| Author | Message | ||
| Darrell |
Bruce, yes! "nomos" = "Torah". And we are not under "Torah". But my last question was really about the law that is written on our hearts: what is it? I recently finished reading a book which stated that the law written on our hearts is the 10 commandments, a conclusion which I found unacceptable, because: (1) in Matthew 5 Jesus expands on the letter of the law into greater principles, even going beyond the 2nd "Great Commandment" to say "love your enemies", and (2) in the New Testement the 2 Great Commandments are given even greater emphasis than the 10. So what is the law written on our hearts? As a minimum it must embody the principles expressed in the Great Comandments as well as the principles in the 10. (They are the same principles after all, aren't they?) Furthermore it is not codified into human language, because we have shown for eons our evil ability to get around the principles while still telling ourselves we are keeping the letter. Instead we are given the Holy Spirit to apply the principles. To prevent confusion or anarchy, we are told to test the spirits by the word of God (1John 4:1-3, Is.8:20). I welcome any further thoughts on this. Getting back to Matthew 5:17+: why would Jesus say "until heaven and earth pass away" followed by "until all is fulfilled" if He planned to fulfill all before heaven and earth passed away? Of course the rhetorical answer would be that he did not plan to fulfill all before heaven and earth passed away. What do you say, has the "all" Jesus was talking about been fulfilled? I welcome your replies. | ||
| Jude the Obsure |
I go to a Bible study every Wednesday night -- in fact, I lead it -- that is sponsored and controlled by an SDA church (not the one I attend regularly, but a different one, both are large). Why I -- a "spiritual spy in the camp" -- am suffered to lead it only the God of infinite mystery knows. And I don't know how long I'll last. But the last time we met, last night, I selected the OT laws as our subject. I read a whole bunch of laws from Deuteronomy, including the Sabbath law, the tithing law, and most of the other OT laws the SDAs attempt to enforce on their members. Among the others were those that SDAs either reject out of hand or "can't see, can't read,î and so are "not in the Bible." But I forced the issue by reading: "Do not plant two kinds of seed in your vineyard." Deut. 22:9. "Do not plow with an ox and a donkey yoked together." Deut. 22:10 "Do not wear clothes of wool and linen woven together." Deut. 22:11. I got some uproar on this one. "Make tassels on the four corners of the cloak you wear." Deut. 22:12. Use tithes to support widows, orphans, and homeless (and not just the ministry, or Levies, only). Deut. 14:22-29. Some uproar. "Whatsoever hath not fins and scales [clams, lobster, shrimp, etc.] ye may not eat." Deut. 14:10. Some murmuring, but since most SDAs donít ìlikeî these, theyíre not much of a temptation. One woman shouted, ìA lot of people are allergic to shellfish! It was a HEALTH law.î Not to mention those who are allergic to many different kinds of fruits and vegetables, such as corn, mushrooms, etc. But I didn't say that. I also forgot to mention that God said in the KJV his people may eat certain insects, such as beetles, grasshoppers, katydids and the like. Do not eat the blood when you eat the meat. Deut. 12:23-25. Most SDA meat-eaters eat the blood in the meat, which would taste like Kleenex without the blood, and don't want to listen when you tell them the OT forbids it! Some snores on this one. "A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing." Deut. 22:5. Pants, ladies? Kilts, Scottish men? Deut. 22:5. The SDA ladies put up a mighty uproar on this one, saying in effect that times had changed, cultures were different, etc. I reminded them that EGW forbade pants on women (she wore long pants, but only UNDER her skirt, and I have a picture of her in pants showing from under a loooong skirt to prove it). Uproar! Uproar! I asked them if they let their daughters wear their Daddies' sweatshirts. Uproar! Uproar! Uproar! There were other texts. Nobody could agree on anything. They said, "Common sense" dictates. I pointed out if you use "common sense" as to which OT laws to die for (7th day Sabbath, no pork, no shellfish) and which to ignore that the "common sense of the overwhelming majority of Christians both in North America and worldwide would overwhelm them. Uproar! The men were more laid back. One guy was "liberal." Another guy was Lutheran, and it was crystal clear that HE DIDN'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT AT ALL!!! I can't say that I endeared myself to these people last night. I did not argue with them. I didn't even give them my own opinion. I did ask leading questions. Than I just smiled while they stewed in their own confusion and consternation. But I may have sown some seeds of doubt. What do you all think? Jude | ||
