Archive through July 13, 2000 Log Out | Topics | Search
Moderators | Edit Profile

Former Adventist Fellowship Forum » ARCHIVED DISCUSSIONS 1 » Dear Adventist Friend: DO YOU KNOW WHO THE 144,000 ARE? » Archive through July 13, 2000 « Previous Next »

Author Message
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Monday, May 22, 2000 - 4:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Do you know them only as a subject for cracking jokes?
Steve
Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2000 - 10:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have not been wanting to even look at Revelation. I must admit, my feeling for that, and Daniel, are pretty tainted. But here's my two-cents worth on the 144,000.

When John saw the 144,000, he described them as the number of them that were sealed. He then goes on to number those from each tribe of Israel. This is in Rev. 7:4-8. Then John looked, ". . . and BEHOLD, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues . . ."

Could it be that these 144,000 (possibly symbolic in number) were only those sealed from "Israel"? Because in the very next breath, John saw a great multitude that no one could count.

I think we have missed the fact that John also saw that great multitute when he saw the 144,000. Perhaps they were not for us to separate the way we typically do. I dunno. Well, with inflation, that's about 2 cents worth.
Jude the Obsdure
Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2000 - 3:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Steve,

I do identify with your not "wanting to even look at Revelation" very much. In fact only recently I forced myself to look at it. I read particularly Revelation 14 where the SDA fortress is located. And from that re-reading, without my SDA-colored eyeglasses on, found the same mis-handling and abuse of Scripture that I found in Colossians, Galatians, Hebrews, and Romans -- to name a few.

Also, my decision to "read anew anyway" inspired me to start this "Dear Adventist Friend" series of potential threads.

Haven't had many SDA takers or customers yet, though. Do you think I will?

Jude
Steve
Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2000 - 7:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh, yeah. I think folks are looking. Probably studying, to come up with some kind of reasoning for various positions. Of course, you know I'll probably react to many of them in time. But I need to do my studying as well.

It's an interesting set of threads that hit at the heart of all those things that we hold (held) sacred. Give us time -- I'm stewing on a couple of them right now, but will post after I have time to think about them.
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2000 - 11:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great, Steve!

When the tsunami hits, as I'm thinking it will, FAF will need you in a very critical way.

Jude
Wendy Forsyth
Posted on Monday, June 26, 2000 - 11:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Max,
Full Adventist,4th gen., still holding on even though it is shaking like a 9.7. Will still hold on to the truth no matter what winds blow. Know the church has many problems, not going to throw that baby out. Is that good enough for you? I'm on this post now and you can count on me to represent a few opposing viewpoints. I feel that the Adventist have part of it, and you and others that preach the New Covenant have part of it, and nobody is coming full-circle and realizing that you need both concepts fused together to get it right.Looking forward to more.
Wendy
Max
Posted on Monday, June 26, 2000 - 12:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi, Windy,

Nice to have you aboard. Only one question: who/what is "that baby" that you are not going to throw out?

Real grace alone,

Max
Cindy
Posted on Monday, June 26, 2000 - 5:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wendy,
Welcome! Glad you are here!
I hope you find this site a place of grace and freedom, a place to question, comment, and express yourself... We are ALL precious in God's sight!(and, hopefully, in each other's eyes too!)

A Debtor to His Mercy and Grace Always,
Cindy
Steve
Posted on Monday, June 26, 2000 - 6:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Wendy,

I'm also glad you're here.

At first, I thought you were a "Wendy" I knew in Albuquerque, New Mexico. But she wasn't a 4th Gen. SDA.

When I talked with me old pastor from Albuquerque, he said that he just wanted me to make sure I didn't "throw out the baby with the bathwater." I questioned him on what the baby was. Via mentioning the Worldwide Church of God, he said that they threw out the Law, and he hoped that I wouldn't do the same.

The baby is equivalent to the Law to that SDA pastor.

I would also like to know what the baby is to you. In understanding our "babies" (if I can use the term that way) I think a lot can be said of where our relationship is with God.

God Bless,

Steve
Wendy Forsyth
Posted on Monday, June 26, 2000 - 7:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Max
Posted on Monday, June 26, 2000 - 8:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Wendy,

I knew it! I knew it! "The baby" = "the church"! I'm laughing right now. You're such a dear soul!

Next question is multiple choice: What is "the church"?

Answer No. 1: The members of the worldwide SDA denomination.

Answer No. 2: Those people worldwide who accept the 27 points of fundamental belief.

Answer No. 3: The body of Christ = the citizens of the kingdom of heaven/God that is within and among us all (Luke 17:20-21).

Answer No. 4: Something else which may be explained as follows:

Knowing your heart is "there," Wendy,

Jude the Obscure = Max Gordon Phillips
renie
Posted on Monday, June 26, 2000 - 8:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Back to the 144,000......I have always wondered what would happen to the 144,001'th person. Lost, I guess! ! !

renie
longfellow
Max
Posted on Monday, June 26, 2000 - 8:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mathematically speaking, can 144,000 individuals stand in a perfect square as Ellen G. White predicted? Be careful!
Darrell
Posted on Monday, July 03, 2000 - 7:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The last time I studied Revelation I was struck by the similiarity between John's description of the 144,000 and his description of the Great Multitude. Compare Rev 14:4,5 with Rev 7:9,13-17. I am not sure what it all means, but I found the resemblance interesting.

The 144,000 keep themselves pure.
The Great Multitude are dressed in white.
The 144,000 follow the lamb wherever he goes.
The Great Multitude are before the throne and serve God day and night.
The 144,000 are purchased from among men.
The Great Multitude are from every nation, etc.
The 144,000 are blameless.
The Great Multitude have washed their robes in the blood of the lamb.

The main difference I see is that it says the 144,000 are 12,000 from each tribe of Israel, while the Great Multitude are from all the nations.
Bob
Posted on Monday, July 03, 2000 - 11:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Darrell, I too have been intrigued by the similarities between the 144,000 and the Great Multitude. Here is something to consider:
In Rev. 7:4, John says:

"And I HEARD the number. . .one hundred forty-four thousand. . ."

Then, after reporeporting the numbers of each tribe that he says he HEARD, John goes on in verse 9 and says:

"After these things I LOOKED and behold, a great multitude, which no one could count. . ."

I would be interested in what you and others think about this justaposition of the verb forms "I HEARD" and "I LOOKED."

Might it not be that John is describing the SAME group, first that he only heard being numbered, then that he actually saw in his vision?
Jtree
Posted on Tuesday, July 04, 2000 - 4:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"The Great Multitude are dressed in white."

Egad's..I'm confused. Ezekiel tells me not to be Whitewashed, now I have to dressed in white.

What to do?
Breezy
Posted on Wednesday, July 05, 2000 - 7:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear dear Max,
Sorry I didn't get back sooner but I haven't had a password. I am not one of those Adventist types that think that you are only a member of Christ's "Church" if you are an Adventist. I believe that Christ has His people in all churches and even not in churches. Christ has His requirements for membership in His Church, and not you nor I can discern who does or doesn't have them. I am sure we may be surprised to see who shares the wedding supper with Christ. You may even see some Adventists(ooh My!). I believe that the heaven that you speak of us having now is an archetype of the Heaven that is to come. It does not mean that just because one exists now, there is nothing more to come in the future. Now quit chuckling and get a hold of yourself. :)

Take care,
Wendy
Susan
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2000 - 12:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Steve, I agree with the idea that the number 144,000 is symbolic whether it's refering to the Jews or all believers. That's just my take.

Wendy, I've been away for awhile. I'm not sure we've meet. I'm 4th generation also. I've been out of Adventism for about 10 years. Anyway, glad you're here! One thought about the prophecy in Adventism coming true. Could it be that Satan can help people's(EGW) predictions to come true? I say YES! He's a master at deception and he'd do anything to keep people's focus off of JESUS CHRIST. It's already been proven that EGW/Adventism is tainted by prophecies that were false. If she were truly a prophet of God, wouldn't ALL of her prophecies come to pass? Is God only right some of the time?
Personally, I'm not afraid of end times events. My assurance rests at the foot of the cross.
From one of the BEST hymns ever written, "nothing in my hands I bring, simply to thy cross I cling."
Emptyhanded and clinging, Susan
Breezy
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2000 - 11:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Susan!
I'm pretty new here so we haven't met before. I agree certainly that Satan could do that if anyone could. As far as EGW goes, I believe that God is infallible, the prophet is fallible. I see it as entirely possible that God did use her initially and through pride and manipulations of relatives, she began to think that God was using her in all things. And perhaps he wasn't. So I think that her ratio of fail/success leans more toward success and her failures were perhaps ego getting out of hand. I look forward to learning more about you.
Still holding on!
Wendy
Colleentinker
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2000 - 12:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi, Wendy! I have a friend who said once, "I believe that Satan tipped his hand in Adventist doctrines."

