superior to any angel or archangel, such as Michael, on earth. What thinkest thou, Darrell? |
