| Author | Message | ||
| Susan |
Jude, Sorry I didn't address my questions to you specifically on the 6th. They were, "if you are an evangelical, how could you continue to belong to a church that has ties to a false prophet? and If you go from being sda to being evangelical, why hang on to anything associated with the cultic sda denomination?" I don't get it??? Colleen, thanks for your wonderful post yesterday! You have a such a great way of conveying what you want to say. Something I really need to work on. Timo, good points on the need for unity in the body of Christ. I think unity among believers is extremely important. But I have to stand firm in my belief that it's crucial to have unity with those who follow the same Christ as I do. I can't have spiritual unity with those who preach another gospel. Yes, I can love them and be concerned for them. But I'm not connected to them in the same way as I am to fellow brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus. Sorry to be so hard-headed! Allenette, great to hear from you again. I agree with so much of what you had to say. Thanks for your insight. Oh by the way, I've been keeping you in my prayers. Love in Christ, Susan | ||
| Timo K. |
Susan, I agree that the Unity has to be only among the members of those who have the same Christ. The Blood of Christ is the basis of the Unity and the Holy Spirit makes the Unity real for us. This is not a doctrinal unity, but those who have not accepted the Blood of Christ are not unified by the Spirit either. This is not denominational unity either, this is spiritual unity. (does my english make sence? I think that sometimes I cannot find the right sentenses and words. With "in likeness of adventism", I do not mean as an adventist, I mean the same as Room.8:3 in the sence that we are like adventist, baptist, lutheran. But we are not in reality adventist, baptist or lutheran, we are THE BODY OF CHRIST, and that's all.) timo | ||
| Allenette |
Well, Hey Jude...oops :-) I thank you for your gentle thoughts :-) Your friend echoes some of my theories FWTW :-)However, it is still (most likely unintentional)condescending to assume that because we read the file on our ancestor's faults, as something WE now should still be ashamed of eons later and still holding our heads down and apologizing for our supposed first father and mother...BTW I dont think the Adam and Eve story holds water, but..if it DID and we must accept that God is our father figure, I, (being a mother) would NEVER have treated Adam and Eve like the Genesis story says the Creator did (our only then father figure supposedly)...any parents out there want to reply? (My answer would be that I would have HAD to give them another chance...they were so new to their existence etc etc) Just curious and maybe I should have started a new thread. | ||
| Jude the Obsure |
Susan, Iím so glad you didnít show anger at me. One of my problems is feeling I have to ìbe rightî and then feeling ìwrongî if someone happens to disagree with me. Believe me, Iím working really hard on that! Iím learning that I can be ìright in Christî (be right factually but not cram the facts down someone elseís throat) or ìwrong in Christî (be factually wrong but know that Iím accepted and loved anyway). Jesus is the Good Shepherd who leads us all gently. Now to your questions: If you are an evangelical, how could you continue to belong to a church that has ties to a false prophet? And, If you go from being SDA to being evangelical, why hang on to anything associated with the cultic SDA denomination? Answer: I donít consider myself an Evangelical. I take 1 Corinthians 1:10-13 seriously: ìI appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers, some from Chloeís household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, ëI follow Paulí; another, 'I follow Apollos'; another, 'I follow Cephas [Peter]'; still another, 'I follow Christ.' Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?î In other words, I donít claim to be an ìEvangelicalî with a capital E. Specifically, I do not claim to be a member of the current religious movement in this country that calls itself Evangelical. I donít judge anybody who does, though. I do claim ìevangelicalî without the capital E, meaning, ìone who announces the gospel [glad tidings] to others.î In fact, I donít personally know any SDA member today who specifically calls himself or herself ìEvangelicalî with a capital E and who also claims to be part of the Evangelical movement. There may be some, maybe a large number; itís just that Iím not personally aware of any. Truth be known, I donít really care. Furthermore, I donít know for sure whether or not my name has been removed from the books. Nobody has told me that it has been. I wrote a letter about 15 years ago, asking to transfer my membership to the Presbyterian Church, but got no response. Again, truth be known, after having read 1 Corinthians 1 and many similar texts, I no longer care. I attend a very special Sabbath School discussion class that is so ìfar outî that I doubt youíd believe it. On Friday night I worship with FAF. On Sunday morning I worship with friends at a large Evangelical church, and love everything about my experience there. Nor do I call EGW a ìfalse prophet,î although I have no quarrel with those who do. Iím very active in exposing her factual errors, though. Two examples: (1) She said people who wear wigs go insane. (2) She said volcano eruptions are caused