A true prophet of God can't be both a prophet of God and a false prophet. Satan, of course, is not bound by time as we are, and he knows what he plans to do in the future. He also knows what the Bible says. It wouldn't be hard for him to send false prophecies that sound plausible to someone who wasn't committed to truth!

Colleen
Breezy
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2000 - 11:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen,
There are bilblical cases of fallen prophets. Not everyone who was used of God stayed true. I also believe that Satan is bound by time. He is confined to this planet and the rules of this planet. The laws of physics remain constant for all, Satan included, only God is outside the realm of physics because he constructed all. I believe he can however send false impressions and images. I won't deny the possibility that he gave Ellen her visions. I just don't think that's true. Ellen's basic ideas weren't bad, just were missing the final ingredient of grace. She didn't have that concept down very well. She and others that have pushed her teachings just make it such work to be saved, and that makes Christ a burden not a joy. Well, I have five kids here and am unable to keep my train of thought. Will try more later when I am alone.
Wendy
Lydell
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2000 - 4:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wendy, I would have to disagree with you on the idea that her basic ideas weren't bad. Some of them were downright terrible: declaring that satan is the one who carries our sins, that the atonement for our sins wasn't completed at the cross, that our sins aren't wiped out but rather transferred to the sanctuary, that we musn't say that we are saved, that obeying the commandments is the only way to earn God's favor, that our diet can condemn us before God, that the seal of God is not the Holy Spirit but keeping the sabbath, that satan can answer prayers directed to God. All these things are biblicaly wrong. And all take away from the diety of Christ really, and pervert what the scriptures teach about salvation.

If it were a matter of a prediction here and there not coming to pass, I would agree with you that it was just a matter of the human being fallability. But, what a prophet says MUST agree with the scriptures, and that is where EGW fails the test of a true prophet of God.
Steve
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2000 - 5:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In regards to someone's predictions coming true, I have found Deuteronomy 13:1-10 to be quite enlightening. I believe I posted a comment about that passage a few months ago, but will quote a brief part here. From the Updated NASB,

1 If a prophet or dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, 'Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,' 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

To me, it's interesting that even God admits that prophets will arise who will dream and prophesy about things that WILL come true. Just because something comes true is not an indication of whether that is a true or false prophet.

The test comes in what that prophet or dreamer is telling about God. Does that prophet's picture of God match up with what God has revealed about Himself? If not, then we are not to listen to that prophet (verse 10 says we are to stone that prophet!)

Even if EGW prophesied true events, we are not to look at those events. We are to test her teachings about God. That's where the real test lies.

Steve
Cindy
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2000 - 9:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lydell and Steve,
Yes, yes! to your posts! We need to test EGW's writings by how she speaks of God, how does she protray Him consistently? How does she understand and explain the free gift of Grace?

I have found so much "doublespeak' in her writings! She says one thing at one time and another at a different time.

She says that the Bible Alone is all we need; and that she is the 'lesser light' leading to the 'greater light'. And that if we had studied the Bible we wouldn't have needed the lesser light... But then, she says one of the last deceptions will be to make of none effect her writings... What a threat if you question her testimonies!

Whose 'authority' do we then take when we see areas (like Lydell posted) where she has definitely taken a different position than that of Scripture? And the church's position is that she got these messages from GOD! She's not presented as just an inspiring Christian writer whom you may or may not agree with on everything...

JESUS really is sufficient; He really is enough! Like someone posted here once, do we need a flashlight to find the sun? Do we need EGW to find The Son!?

Grace Always,
Cindy
Breezy
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2000 - 11:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Is it possible that people who wanted to slant people's perception of EGW, changed or added to her writings to give them their own interpretation? Not that she was inconsistent. Did she really say that her testimonies shouldn't be questioned? Or did someone add that in? Maybe the things she wrote that were consistent are hers and the ones that aren't, Willy or James or some later person wrote.
Cindy
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2000 - 6:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Breezy/Wendy, Perhaps that could be... (EGW's writings being forged). But that's a scary thought; how in the world could we know the difference? And wouldn't GOD be able to keep this error from His specific visions and testimonies?

I don't have any SOP books left to look up quotes now (had two copies of each book at one time, also all her 'Review and Herald' articles plus various other ('Signs'?). I know you can buy the whole thing now for your computer which I've thought of doing...but don't want to lay out the money for that! I'm a little weary of her myself, but I realize the true facts of her writings continually need to be told.

If you have Testimonies Vol. 5, please read pages 672-683 and see what YOU think about what she said. If you don't have this book, you can go to some of the archived posts here and pull up some quotes. Lynn W. has posted some very interesting ones. (Where are you, Lynn? Miss your comments!)

These can be found at:
July 31,99 under 'How can it be?'
Aug.26,99 under 'Is EGW a false prophet?'
Feb. 14,00 under 'The Law, what does it mean?'

Plus, Bruce just posted some more 'gems' on the current thread (July 7, 'Heresies you've been taught in the S.D.A. church'.

Blessings to you, Wendy. I pray that His Holy Spirit will be with ALL of us here as we seek truth.

And 'Truth' has a name!! It is Jesus Christ... "Jesus answered, 'I am the Way, and the Truth and the Life..." John 14:6

I like this from 2 Corinthians 4:1-6:

"Therefore, since through God's mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways, we do not use deception, not do we distort the word of God."

"On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, to that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

"For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who said, 'Let light shine out of darkness, made his light shine in our heart to GIVE US THE LIGHT OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE GLORY OF GOD IN THE FACE OF CHRIST."

In debt to His mercy,
Cindy
Cindy
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2000 - 7:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

P.S. The one archived post of Lynn's is actually dated Aug. 23, '99... There is a lot of interesting information (and inspiring posts from contributers!) in these 'archives'; and the titles to the posts don't always match the topics discussed in them! Click on the Tree View to see it all...

Grace always,
Cindy
Djconklin
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2000 - 8:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Breezy,

You are absolutely correct that some people have distorted what EGW said--either intentionally or in the heat of the moment. For instance, on one Catholic web site it is claimed that EGW was a false prophet because some of her prophecies didn't come true and he proceeds to give four examples. Which when you take the time and effort to check out for yourself you find that in one case she didn't make a prophecy at all (kinda hard for it to come true now isn't it--nothing like stacking the deck!) and in two othercases he ignored the context! I didn't even bother checking the fourth because I was so disgusted at the games this guy was playing. On some other web sites I have seen it claimed that EGW said that England was going to enter into the American Civil War (which since I'm a Civil War buff I quickly checked out); it turns out that she was saying that _if_ England entered it would be for her own interests (no surprise there) not that she definitely would. The interesting thing is that you couldn't contact all of them to let them know that they had it wrong because they had no link to email them--and whether or not the others retracted and admitted their error I don't know. I find those kind of double-speaking mind-games to be very disgusting and certainly not the mark of either sound moral character or mental fitness. There's way too much anti-SDA/EGW propaganda floating around so you have to be very careful about who you listen to. You might get tricked into thinking there must be something to it otherwise they wouldn't all be saying the same thing. That's one reason why it's very important to listen to more than one side and check the evidence for yourself and always ask God to be your guide. He hasn't let me down yet. And every so often He gives me insights that I normally wouldn't have had if I hadn't done the hard work first--I believe (you know who) said something like that.
Susan
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2000 - 9:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Does anyone else out there find it interesting, how people in cults jump to defend their prophets? It doesn't matter if it's Joseph Smith,Mary Baker Eddy, EGW or David Koresh. They all have a "remanant" mentality, a prophet with suppossed divine authority and a persecution preoccupation. Through my research these are just some of the many things they all have in common.
Ever notice that what it all boils down to, is a way to get the focus off of Christ! Satan uses many subtle ways to deceive (like, prophets with a little truth so that their unbilical teachings aren't as obvious), he really wants the attention to be off of Jesus Christ.
"My hope is built on nothing less, than Jesus blood and righteousness"!!!
Lydell
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2000 - 9:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Instead of...Daniel 8:14 referring to the purifying of the earth, it was now plain that it pointed to the closing work of our High Priest in heaven, the finishing of the atonement, and the preparing of the people to abide the day of His coming." Testimonies, vol. 1, p.58
"Jesus entered the most holy of the heavenly (sanctuary), at the end of the 2300 days of Daniel 8, in 1844, to make a final atonement for all who could be benefited by His mediation." Early Writings, p.253.