| Lynn W |
Good show, Jude. I wish I was allergic to shellfish instead of corn & lettuce (yes, lettuce). Shellfish is a lot easier to avoid. Great point, Colleen about the Sabbath/shadow pointing to Christ. But if it's so neccesary to keep it, I wonder why Adventists don't keep the Passover as well. It also pointed both backwards (the exodus from Egypt) and forward (the passover lamb). Darrell, could you give us the author & publisher of the book you referred to? | ||
| Bruce H |
I believe that the Law written on our Hearts is Jesus Christ. He is the fulfillment of the Law and he indwells in our Heart, so this is the Law written on our Hearts. The real problem is God cannot make a Law for every circumstance and condition. With Christ as our guide and teacher He becomes our Law. Adventist will tell you that Sin is the transgretion of Law (and that is because the Law is their God), But I see sin as the transgression of what God Commands. Remember that God gave Command to the Jews to kill all the people in the city of Jerico, is this not a trangression of the sixth commandment. If that Logic makes you mad then the Law is your guide and God. But if your law is Jesus Christ then you say Lord I am your Humble servant I will do as you say for you are a Just and rightious God. For God said up on Mount siani All the words I have said you will do and then again on Calvary He said I did it for you. The Question about the Sabbath is real simple. Do you believe that the Bible is the inerant word of God. If you believe that the Bible is the word of God, then do you believe what the bible says in Romans 10:4. Rom 10:4 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. If you think that Maybe Paul did not pick a good set of words or maybe misspoke then you do not believe the Bible is the word of God. But if you Do you believe that the Bible is the word of God then which one of the examples would you pick for the God confusing text. One.---- God is trying to trick me. It can not be that simple. That is to good to be true. Or the famous one, now I can go out and murder people. Two.---- God who has the capability to create the universe with all its intricacies forgot to define what type of law he was talking about (For Christ is the end of cerimonial law). Three.---- God used a bad way of trying to explain what happened with the law, I could do a lot better job. Four.---- The law is bigger than God how could he do away with the law when it is bigger and better then God. It all boiles down to trust, do you trust in Jesus Christ and what he did on the cross or not. DO YOU TRUST THE WORD OF GOD OR NOT. B | ||
| Bruce H |
To finish my point in the above text Let us read I Cor 14:37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write you are the COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD. So when Paul says in Rom 10:4 that Christ is the end of Law then this is the Lords Commandments. | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Bruce, Thanks for that. Yes, I think you have the right idea. Jesus Christ is indeed the law written on our hearts. --Jude | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Bruce, Oh, I forgot to add the mandatory illustration: One day my suspicious eighty-four-year-old Addventist (sic) lady friend was fulminating about so-called (in her view) Christians who "throw out" the 10 Commandments and the Investigative Judgment. "If you do that," she asked, "then what do you have left?" "Jesus?" I ventured. "Then you'll go out and do anything you want!" she finalized. And she's been watching and questioning me ever since. She knows I work out at a Philistine gym, for example. She doesn't exercise at all, except to go from the parking lot to church, the store, etc., and back. But she condemns me for exercising "indoors." To follow the health rules, she says, I should "walk" outdoors, because EGW says, "Walking is the best exercise." She doesn't have a clue about getting appropriate upper-body exercise (which walking won't do for you) or building up muscle tissue in order to burn fat more efficiently or exercising specific muscle groups to stave off arthritis, etc., etc., etc. Why not? Because the Bible and EGW come from God and have all the rules we need to know about health. Jude |
