| Author | Message | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Timo, Onesimus, David, Bruce: After I froze my toes on the Wgasa Bush Line 9:00 last night at the WAP (it runs among lions, tigers, cheetas, rhinoceroses, zebras, giraffes, antelope, cape buffaloes, elephants, wild horses, asses, mountain sheep and rock goats, etc.), I came home, slept, went to church this Sunday morning, and heard a stirring sermon: It was on Jesus Christ being both 100% God and 100% human. Lots of implications. The line that struck deepest was this one: "He has no predecessor and no successor!" I can't tell you why, but a thrill shot through me at that point. Oh, and I also got a couple of hundred volts from his parting words: "I don't want you to miss Christmas!" Now, to the "rapture": At this point I'm not able to help much except to say that the word "rapture" doesn't appear in any of the Bible versions I checked: (1) American Standard Version, (2) King James Version, (3) New American Standard Version, (4) New International Version, or (5) New King James Version. Conclusion: Dry hole. I might as well have been checking for "Y2K"! I'm leery already. Thanks for the good work you've all done on this subject so far. I want to hear more from each one of you. "We are God's fellow workers" (1 Corinthians 3:9, NIV), Jude | ||
| Timo K. |
David and all who answered on "rapture", thanks. I really needed the 7:th trumpet events numbered. Also the book "the Final Drama" is on my list of reading. I have a feeling that adventist end time events are not all together Biblical. Jude, I am also interesting in wild-life. Maybe adventist teaching of tribulation is pretty wild also. Bruce, looking forward to see your research on the Rapture. I think that there is something important in looking "rapture as a study of ecclesiology and not escatology." I might need to study the "end time" stuff from the scratch (hope the word is spelled right). Thanful for your thoughts. timo | ||
| Cas |
Hey guys, A strange conversation sticks in my mind back when I was having a pre baptismal discussion with my pastor (yes I was re-baptized into the sda church a few years ago!) I mentioned to him the verse in Matthew that speaks of the end of days when the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give her light and the stars will fall, and mind you this says immediately after the tribulation. Anyway I told him I did not think this had taken place yet, and he responded with it is a dual application prophecy! Isn't that convienient to say that when your prophecy does not come to pass!! It is still beyond me why Adventist's stick to their belief that these prophicies have been fulfilled. But I guess the real reason why they have to stick to it is because Ellen White said so, so that settles it forever!! | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Cas, Thanks for joining what seems to have become an all-male conversation. You said, "Hey, guys." But to your point: When your prophet's prophecies don't come true you can always find an excuse to, "make it all better," to "make the hurt go away." This is true of EGW in many cases. Another instance: She prophesied to a group of fellow SDAs some 100 or so years ago, Some will be "food for worms," but some would be alive when Jesus comes. Ask an EGW defender today about that, and if you get any answer at all it will go something like this: The promises and threatenings of God are all conditional. Bottom line: WE didn't do OUR JOB and so therefore Jesus COULDN'T come! Poor helpless pathetic little anemic Jesus! Talk about denigrating the sovereignty of the God-Man [Emanuel] who said, ìIf these would hold their peace [not announce his coming], the stones would immediately cry out!î (Luke 19:40)! And of whom John the Baptist said, ìGod is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abrahamî (Matthew 3:9). O faithless and legalistic Adventism! WEíVE got to do it or it wonít get done! When ìitî doesnít happen, excuses abound. And no small amount of self-hatred and self-pity is included in the rationalistic mix. For in a such a pitifully weak belief system it is always WE who are either "good enough" (thus to receive the credit) or "not good enough" (thus to receive the blame)! The spotlight is always on US and what WE are doing or failing to do! The One who's name shall bae called, "Wonderful, Counselor, the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father" is reduced to a footnote, if present at all. Could any belief system be more self-oriented and narcissistic? Anybody have any other examples you'd like to share? Jude | ||
| Colleentinker |