Compare those to the Bible: "The point of what we are saying is this; We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by man." Hebrews 8:1,2 written in 60 AD
"Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation." Romans 5:11

"Those who accept the Saviour, however sincere their conversion, should never be taught to say or feel that they are saved. ...Those who accept Christ, and in their first confidence say, I am saved, are in danger of trusting to themselves." Christ's Object Lessons, p. 155
Bible: "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life." I John 5:13

"To obey the commandments of God is the only way to obtain His favor" Testimonies, vol. 4, p.28
Bible: "Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, 'The righteous wil live by faith' " Gal. 3:11

You really can't have it both ways Wendy. We have all tried that. Either EGW was truly a prophetess of God or she was not. If what she taught about salvation does not agree with the scriptures, then she is NOT teaching something from God. If she is not agreeing with what the scriptures teach, yet is claiming to be a spokesman for God, then the only conclusion is that it was not God she was hearing from.
Djconklin
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2000 - 9:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Breezy,

Here's an example of the kinds of deception that I mentioned earlier you can run into:

>She also made this statement:

"This nation will yet be humbled into the dust. England is studying whether it is best to take advantage of the present weak condition of our nation and venture to make war on her...When England does declare war, all nations will have one interest of their own to serve, and there will be general war, general confusion" (Testimonies, Vol. 1, p. 259)

This too, was a false prophecy, for England did not declare war on the United States!"

I found this at the SpiritualWarrior web site--he has loads of nonsense. Please note that this is not a defense of EGW but rather an attempt to get the whole truth out--it's just absolutely amazing the lengths some people will go to to get others to believe in their pet theories. I just can't stand it when people lie through their teeth to me--it's as if they are saying "You're so stupid I can tell you a bald face lie and you won't know it!"
Maryann
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2000 - 9:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Susan,

Yeh, I'm so tired of the, "WE are spreading the message all around the world." "WE are the only ones preaching the 3 angels message that was given for US in the end times. There is a SPECIAL BLESSING in that message!"

I ask if it is the denomination of SDA or the denomination of Christ that is the remnant!? I get the answer of, "WE the SDA, ARE the denomination of Christ!" Ugggggggggg! :-((

What I find as the most troubling thing is the vehement comment, "Paul, Paul, Paul, I'm so sick of hearing Paul. 'You people' take him so out of context and twist him to what you want. He is so easily twisted as Peter says in I Pet. 3:16! Why don't you put some of the same energy into Rev. where the special promise is for those that study it?"

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

Good grief, I just noticed that in the 11 days I was gone, the Grrrrrrrrrr's were not as needed as when I'm home!

Have any of you have to deal with anyone being sick of Paul?

BTW, I was looking forward to visiting your area and meeting you next month. But, due to several ongoing reasons, I cancelled everything Friday.

And, "Happy Sabbath!"

Scratching onward and upward......Maryann....Grrr
Djconklin
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2000 - 11:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lydell,

You wrote:

"Instead of...Daniel 8:14 referring to the purifying of the earth, it was now plain that it pointed to the closing work of our High Priest in heaven, the finishing of the atonement, and the preparing of the people to abide the day of His coming." Testimonies, vol. 1, p.58
"Jesus entered the most holy of the heavenly (sanctuary), at the end of the 2300 days of Daniel 8, in 1844, to make a final atonement for all who could be benefited by His mediation." Early Writings, p.253.

Compare those to the Bible: "The point of what we are saying is this; We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by man." Hebrews 8:1,2 written in 60 AD
"Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation." Romans 5:11

I'm sorry but I don't see any contradiction here. Can you try to explain it to me?
Susan
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2000 - 12:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maryann, I haven't encountered the Paul thing. But then I'm not around hard-core/historic SDA's much. Since Paul is one of my all-time favorite GIANTS in the faith, if they're sick of him then they'd soon be sick of me. Oh well! We're not called to please people, have a popular message, etc., only to "test all things in light of scripture".
Were you planning to come to my area? Or are you talking to someone else? That would've been great if you meant here. I'd love to get together sometime!
I'll end with this wonderful gem, I know it's from Paul. (BTW, I can understand why Paul would bug SDA's. It's hard to read his stuff and not be blown away. They just can't deal with all the contradictions he presents for them)
"So do not be ashamed to testify about our Lord, or ashamed of me his prisoner. But join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God who has saved us and called us to a holy life-not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel." 2Tim.1:8-10
Thanking God for Paul!!! Susan
Colleentinker
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2000 - 12:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Whether or not EGW began as a true prophet (and I don't believe she did), what really matters is her effect on the Adventist church. Without Ellen's "prophecies", dreams, and endorsements, we wouldn't have an Adventist church.

Without EGW there would be no 1844 message. There would be no investigatve judgment. There would probably not even be Sabbath as the Seal of God (or sign of the seal, as many SDA's today like to call it). In short, without EGW's convenient visions and James White's entreprenuerial gifts which resulted in publishing houses complete with inspsired writings with which to make a profit, there would never hadve been and Adventist church.

She was certainly corrupt during much of her life, and her mean-spiritedness and hypocrisy showed up more and more as she got older. We have to answer to God for our beliefs and convictions and choices.

Whether or not Ellen began with integrity, she did not end with integrity, and the SDA church is founded on untruths. Nothing based on lies can be the work of God.

We cannot sit on the fence. Either we are for God, or we are against him. We have to face him with our inner thoughts and decisions.

He calls us to honesty and integrity.
Colleen
Djconklin
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2000 - 2:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen,

>She was certainly corrupt during much of her life, and her mean-spiritedness and hypocrisy showed up more and more as she got older.

Eh?!? Not according to one of the kids that grew up around her.

>>We have to answer to God for our beliefs and convictions and choices. ... He calls us to honesty and integrity.

You are 100% correct about that.
Lydell
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2000 - 5:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Be happy to try David.

"Instead of...Daniel 8:14 referring to the purifying of the earth, it was now plain that it pointed to the closing work of our High Priest in heaven, the finishing of the atonement, and the preparing of the people to abide the day of His coming." Testimonies, vol. 1, p.58
Every person who has ever been an SDA knows that this is referring to the supposed "cleansing of the sanctuary". We hear it spouted constantly in the church.

"Jesus entered the most holy of the heavenly (sanctuary), at the end of the 2300 days of Daniel 8, in 1844, to make a final atonement for all who could be benefited by His mediation." Early Writings, p.253.
This clearly says that Jesus only entered the most holy of the heavenly in 1844, his purpose being to make a final atonement.

Compare those to the Bible: "The point of what we are saying is this; We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by man." Hebrews 8:1,2 written in 60 AD
According to this, Jesus had entered the holy place already by 60AD and that was a looong time before 1844.

"Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation." Romans 5:11
This too, was written before 1844. Notice that word "received". The presence of the "-ed"
on the end of the word tells us that this is something that has already been accomplished. Remember looong before 1844.