by coal and oil burning deep underground. Iím also active in exposing her spiritual errors: Two examples: (1) She said in the name of the Lord that the door to salvation was shut and she never acknowledged her error, although she did contradict it later. (2) She claimed that certain races, such as the Hottentots, were amalgamations between humans and animals, and that amalgamation (producing offspring with animals) was the ìworstî of sins in Godís eyes. Whether or not bestiality is the ìworstî of sins, she showed herself to be the worst kind of racist in making those kinds of prophesies. God has called me to be a missionary to the Adventist people. Perhaps ìspiritual spyî would be a more accurate term. It seems to me that if you disagree with what Iím doing, you also have to disagree with what the two spies that Rahab protected (Joshua 2, 6; Hebrews 11:31; James 2:25) were doing. Bottom line: I consider myself to be a Christian, period, nothing added, nothing taken away, no subtle shades of meaning, no nuances, nothing. For that reason I may never again call myself by any other name, e.g., Baptist, Catholic, Methodist, Evangelical, Fundamentalist, Conservative, Liberal ñ although I have no quarrel with those who feel differently. For I truly believe that in Christ ìthere is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.î Colossians 3:11. I hope Iíve answered your questions adequately, Susan. Iím not at liberty to tell you everything, of course, but I hope Iíve given you enough of a glimpse, because you asked, and because you are a child of God. May you walk the streets of gold every day of your life, Jude | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Allanette, I'm working on an answer for you. Meanwhile, what does the acronym FWTW stand for? I'm such a novice to discussion groups I don't know. --Jude | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Allenette: You wrote, ìBecause we read the file on our ancestor's faults, as something WE now should still be ashamed of eons later and still holding our heads down and apologizing for our supposed first father and mother.î Agreed. We donít have to be ashamed of or apologize for what Adam and Eve did. I donít read anything like that in Scripture. All we need to be concerned about is our own sin. Consider what SDAs would consider a most dreadful sin and ìtransgression of the lawî: Eating swineís flesh! Is eating pork chops a sin? Hear Paul in Romans 14:19-23, NIV: ìLet us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes some else to stumble. It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall. ìSo whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.î So, is eating pork chops a sin? It depends on your situation. * The ìnoî situation. If youíre by yourself or with others who donít disapprove, no, itís not. ìAll food is clean,î says Paul, echoing Mark 7:19, NIV: ìJesus declared all foods clean.î * The ìyesî situation. If youíre with someone who would ìstumbleî because you were eating it, then, yes, it is. ìDo not destroy the work of God for the sake of food.î ìIt is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes some else to stumble.î You see, the New Testament redefines sin just as it redefines the Sabbath, circumcision, animal sacrifice, the temple services (sanctuary doctrine and animal sacrifice). Everything in the Old Testament points to Jesus in some way. Sin is no exception: God ìmade [Jesus] who had no sin to be sin for us.î 2 Corinthians 5:21, NIV. That act of God freed us from the written form of the law (Torah, the first five books of the Bible, including the 10 Commandments), which he canceled and nailed to the cross (Colossians 2:14). So sin is no longer an ìI-itî thing. It is an ìI-thouî thing. You, Allenette are the ìI,î the Law of Moses is the ìit.î And the other person with Christ in him/her is the ìthou.î For, ìInasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.î Matthew 25:40, KJV. Under the new covenant sin is no longer impersonal (merely the transgression of the law), but highly personal. Sin is relational. There is no sin in eating pork per se, but eating it in front of someone freshly saved from Seventh-day Adventism so that this person is horrified and goes back to SDAism, that would most definitely be a sin, because you would be causing this person to stumble, a person for whom Christ died, a person in whom Christ lives. Trouble is, we sin like this all the time, unintentionally as well as intentionally. THIS is the sin for which we must ask daily forgiveness, NOT the NON-SIN of eating pork. This is the sin we must strive to overcome, not to earn salvation, but because salvation is already in our possession, because the kingdom of God is already here within us (Luke 17:21), because Christ (Emanuel) is within both us and the other individual. And so, yes, I would agree again: As a loving parent, you would give Adam and Eve another chance. So would I. So did God. But the way he chose to do so was to send his only begotten Son, Jesus Christ. Adam and Eve died in faith of their second chance, because ìwithout faith it is impossible to please him.î Hebrews 11:6, KJV. Great talking with you Allenette. Hope to do so again. In Godís mystery, Jude | ||
| Timo K. |
Jude and some-one else has mentioned (maybe Ernie) Evangelical with a capital letter, and then evangelical with a small letter. Can anyone answer what is the difference? I have an idea but like to make sure. Thanks. timo |