I have to say the subject of the rapture is not clear cut to me. One thing I learned last summer when we took a class in Revelation from our pastor Gary Inrig was that to the greater Christian community, "rapture" is synonynmous with Jesus taking his people to heaven when he comes. "Secret rapture" is a specific doctrine that does not necessarily equal "rapture". As Inrig said, he was trained to believe in a pre-tribulation rapture in which the church would be taken to heaven before the triublation came on the world. He admitted, however, that the more he studies, the less absolutely certain he is that it will happen that way. He also pointed out that the Bible is a bit vague on the subject, and the timing of the (not necessarily secret) rapture is open to interpretation. He did say that the Bible says God's people will not suffer the wrath of God, and Revelation talks about the wrath of God being poured out on the world at the end of the tribulation. I admit that I'm not certain exactly what will happen when. I am definitely open to the idea that the church may be taken out of the world before the tribulation is over, and that's a new position for me. But I'm not certain about it. Revelation certainly suggests that the "rapture" as we were taught it is not accurate. But I'm not able to find anything that absolutely pins down the sequence of events. I'm still learning! | ||
| David |
It is difficult for us to sometimes see the order of the events that God has given to us as "mile markers" (or "kilometer markers" for our metric friends) concerning the "wherefores" of prophetic events. But Jesus promised us that if He would teach us His doctrine if we become like little children, that is we are not to be wise in our own eyes or estimation. I remember when I was a little kid that my opinions reflected those of my Daddy. He like Ford cars so I liked Ford cars. I can recall now that every early childhood opinion of mine hinged upon what Daddy thought about the topic of consideration. It is the same for us today if we don't get puffed up and think about how "correct" our beliefs are. How many SDA and other religious people are trapped in the circular arguments of their denominations? Too many! SDA will ever think that they will have to stand on the earth as the wrath of God is poured out, even though the Bible clearly states otherwise. The SDA doctrine negates the Word of God because it is the opinion of man, not God's teaching. The result is confusion. It is the same with other denominations and their unbiblical doctrines, like the "secret rapture", that confuse and hinder the flock of God from properly understanding His Word and instruction. Openmindedness to the promptings of the Holy Spirit is the only way that we can ever hope to understand eternal things, especially the prophetic. Casting ourselves upon His mercy and leadership are the only way that we will ever progress in our understand of eternal things. The simple fact is this: nobody has all of the answers concerning the "resurrection/rapture" of the church. But God is not done with us yet. He is looking for those who are tired of what the world says about His appearing and coming and who will come to Him and learn His truth concerning the event(s). Personally, I think that the "oil" that goes into the lamps of the five foolish virgins is the world's explanation of the second coming of Jesus. That is why the five wise virgins cannot give share with them their oil and that is why they tell the five foolish virgins to "go to the merchants and buy more oil." The two oils are not compatible. The merchants I believe are those who are "peddling" the Word of God for profit. Of course their opinions are from their own understanding their doctrines are false and misleading. Paul said in 1Cor. that the jews demanded a sign and the greeks knowledge (or wisdom), both of which were contrary to the gospel and both of which rendered the gospel "foolishness" to their proponents. In otherwords, they were not willing to chuck what they thought was the truth for the real God revealed truth. It is bad news for us that every generation makes the same mistakes in this regard. Personally, I have fought this battle and I have been able to chuck probably 80% of the leaven of other people's opinions concerning the "rapture". The other 20% worries me, so I never get too cocksure of myself except to say what I think the Bible speaks very clearly about, and then I caution the person to prayerfully check it out for Himself. I believe that the Holy Spirit wants to be our Teacher. He doesn't want people to be reliant upon human teachers because the flesh leavens His message. We do this unconsciencely and sincerely because we are human. Only as we let the Spirit teach us will we become conformed to His doctrine. And since it is His doctrine, there will be nothing for the flesh to latch onto and tell others "Look at me!! Look at what I know!" I do believe that God raises up Godly teachers on every topic that is of importance to His church. You will know these teachers because what they say will be what God says about it AND the information that they impart will come free of charge. And they will always, always point you to the Holy Spirit's ministry in your life so that He can validate if the doctrine is of God or of the flesh. | ||
| Onesimus |
Jude and Timo: Yes, you are correct. "Rapture" does not appear in any English translation of the Bible. 2 Thessalonians 4:17 states, "After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." RAPTURE is the Latin word for "caught up." As for other biblical words not in Scripture, trinity is not there either but the concept is everywhere. Happy studying to you as you unravel distortions and embrace biblical "ecclesiology." Still on the welcoming committee, Onesimus |