Here's some others:
"But you were washed, you were justified, you were sanctified. You were, you were you were...again it indicates a completed action.
"In Him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace." Ephesians 1:7 We already have it, there is no further work He has to do.
"Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him." Romans 4:7-8 Again, it has already been taken care of.
"And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation" Romans 5:11
"He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. Heb. 9:12 again, written about 60AD
So, we have been forgiven, washed, justified, sanctified, reconciled, redeemed, and he had already provided for our eternal redemption by 60AD. What possible work could be left to do?
Bruceh
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2000 - 11:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

FREQUENCY OF ANGELIC ENCOUNTERS
OF ELLEN WHITE VS THE BIBLE PROPHETS

PERSON---ENCOUNTERS---REFERENCES

HAGAR-----2---GENESIS 16: 7-11; 21:17
LOT-------1---GENESIS 19: 1-15
ABRAHAM---1---GENESIS 22: 11
JACOB-----2---GENESIS 31: 11; 32: 1
MOSES-----1---EXODUS 3:2; 32: 34
BALAAM----1---NUMBERS 22: 22-35
GIDEON----1---JUDGES 6: 11-22
SAMSON1S MOTHER---2----JUDGES 13: 3; 9-21
SAMSON1S FATHER---1----JUDGES 13: 9-21
DAVID-----1---2 SAMUEL 24:17; 1 CHRONICLES21: 16
ELIJAH----2---1 KINGS 19: 5, 7; 2 KINGS 1: 3
GAD-------1---1 CHRONICLES 21: 18
ARAUNAH---1---1 CHRONICLES 21: 20
ISAIAH----1---ISAIAH 6: 2,6
EZEKIEL---1 EZEKIEL 10-11
DANIEL----2 DANIEL 6: 22
ZECHARAIAH--7--(IN ONE NIGHT) ZECHARIAH 1: 7-6:15
JOSEPH----3---MATTHEW 1: 20; 2: 13; 2:19
JESUS-----2---MATTHEW 4:11; LUKE 22:43
WOMEN AT THE TOMB---1---MATTHEW 28: 5
ZECHARIAH---1---LUKE 1: 11
MARY--------2---LUKE 1: 26-38; JOHN 20: 12
SHEPHERDS---1---LUKE 2: 9-15
THE APOSTLES---1---ACTS 5:19, 20
PHILIPS-----1---ACTS 8: 26
CORNELIUS---1---ACTS 10: 3-7
PETER-------1---ACTS 12: 7-15
HEROD-------1---ACTS 12: 23
PAUL--------1---ACTS 27: 22-26
JOHN THE REVELATOR--1 ---(SEVERAL IN ONE VISION ON
ONE DAY) REVELATION 1: 10
==================================================


TOTAL IN THE BIBLE 45
ELLEN WHITE Angelic encountersis 100s THROUGHT HER
LIFE


Bruce Heinrich


BH
Bruceh
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2000 - 11:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

CAN CHRISTIANS MINISTERS EAT MEAT?
EGW- Counsels on Diet and Foods PG 399 Let not
any of our ministers set an evil example in the
eating of flesh meat. Let them and their families
live up to the light of health reform.
BIBLE- LUKE 22:15 And he said unto them, With
desire I have desired to eat this passover (lamb)
with you before I suffer:

IS A CHRISTIAN UNDER CONDEMNATION IF HE EATS MEAT?
EGW- Counsels on Diet and Foods PG.20
At the time the light of health reform dawned upon
us, and since that time, the questions have come
home every day, "Am I practicing true temperance
in all things?" "Is my diet such as will bring me
in a position where I can accomplish the greatest
amount of good?" If we cannot answer these
questions in the affirmative, we stand condemned
before God, for He will hold us all responsible
for the light which has shone upon our path.
BIBLE- 1 There is therefore now no condemnation
to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not
after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


WILL EATING EGGS HINDER OUR PRAYERS?
EGW-Counsels on Diet and Foods PG.366
You place upon your tables butter, eggs, and meat,
and your children partake of them. They are fed
with the very things that will excite their animal
passions, and then you come to meeting and ask God
to bless and save your children. How high do your
prayers go?
BIBLE- LUKE 11:11-13 If a son shall ask bread of
any of you that is a father, will he give him a
stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish
give him a serpent?
12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a
scorpion?
13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good
gifts unto your children: how much more shall your
heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that
ask him?

IS ELLEN WHITE A PROPHET?
EGW-Spiritual Gifts PG 232, 233, 234
I saw that God was in the proclamation of the time
in 1843. It was His design to arouse the people
and bring them to a testing point, where they
should decide for or against the truth.
Thousands were led to embrace the truth preached
by William Miller.

Many shepherds of the flock, who professed to love
Jesus, said that they had no opposition to the
preaching of Christ's coming, but they objected to
the definite time.

Ministers who would not accept this saving message
themselves hindered those who would have received
it. The blood of souls is upon them. Preachers
and people joined to oppose this message from
heaven and to persecute William Miller and those
who united with him in the work.

EGW- REVIEW AND HERALD 1850-11-01
The Lord showed me that the 1843 chart was
directed by his hand, and that no part of it
should be altered; that the figures were as he
wanted them. That his hand was over and hid a
mistake in some of the figures, so that none could
see it, until his hand was removed.

THE 1843 3TRUTH2 BECOMES THE 1844 3TRUTH2.
EGW-Spiritual Gifts VOL.1 PG 139 Those faithful,
disappointed ones, who could not understand why
their Lord did not come, were not left in
darkness. Again they were led to their Bibles to
search the prophetic periods. The hand of the Lord
was removed from the figures, and the mistake was
explained. They saw that the prophetic periods
reached to 1844, and that the same evidence they
had presented to show that the
prophetic periods closed in 1843, proved that they
would terminate in 1844. Light from the word of
God shone upon their position, and they discovered
a tarrying time.--If the vision tarry, wait for
it.--In their love for Jesus' immediate coming,
they had overlooked the tarrying of the vision,
which was calculated to manifest the true waiting
ones. Again they had a point of time. Yet I saw
that many of them could not rise above their
severe disappointment, to possess that degree of
zeal and energy which had marked their faith in
1843.
BIBLE-DEUT 18:21 And if thou say in thy heart, How
shall we know the word which Jehovah hath not
spoken?
22 when a prophet speaketh in the name of
Jehovah, if the thing follow not, nor come to
pass, that is the thing which Jehovah hath not
spoken: the prophet hath spoken it
presumptuously, thou shalt not be afraid of him.


CAN WE KNOW IF WE ARE SAVED (IN OTHER WORDS HAVE
FAITH)?
EGW-Advent Review and Sabbath Herald 06-17-90
-AT- The Truth as It Is in Jesus
We are never to rest in a satisfied condition, and
cease to make advancement, saying, "I am saved."
When this idea is entertained, the motives for
watchfulness, for prayer, for earnest endeavor to
press onward to higher attainments, cease to
exist.
BIBLE- ROM. 5:9,10 Much more then, being now
justified by his blood, we shall be saved from
wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were
reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much
more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his
life.
BIBLE-10:9,10,13 That if thou shalt confess with
thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in
thine heart that God hath raised him from the
dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto
righteousness; and with the mouth confession is
made unto salvation.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the
Lord shall be saved.
BIBLE-HEB. 4:2-5 For good news came to us just as
to them; but the message which they heard did not
benefit them, because it did not meet with faith
in the hearers.
3 For we who have believed enter that rest, as he
has said, "As I swore in my wrath, 'They shall
never enter my rest, although his works were
finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day
in this way, "And God rested on the seventh day
from all his works."
IS ELLEN WHITE KEEPING US FROM THE REST AND THE
FAITH THAT WE ARE SAVED SO THAT JESUS MAY ENTER
OUR LIVES.


Bruce Heinrich

When I hear people say well I love Ellen White she
is such a blessing to me, I ask them If I can read
her in front of there church but I get to choose
what ever I want, when I say this they always so
not thank you. Why is it that sombody can get a
blesing from her and not be abel to read her in
public????? They will let me read any of the
Bible though.

BH
Bruceh
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2000 - 11:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

FREQUENCY OF MAJOR BIBLE PROPHETS VISIONS
ELLEN WHITE VS THE BIBLE PROPHETS

PERSON--YRS OF MINISTRY--# ofVISIONS--AVG.perYR
ELIJAH-------21---0---0
ELISHA-------54---1---0
ISAIAH-------50---2---0
JEREMIAH-----40---2---0
EZEKIEL------22---7---0
DANIEL-------67---4---0
HOSEA--------25---1---0
JOEL----------?---1---0
AMOS---------14---5---0
OBADIAH-------?---1---0
JONAH____-----?---1---0
MICAH--------50---1---0
NAHUM--------50---1---0
HABAKKUK------?---1---0
ZEPHANIAH-----?---1---0
HAGGAI-------16---5---0
ZECHARIAH-----5---6---1
MALACHI-------?---1---0
JESUS-------3.5---0---0
JOHN---------60---1---0
ELLEN WHITE--71---203---3

==================================================

ELLEN WHITE SAID SHE HAD 203 DIVINLY INSPIRED
VISION (188 DATEDVISIONS PLUS 15 UNDATED)

THE CHURCH CLAIMS SHE HAD 2000 (SEE SEVENTH-DAY
ADVENTISTS BELIEVE PG. 224)
ELLEN WHITE 71Yrs 2000 visions 28 avg/yr
FREQUQNCY OF EGW,S VISIONS
DATE--# ofVISIONS--AVG PER YEAR---EGW1S AGE
1844-1850--60---10----17-23
1851-1860--27----3----24-33
1861-1870--35---3.5---34-43
1871-1880--14---1.5---44-53
1881-1890--15---1.5---54-63
1891-1900--15---1.5---64-73
1901-1915--22---1.5---74-89

==================================================
TOTAL VISOINS 188 OVER 71 YEARS, 2.5 AVERAGE
PER YEAR


Bruce Heinrich


Wow!!! and we cannot even add her to the cannon of
the Bible with all these angelic visits and
visions. Seems to me she should be the Greatest
Light.


