| Author | Message | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
David, "Blessed art thou, David Oltmans: for flesh and blood hath not revealed this unto thee, but your Father which is in heaven." Matthew 16:17, adapted. -Jude | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Colleen, "Came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, and said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoso shall receive one such as this little child in my name receiveth me. But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea." Matthew 18:1-6. Thanks, Colleen, for triggering that precious passage. Yes, in my dream it is indeed I who am the Old Dude, the Master Sergeant Major Sir, and the haystack-headed kid -- all three -- but the greatest of them is still the haystack-headed kid, at least according to Jesus Christ's table-overturning way of relating to the world. And, yes, I have indeed rescued my (for lack of a more appropriate term) "inner child" from the inner dictator that ruled my life for so long. Now I'm hoping that others -- especially some among the vast throng of still-nazified SDAs out there who dare to cruise this website -- will find parallels in their own lives and dare to be open with www.formeradventist.com about it. A "coat of many colors" to you, Colleen, -Jude | ||
| Timo K. |
I haven't had time to think of Jude's dream yet, but I have a question about "rapture". My Pentacostal friends seem to make rapture a sure and quite central teaching in the Bible. I like to know if the Bible leaves this subject as an open question, or is there any way the Bible supports rapture? Sorry this unrelated question to your discussions. For me the way we ascend to Heaven is not central, only on what basis we are able to ascend is important. That's why I have not spent much time thinking of rapture or other possibilities. I have accepted the adventist interpretation, not by studying it but "by faith". timo | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Timo, Hello! This is Jude at the Wild Animal Park (WAP) in Escondido, California. I've been spending the afternoon here at this utterly wonderful place, checking out the animals that God created for our joy. I just happened on a Pacific Bell exhibit. They have a line of computers here that anybody can use. They're offering for sale an online-all-the-time Internet connection, and let people try it out. So I did! I wanted to see if I could access www.formeradventist.com. I tried, and BINGO! I was at this website in about 1.5 seconds! Well, you want to talk about the rapture! First of all, I'm not in the mood. There's an animal exhibit -- "up close and personal" with the animals -- that I'm headed for. By the way, there's a baby gorilla here that you can see behind glass. Ordinarily they don't take the animals away from their parents, but in this case the mother rejected her baby, and so the WAP veterinarians took here. They treat the baby, a female, I can't remember her name, with great care. Cute thing. Come on down, Timo, and visit this place. During the month of December it's open till 9:00 pm. You can also take the monorail, called the Mombasa Railway, all around the park. They specialize in reproducing endangered species. You can see the animals from the "night train" till 9:00 pm. It's a wonderful experience! It's "living in the kingdom of God" while we're still on earth! Okay, the rapture ... well, the way I feel right now, I've already been raptured. I walk around here and smile at all the people. They have little girls doing ballet on the Thorntree Stage. Did you know there are less than 30 northern rhino left in the world? They're on the edge of extinction. They have two females here and one male. WAP veterinary staff is trying to breed them back into existence. If you ask me, this is the work of the Lord too. Remember, God says, "I will distroy him who destroys the earth." This would, I presume, all his created animals. What right have we to machine gun down these creatures whom God created just to grind their horns up to sell to wealthy Saudi Arabians as an aphrodesiac? Well, the dude here (salesman) says I have to "wrap it up," this message. So, catch you later, Timo. Vaya con Dios, Jude | ||
| Onesimus |
Timo: One of the best resources for explaining what the Bible teaches and does not teach about end times is THE FINAL DRAMA by Walvoord. It is systematic, straight forward, clear and biblical. It really helped unravel my SDA end time distortions. Gary Inrig, our pastor at Trinity, says "People need to get off the program committee and on to the welcoming committee for Jesus' return." So whether you are pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib (as is the SDA position), what matters is that His return is a sure event. Sincerely, Onesimus | ||
| David Oltmans |
In Revelation 10:7, we are told that when the seventh angel begins to sound his trumpet, then the mystery of God is completed. Of course the question is which mystery because we know that the NT explains some of the mysteries, such as the gospel going to the gentiles and the sending of the Holy Spirit. That leaves one mystery left to fulfill and it has to do with the resurrection of the saints. In 1 Cor 15:51 and following, you can read a detailed description of this event. So what's my point concerning the "rapture". The resurrection and the rapture are the same event. The resurrection of the saints immediately follows the Great Tribulation. Mt:24:29: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:" It is the first event that happens during the sounding of the seventh trumpet of God. I have numbered the subsequent events of the seveth trumpet here: Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, (2)The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16: And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17: Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. (3)"And the nations were angry, (4)and thy wrath is come, (5)and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, (6)and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; (7)and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth." I have found in this order of events the refutation of the EGW/SDA doctrine concerning whether or not we will be on the earth when Jesus returns. You will note that the third event of the 7th Trumpet is the outpouring of the wrath of God. Please note that the seveth vial of wrath is actually the second coming of Jesus Christ and that His followers are riding with Him. See Revelation 16:17 and Rev. 19:14 The SDA believe that we will be on the earth without an intercessor during this time. In otherwords we will go thru the outpouring of God's wrath. But this is a false doctrine which countradicts the Scriptures., In 1Thess. 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9: For God HATH NOT appointed us to WRATH, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10: Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11: Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do." Pretty cool, huh? Jesus promised to never leave us so we will get to watch these events from the safety of heaven. I'll trust God to show you what He has shown me. Chase down the topic of Jesus' appearing on a cloud, (the sign of the Son of Man). Note the timing of this appearance and His teaching ofthe parables concerning the harvest, the foolish virgins and the harvest in Revelation 11. Have fun. | ||
| Bruce H |
Timo K I have done a little research on the Rapture (Harpotzo) and will give you details when I come back from Vacation in one week. I just dont have time now. I will tell you that the rapture is a study of ecclesiology and not escatology. BH |