BH
Maryann
Posted on Sunday, July 09, 2000 - 9:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Bruce,

It's good to have you back with your special talents.

Hope to see you next Friday at the FAF meeting!

Maryann
Djconklin
Posted on Sunday, July 09, 2000 - 5:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bruce,

>FREQUENCY OF ANGELIC ENCOUNTERS OF ELLEN WHITE VS THE BIBLE PROPHETS

Neat list Bruce, you put in quite a bit of work. Of course it assumes that all of the angelic visits were recorded. And we know of lots of things that aren't recorded.
Djconklin
Posted on Sunday, July 09, 2000 - 5:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Max,

>Mathematically speaking, can 144,000 individuals stand in a perfect square as Ellen G. White predicted? Be careful!

Max, you're assuming that this is a precise number. Notice that it is 12*12*1000--may just be John's way of saying 12 disciples * 12 tribes of Israel * a large number.
Djconklin
Posted on Sunday, July 09, 2000 - 5:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bruce,

>FREQUENCY OF MAJOR BIBLE PROPHETS VISIONS
ELLEN WHITE VS THE BIBLE PROPHETS

Again it shows that you put forth a great deal of effort. Unfortunately, your study contains a hidden assumption: that all of the visions are recorded. BTW, I beg to differ about Jonah; I'd say he had at least 3 in the book of Jonah alone and in Kings he is mentioned as a prophet so there assuredly were more than just one. God has spoken to me (privately) twice in my life and I'm not a prophet and they won't be recorded anywhere.
George
Posted on Sunday, July 09, 2000 - 9:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Djconklan,

If you are going to assume and there for argue, the prophets had more visions than were unrecorded, you must assume they also got around on flying skateboards, as it is not recorded that they didn't. You could also argue that Judas was the first man on the moon, because it doesn't say he wasn't. In fact you could make up anything you wanted to, and say it was so, and because it was not recorded, who could argue with you.

So, lets stay with the things that ARE recorded and see who has had the most visions. You know, by whatever percentage you could say the Bible prophets were unrecorded, we could say that EGW. was unrecorded too. Kinda ridicules isn't it.

This being said, what else do you want to talk about?

Like to hear from ya-----George
Bruceh
Posted on Sunday, July 09, 2000 - 9:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

EGW-HEALTH REFORMER 1871-11-01
By lacing, the internal organs of women are
crowded out of their positions. There is scarcely
a woman that is thoroughly healthy. The majority
of women have numerous ailments. Many are troubled
with weaknesses of most distressing nature. These
fashionably dressed women cannot transmit good
constitutions to their children. Some women have
naturally small waists. But rather than regard
such forms as beautiful, they should be viewed as
defective. These wasp waists may have been
transmitted to them from their mothers, as the
result of their indulgence in the sinful practice
of tight-lacing, and in consequence of imperfect
breathing. Poor children born of these miserable
slaves of fashion have diminished vitality, and
are predisposed to take on disease. The
impurities retained in the system in consequence
of imperfect breathing are transmitted to their
offspring.

EGW- HEALTH REFORMER 1871-11-01 "'BUT MY WAIST
IS NATURALLY SLENDER,' SAYS ONE WOMAN. SHE MEANS
THAT SHE HAS INHERITED SMALL LUNGS. HER ANCESTORS,
MORE OR LESS OF THEM, COMPRESSED THEIR LUNGS IN
THE SAME WAY THAT WE DO, AND IT HAS BECOME IN HER
CASE A CONGENITAL DEFORMITY. "AT THE HOTEL 'DIEU,'
THE GREAT HOSPITAL AT PARIS, A YOUNG GIRL OF
EIGHTEEN LATELY PRESENTED HERSELF TO BRESCHET FOR
HIS ADVICE. ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF HER THROAT, SHE
HAD A TUMOR OF VARIABLE SIZE, BUT NEVER LARGER
THAN ONE'S FIST. IT REACHED FROM THE COLLAR-BONE
AS HIGH AS THE THYROID CARTILAGE. WHEN PRESSED
DOWNWARD, IT WHOLLY DISAPPEARED; BUT AS SOON AS
THE PRESSURE WAS REMOVED, IT WAS INDOLENT, SOFT,
AND ELASTIC. IT WAS OBSERVED TO BE LARGEST WHEN
THE CHEST WAS TIGHTLY LACED WITH CORSETS. IN
SHORT, BY PLACING THE EAR ON IT, THE MURMUR OF
RESPIRATION COULD BE HEARD IN THE <SI TUMOR <EI,
WHICH PROVES THAT A PROTRUSION OF THE LUNGS HAD
TAKEN PLACE, OR, IN OTHER WORDS, THAT THE POOR
GIRL HAD BEEN LACED SO TIGHTLY THAT HER LUNGS,
HAVING NO LONGER
SUFFICIENT SPACE IN THEIR NATURAL POSITION, WERE
SQUEEZED OUT OF IT, AND WERE FORCING THEIR WAY UP
ALONG THE NECK."



EGW-Testimonies for the Church Volume Four PG 453
Every hour's work passes in review before God and
is registered for faithfulness or unfaithfulness.
The record of wasted moments and unimproved
opportunities must be met when the judgment shall
sit and the books shall be opened and everyone
shall be judged according to the things written in
the books.

EGW- Advent Review and Sabbath Herald 1907-06-13
After going from home to home, and seeing the many
photographs, I was instructed to warn our people
against this evil. This much we can do for God.
We can put these picture-idols out of sight. They
have no power for good, but interpose between God
and the soul. They can do nothing to help in
sowing the seeds of truth.

EGW- Bible Echo-1901-01-14
In many families the mantel-shelves, stands, and
tables are
filled with ornaments and pictures. Albums, filled
with photographs of the family and the photographs
of their friends, are placed where they will
attract the attention of visitors. Thus the
thoughts, which should be upon God and heavenly
interests are brought down to common things. Is
not this a species of idolatry? Should not the
money thus spent have been used to bless humanity,
to relieve the suffering, to clothe the naked, and
to feed the hungry? Should it not have been placed
in the Lord's treasury to advance His cause and
build up His kingdom in the earth?

EGW- Advent Review and Sabbath Herald 1907-06-13
Christ has given us no assurance that to attain
perfection of character is an easy matter. It is a
conflict, a battle, a march day after day. It is
through much tribulation that we enter the kingdom
of heaven. If we sit with Christ on his throne, we
must first be partakers with him in his suffering.

EGW- Bible Echo 1901-01-14
We have great changes to make before we reach
perfection. God calls for complete self-surrender.
We must guard diligently our lips, lest they speak
guile. We must be strict with ourselves, that we
bring not false principles into our dealings with
others, and lead souls from the safe path. We must
work the works of God. Adhere to correct
principles, whatever the cost to yourself.

EGW- Christ's Object Lessons PG 358
Many think it a sufficient excuse for the grossest
errors to plead forgetfulness. But do they not, as
well as others, possess intellectual faculties?
Then they should discipline their minds to be
retentive. It is a sin to forget, a sin to be
negligent. If you form a habit of negligence, you
may
neglect your own soul's salvation and at last find
that you are unready for the kingdom of God.

EGW- The Health Reformer 1866-08-01
It is a sin to be sick; for all sickness is the
result of transgression.

EGW-The Southern Watchman 1901-10-30
It is a sin to place poorly prepared food on the
table, because the matter of eating concerns the
well-being of the entire system.

EGW- Testimonies for the Church Volume Two PG 373
You should never let a morsel pass your lips
between your regular meals.

EGW- The Ministry of Healing pg 302
Cheese is still more objectionable; [than butter]
it is wholly unfit for food.

EGW- Testimonies for the Church Volume Eight PG
66
The exhibitions in the bicycle craze are an
offense to God. His wrath is kindled against those
who


do such things.

EGW- Second Advent Review and Sabbath Herald
1854-09-19
Parents, above every thing, take care of your
children upon the Sabbath. Do not suffer them to
violate God's holy day by playing in the house or
out of doors. You may just as well
break the Sabbath yourselves as to let your
children do it, and when you suffer your children
to wander about, and suffer them to play upon the
Sabbath, God looks upon you as Sabbath-breakers.

EGW- The Signs of the Times 1894-07-09
The requirement of God concerning those that shall
enter the pearly gates, is that they be like
Jesus, that they bear his image, and have his
mind.

EGW- Child Guidance PG 383
Among those who are waiting for the coming of the
Lord, meat eating will eventually be done away;
flesh will cease to form a part of their diet. We
should ever keep this end in view and endeavor to
work steadily toward it.

EGW- Sermons and Talks Volume Two PG 294
Without perfection of character no one can enter
the pearly gates of the city of God, for if, with
all our imperfections, we were permitted to enter
that city, there would soon be in heaven a second
rebellion. We must first be tried and chosen, and
found faithful and true. Upon the purification of
our character rests our only hope of eternal life.

EGW- The Spirit of Prophecy Volume Four PG 311
Our acts, our words, even our most secret motives,
all have their weight in deciding our destiny for
weal or woe. Though they may be forgotten by us,
they will bear their testimony to justify or
condemn. They go before us to the Judgment. The
use made of every talent will be scrutinized.
Have we improved the capital intrusted us of God?
Will the Lord at his coming receive his own with
usury? No value is attached to the mere profession
of faith in Christ; nothing is counted as genuine
but that love which is shown by works.

EGW- The Spirit of Prophecy Volume Four PG 312-313
Those who would share the benefits of the
Saviour's mediation should permit nothing to
interfere with their duty to perfect holiness in
the fear of God. The hours heretofore given to
pleasure, to display, or to gain-seeking, should
now be devoted to an earnest, prayerful study of
the word of truth. The subject of the sanctuary
and the investigative Judgment should be clearly
understood by the people of God. All need a
knowledge for themselves of the position and work
of their great High Priest. Otherwise, it will be
impossible for them to exercise the faith
essential at this time, or to occupy the position
which God designs them to fill.

EGW- Christ's Object Lessons PG 69
Christ is waiting with longing desire for the
manifestation of Himself in His church. When the
character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced
in His people, then He will come to claim them as
His own.


Bruce Heinrich


Bh
Cindy
Posted on Sunday, July 09, 2000 - 9:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bruce, very interesting study. thank-you! I remember reading years ago how EGW said God placed a hand over the calculations and then later removed it. I thought at the time that there was something very wrong about this, but for years tried to give EGW the benefit of the doubt. Recently, I've read how she says that God showed her that William Miller had a "perfect chain of truth' in his calculations of 1843. Read and examine them from Scripture everyone!! They are unbelievable (literally!). And she said God revealed to her that Miller had the truth...

To read this information you can read Chapter 3 and 4 of Dale Ratzlaf's book 'Cultic Doctrine' from his web site at
www.ratzlaf.com Or you can order the whole book from this site. I notice in the book it has the refences from EGW for this endorsement of Miller's views, ranging from 'Early Writings', 'Spiritual Gifts', Testimonies Volume 1, and 'The Great Controversy'.

Grace always,
Cindy
George
Posted on Monday, July 10, 2000 - 8:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

To all,


Over the years I have had the privilege of hearing most of the arguments about religion that are being bandied about today. But, because I have been away from all religion so long, I feel I have the advantage of not having heard the Bible quotes in so long, that I have a fresh view of what they say. I see them for what they says not for what someone else says they say, in other words I get my own understanding of it.

I was just reading Bruceís post of June 9. It is some the most amazing stuff I have ever read. I now see that EGW was one of the most brilliant writers of the past 200 yrs. Her writhing (writing;-) can be interpreted in two very different ways as you go along. For example half of the time you can say with a certainty that she says that we are saved by grace and then you read in, The Spirit of Prophecy Volume Four PG 311: ìNo value is attached to the mere profession of faith in Christ; nothing is counted as genuine but that which is shown by works.î

When you read her works you have opposite concepts going through your head at the same time. No wonder when you get done reading something you have no real idea what you just read, it just seems like a collection of words with no meaning. The only other writing in which I have seen this consistently happen are those of the Catholic church, empty words taking up space on a page.

And it has only gotten worse. In the late ë70s when EGW really came under attack, the SDA church was so embarrassed they decided to tuck their tail between their legs and stop mentioning EGW by name and refer to her as a famous author. Anyone that is this ashamed to stand up for who and what they believe in, will say just about anything to anyone at anytime to cover that shame. Is there any wonder there is so much argument about what exactly they believe in, or what a word or phrase means. There is no common thread running through their interpretation of their doctrines.

Let me know what you all think-----George
Steve
Posted on Monday, July 10, 2000 - 9:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi George,

Agreed! Ellen White is absolutely clear about salvation by grace alone. She is also clear about salvation by works. Unfortunately you can't have it both ways.

I know there are those that say you can do the same thing with the Bible, but after reading it without those White-colored glasses on, scripture seems to be consistently clear that it is grace alone . . . period.

One of my formerly favorite SDA pastors used to refer to EGW in his sermons as a Christian writer of the 19th century. Now that I'm more aware of the issues around her character and her writings, I can't say that I hold that man in very high esteem. He apparently knew the issues. But quoting a "regular" on this website, in SDAism theology is economically driven. As you say, maybe he was covering his shame?!

Steve
Allenette
Posted on Monday, July 10, 2000 - 9:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, here's my take on the EGW/SDA (no diff) position as pounded into us by my dad, a historical, traditional, loyal SDA pastor til his demise in '76, which by now I have found out, were some really heavy times for SDA (Thankfully I was willing to play my DO NOT PASS GO, DO NOT COLLECT $200 card by then gggg:

re: righteousness by faith---> Jesus died for you. Then show Him how much you appreciate it by not doing this this this this this this this this this this this and THAT. Then worry about whether there were a few more this's and that's that you missed until the END OF TIME which by then is TOO LATE. How nice.

Did I miss anything????
Steve
Posted on Monday, July 10, 2000 - 9:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Allenette,

Right on. Rather than stopping at righteousness by faith, we SDAs have gone on to all the "this's and that's" and we end up worrying ourself right out of any kind of salvation we may have thought we had.

If we love God we'll not kill anyone. OK (although Jesus expanded that commandment to include more than just the mere act). If we love God we'll not commit adultery. OK (also expanded by Jesus). If we love God we'll eat the right foods (oops, Jesus disagreed with this one! "It's not what goes into the mouth . . . ") If we love God we'll keep His Sabbath (oops, Jesus outright broke that one!)

Although we're supposed to know that we have eternal life now, in SDAism you really don't know. You may have just one unconfessed sin waiting on the books to zap you at the end of time. And then, as you point out, it's too late. And we SDAs say we don't believe in and eternal hell. If that's not an eternal hell, I don't know what is.

Steve
Maryann
Posted on Monday, July 10, 2000 - 10:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Are you sure that one unconfessed sin will zap you to hell? I thought she said something about that it wasn't the occasional sin but the trend of a life time!

Actually, when you get out of the context of EGW, it IS just one sin that will zap you; the "one" sin of un-belief!

Maryann
Cindy
Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2000 - 6:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

George, Good post! I agree, "When you read her works you have opposite concepts going through your head at the same time. No wonder when you get done reading something you have no real idea what you just read."

I've termed this 'doublespeak'...

Grace always,
Cindy
Cindy
Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2000 - 7:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Allenette, you are perceptive (EGW/SDA, no diff); and how righteousness by faith has been taught... How old were you when you left 'the church'?

To me, there is a completely Sufficient Grace not based on all the "this, this, this, and that." This Grace is based on what God has DONE, not on what we DO. And as Martin Lloyd-Jones wrote when commenting on Romans 6:

"The true preaching of the gospel of salvation by grace alone always leads to the possibility of this charge (sinning more so grace may abound) being brought against it. This is a very good test of gospel preaching... If a man peaches justification by works, no one would ever raise this question. No one who preaches in that strain would be liable to this misunderstanding. There is a kind of dangerous element about the true presentation of the doctrine of salvation."

There IS a risk in proclaiming the gospel of God's free grace... but that should not temper our emphasis that it is about HIM, not about us...

Grace to you, Allenette!
Cindy
George
Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2000 - 10:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Steve, Allenette, Cindy,

GREAT posts!! Doesn't it feel good to know the reason we were so confused is that we heard two things coming out of the mouth at the same time.
Now all we have to do is figure out which one we want to throw out, and think of it no more. Can you feel the confusion melting away? I did!!!!

Below I will list all the controversies we need to understand to be saved:

Is salvation a free gift from God if we believe in it?

-uh

-uh

-uh

-uh

-uh

-uh, I can't thing of any others, Can you?

The best to you all----George

PS...But it is kind of fun to figure the asnswers out, isn't it? :-)
Colleentinker
Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2000 - 4:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maryann, I was taught that even one unconfessed sin would keep me from heaven. Even the sins I had forgotten about and hadn't confessed could keep me out. Even wasting time (EGW says this) could keep me out.

But you're also rightóit really is only one SIN that keeps us unsavedóthe sin of unbelief!

Great post above, George!

Colleen
Susan
Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2000 - 5:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great posts everyone! The confusion of EGW seems to be the common factor here. I read something a while back from a great little book. Colleen mentioned it a couple of months ago but it's so great that I just have to bring it up again.

The book is "Encounter with Darkess" by John A. MacMillan (I got it for under $5 from CBD!) He was a missionary to China and other places, and he was with the Missionary Alliance church. The book is primarily about demon possesion and detecting Satan's influence. There's a section on cults in the chpt. "Demonology and Religion". His thought that I think is profound is, "The literature of these cults is exceedingly dangerous. Just as the Word of God is charged with spiritual energy, and works on the heart with transforming power, so the literature of every cult contains satanic power that unconsciously influences the minds of readers, and quickly and quietly produces a deadness of the spiritual senses. The truth as it is in Jesus gradually loses its hold, and is replaced by false ideas. The falsities of the cult, impressed on the hearer by repeated addresses, and by reading of the literature, gain a stranglehold on the mind, until only the Spirit of God can bring light once more to the darkened understanding. " p.99-100. I find this profound! It would explain how folks could read the bible and just not "get it". By opening up to the teachings of a false prophet, you've also opened up the door to an evil influence that will cloud your understanding (ie. the EGW veil!) He also points out the significance of Mary B. Eddy and EGW's trances. He considers these a sign of demon possesion. The author also gives a bit of history on the begining of Spiritism in this country. Recently I started to wonder if this could be a strong coincidence??? The rise in Spiritism and most cults in this country seemed to start-up within the same 50 yrs. or so. Does anyone out there think this could be of significance? Something to think about!

Resting in the assurance that victory IS the Lord's and He alone saves!
Susan
Breezy
Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2000 - 6:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think absolutely that Satanic influences have come into perceptions of EGW's writings. They have been so corrupted and used for evil purposes that one wonders if anything is still useful there. I think that anything that we read we need to ask the Holy Spirits guidance and understanding. Then we can know that God is leading us to discern what is false and what is truth. EGW isn't the only one out there to watch out for. I think it is dangerous to think that everyone who has a grain of truth or agrees with our ideas in some way, is Christ-centered.
Wendy
Steve
Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2000 - 7:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maryann,

No, I don't believe that one unconfessed sin will zap you to hell. But as I understood the IJ, that's how I saw it. It was kinda scary. But now I believe that all sin, confessed and unconfessed was paid for in full by the blood of Christ.

Steve
Sherry2
Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2000 - 7:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

First off, does anyone have the books about the shut door theology...I mean the original sources...such as "A Word to the Little Flock"?

Secondly, in Spiritual Gifts Vol 1...pg. 136 (and many before and after follow this theme).."Many ministers would not accept this saving message (in regards to 1844 the second coming) themselves, and those who would receive it, they hindered. The blood of souls is upon them. Preachers and people joined to oppose this message from heaven." Statements that "Jesus turned his face from the churches, and bid his angels to faithfully watch over the precious ones who did not reject the testimony.." I have a letter from Ellen's home church stating that she was not disfellowshiped due to preaching Jesus' second coming...the Methodist church preached that itself...they were opposed to the date setting because that goes against Scripture! Period! I was told that only this movement proclaimed Christ coming. Now that I've read the works of others like Spurgeon, etc. I find that others preached Jesus' Coming. But it was the time setting that was wrong. And yet she said they had the blood of souls upon them. That is wrong and she proclaimed herself to see Jesus turn his face away from other churches. That does not add up to my Bible.
Maryann
Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2000 - 8:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Sherry,

That, I'm pretty sure is a tuff order to fill. In fact, if my memory serves me close to right, one of our most learned honorary members, LynnW is looking for that one too. I think she has only three books to complete her entire collection of EGW!

Maryann
Cindy
Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2000 - 8:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susan, thanks for bringing up that book again, sounds interesting. Also, I have wondered about all the spiritualism, cult beginnings and even evolutionary ideas (Darwin) that had their roots in the 1800's. Seems like an all-out onslaught of Satan and his forces...

Grace always,
Cindy
Sherry2
Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2000 - 9:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have those quotes in my Spiritual Gifts book, Maryann. Right here in front of me...Not a doubt about it. I purchased the set some years ago. I am thankful I did too. I've got the Vol. 1-4...It's copywright is 1945. In Christ - Am I so thankful! :), Sherry
Colleentinker
Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2000 - 9:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you for reminding me about that book again, Susan! It made a profound impression on me, too.

Ellen herself said that either her visions came from God or they came from Satan. When she wrote things that she had to retract or explain away (i.e. God held his hand over the 1843 error that her own vision had confirmed), those things did not come from God.

Deception has only one source: the father of lies. I believe that John MacMillan had it right. Deception and confusion are inherent in Ellen's writings. Those things can only come from the "other side", as Chaim Potok says in his books.

When we have the Holy Spirit in us, our spirits recognize the Holy Spirit's presence underlying the words of the Bible when we read it. I believe that the gift of discernment (see I Cor. 12 8-10) is recognizing the difference between God's spirit and the presence of a deceptive spirit. This discernment is absolutely a gift God gives his church.

The truth absolutely sets us free! Praise God!

Colleen
Sherry2
Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2000 - 9:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Or were you talking about "Word to the Little Flock"? Maryanne...sorry ..just noticed that. :)
Sherry2
Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2000 - 9:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here's another thing that has definitely added to Adventist pride too I am sure...when Roger Morneau tells his story in "Trip into the Supernatural" he tells how either Satan or an evil angel says that SDA's have special protection because they keep the Sabbath. Hmmm.
George
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2000 - 9:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen,

You mentioned above that the gift of discernment is a gift from God to His church. Which church is it? Every church can say they are His.

How can we know what we discern, or become convinced of, is from God. I am just as convinced my views on predestionation are as right as others here are convinced theirs are right. How do we decide who has discerned right?

Just wondering---George
Colleentinker
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2000 - 5:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

George, very good questions.

First, His church is His people. I am not referring to a denomination. A denominational claim to be God's church is merely a human proclamation. But Jesus built his church out of individuals who believed in him and shared the amazing news that the Messiah had come, had lived, died, and risen again! All who believe in Him are members of his church, and they are sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Second, discernment is hard to explain. This is what I know. Jesus has given His Spirit to those who accept Him as Lord. As we grow in Christ we learn to know his voiceóhis promptings and thoughts and ideas.

This "knowing" is what I can't explain because it grows out of experience in learning to know and trust Jesus.

But discernment is specifically for discerning between spirits. There are other giftsóknowledge, wisdomóthat are more directly related to knowing what a Biblical concept might mean. Let me deal with the question of discerning between spirits first.

The Bible tells us to test the spirits. A person (or book or body of writing, etc.) must proclaim unequivocally that Jesus came in the flesh and is the Lord God. If not, his ideas or teachings cannot be trusted. When we have the Holy Spirit in us, we learn to discern its presence in others as well. By the same token, we learn to discern the presence of evil spirits, too.

These discernments can always be argued because they are spiritual experiences, not something you can map in black and white so everyone can understand. But the church is supposed to be a group of people all of whom have the Holy Spirit, and they have the spiritual "awakeness" to know if one of them is discerning truth or not.

Also, the gift of discernment, like all the other gifts, is granted in significant portions to some of the church, not to everyone. Every Christ-follower has his own unique set of spiritual gifts. We don't all have all of them; Jesus intends for us to build each other up with our gifts.

I believe that everyone who has the Holy Spirit has spiritual discernment that exceeds anything found among non-believers. But some members have a special gift of discernment.

Now, regarding people's perceptions of doctrines, etc. Some things are spelled out very specifically in the Bible. These are the things God wanted us to know for sure. They relate directly to our salvation. (i.e. Jesus died for our sins and rose again).

Some things, however, are less specifically explained. They actually have some "mystery" (as Max likes to say!) about them. I believe that Christ-followers can disagree about the detailed particulars about some of these things and still be one in Christ. God does give gifts of knowledge and wisdom to some of his peopel, and it's possible that some of them have more clear understandings than others.

But I believe that the Holy Spirit makes clear to us what we need to understand at any given time. In fact, I believe that sometimes he progressively uncovers the nuances of some of these things.

I'm not sure how we can always know who's right. Sometimes we have to live with a certain amount of not-knowing, or paradox. But I do believe that God guides us and wants us not to be divided among ourselves by different interpretations of things such as predestination. (Maybe even differing views on predestination can both/all be parts of the whole reality.)

I don't know if I've answered your questions, George, but thanks for the challenge to put some of my ideas into words!

Colleen
Cindy
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2000 - 5:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi George and Colleen, Good questions and thoughts! I'm sure we all desire a discerning heart!!

As Paul writes:
"And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight, so that you may be able to DISCERN what is best and may be pure and blameless until the day of Christ, filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ--to the glory and praise of God." Philippians 1:9-11

Grace always,
Cindy
George
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2000 - 8:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen,

You did a wonderful job of answering my question. But I, being who I am have one more, at least one more.

But first I would like to say that I am beyond taking offence and getting angry with someone for having a different opinion than mine, and I really hope that I don't offend anyone else. Like I said before, all I need to know to get to heaven is that Christ died for me, anything after that is just window dressing.

That being said, your discription of discernment sounds a lot like we could or should be on a witch hunt. If you will pardon me, it sounds like what EGW did when she pointed out someones faults or things they did behind closes doors. Do you see what I mean?

Cindy mentioned what Paul said---that we may discern what is best--- it sounds like he meant is to DECIDE what is best, which is what I thought it meant.

Your thoughts on deciding what doctrine is right, I couldn't agree with you anymore. It is too bad we can't have something concrete in this area.

When it comes to paradoxs I am not sure there are as many of them as there seem to be. It could be that we always read and understand one side or the other wrong. I am not sure of this yet, but I have always wondered why God couldn't have made some things more clear, perhaps He did and we just don't see it.

Thanks for letting me run on so---George
Cindy
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2000 - 9:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

George, I think the more we dwell on the wonderful gift of Christ and rest fully in the security that our salvation is forever sealed in Jesus, I think the Holy Spirit is given more and more to open our eyes! and 'spiritually discern' a lot of the falsehood we have been taught...

One big thing for me in the last five years has been that the 'fear tactics' about missing out on salvation if I'm not in the right denomination or believe the "pillars" (doctrines hammered out in the 1800's and now set in stone),-- those 'fear tactics' are not threatening anymore!!

I loved your comment: "all I need to know to get to heaven is that Christ died for me, anything after that is just window dressing."

That reminded me of a story I heard in a sermon a year or so ago...(PCA Presbyterian church):

Three men went up to heaven. Met by Jesus at the pearly gates, the first one was asked, "Why do you think you DESERVE to get in?" He answered, "Oh, MY faith is strong, MY faith is unwavering..." and he was turned away...

The second one ran up to the gate, and when asked, "Why do you deserve to be let in?", he answered, "Oh, I have faith!, plus obedience! You know, 'trust and obey'!"... and he was also turned away...

Lastly, the third person quietly walked up... the same question was asked of him. "Why do you deserve to be let into heaven?" He answered, "Oh, I DO NOT DESERVE it, I am not worthy!! You, Jesus, Alone are Worthy! and I can only Rest in your Promise of YOUR PERFECT RIGHTEOUSNESS in my place... Faith IN YOU IS ALL I HAVE!"

And Jesus answered, "Come in! come in! That's ALL YOU NEED!!!

Always grace,
Cindy
Colleentinker
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2000 - 10:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good points, George!

You're right; God gives all of us discernment so we can know truth. The discernment I was referring to is the specific gift of the Spirit mentioned in I Cor. 12:10, and in the NIV it's called "distinguishing between spirits". It's called discerning in other translations.

No, I don't believe true Christ-followers would ever conduct a witch-hunt. Paul seems to be listing this gift in the context of saying that along with gifts of miracles and healing, God also gives the gift of discerning between spirits. The point is that God gives his people a way to know whether or not they're being deceived. It's not for the sake of getting rid of people; rather, it's for the sake of people protecting themselves from becoming involved with people who would lead them away from Christ instead of toward him.

Praise God for his love and care!
Colleen
Steve
Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2000 - 10:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just a thought about the 144,000 . . .

Did you know that in the Kingdom Hall's of Jehovah's Witnesses, that you cannot partake of the bread and wine of communion ("memorial") unless you are one of the 144,000? These 144,000 were alive (at least born by) 1914 when Jesus came invisibly to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society headquarters in Brooklyn, New York. Of course, there are only a few of the old-timers around.

The JW doctrine of the parousia (Greek, meaning "presence" as well as "coming") of Christ in 1914 is based on, among other things, the same passages in Daniel on which SDAs base the 1844 Investigative Judgment.

I've read other's comments (perhaps on other websites) about the SDA teaching of the "invisible coming" of Christ to the second compartment of the heavenly sanctuary. JWs and SDAs have other striking similarities, including Arianism (more strongly with JWs), soul sleep, contitional immortality, their own Bible (New World "Translation" for JWs, Clear Word "paraphrase" for SDAs).

For JWs if Armagedon doesn't happen before the remaining of the 144,000 die off, then they're going to face a very serious crisis. They've had many over the years (including 1925, 1941, 1975, each time losing thousands of members).

I am beginning to believe that the various SDA teachings regarding the 144,000 are perhaps tied very strongly to the doctrine of the Investigative Judgment.

What do you think?
Cindy
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2000 - 4:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Interesting post about the JW's., Steve. One of them at my door a few weeks back told me he used to be a Seventh-day Adventist 20 years ago, but is so glad to have now found 'the truth'!

I had known they taught an invisible coming of Jesus in 1914, but forgot they used the texts from Daniel like S.D.A.'s do... (I actually studied for quite awhile with two ladies back in 1984. They were extremely nice people; even came with two complete meals to help us when we moved!).

We too, have been taught to believe something happened invisibly with Christs' coming in to the Most Holy Place in 1844. I know it used to be taught, (and written specifically by EGW), that Jesus went from the Holy Place into the Most Holy Place at this time! Now it is taught that he just began a different "phase" of His ministry at this time...

As far as the 144,000 and the Investigative Judgement, I think this doctrine DOES influence how the 144,000 are perceived by many in Adventism. Again, the emphasis lies on the BELIEVERS action, if not the believers perfect obedience as stressed in the past... it is now the believers perfect trust in God. Safe to save finally!

Just a few weeks ago in Sabbath School class there was a discussion as to the identity of the
the 144,000-- the end-time saints who FINALLY have that absolutely perfect love for Christ that shows to the world God's ways are right! THEIR single-minded devotion to Him is what will finally end the controversy and bring about the return of Christ!

Blessings to you today, Steve!

Always in Grace,
Cindy
George
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2000 - 8:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cindy,

I liked your story, and I am continually amazed to find that other churches have some of this stuff figured out right. (After so many years of being told that the SDA were the only ones that could possibly get any of it correct!!!!)

Colleen,

I can accept the discernment between people or rather "peoples spirits" for the purpose of protection and not for excluding them. We are never so good that we can exclude anyone!

Some day I will write something on the fear the SDA church instilled in me, starting from when I was nine years old and told a little Catholic friend I went to church on Saturday. This too, is when I got my first dose of seperationism,----we were right and everyone else was wrong.

Later-----George
Colleentinker
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2000 - 11:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree, George! I'd like to hear your story.

BTW, I find it interesting that Joseph Smith was murdered in 1844.

Colleen

Topics | Last Day | Last Week | Tree View | Search | Help/Instructions | Program Credits Administration