| Author | Message | ||
| tom norris |
This is a good and necessary site. Some studies have shown that there are millions of former SDAs out there in North America. No doubt! I personally know hundreds of friends and classmates, including many ministers and church workers, who have left the church. The Denomination has been "melting down" for the last twenty years--ever since they choose to exile Dr. Ford and the Gospel. Today, things are worse then ever as gross mismanagement and corruption have become routine. A total collapse of all the church's institutions may not be far away. This is truly a crisis situation. While I am not a prophet, I think that the next twenty year stretch will find the denomination either extinct or greatly reformed. I hope it is the latter. But if things are not properly planned and executed now, it will be the former. Tom Norris | ||
| Praise999 |
Tom, I hear concern in your message. I'd like to make a distinction that involves the object of concern. I'm concerned for people associated with a demoninational institution in crisis, not the institution itself. Don't worry, the institution will make modifications. Throughout its history, it has modified the way it presents itself and it will continue to do so until the end of time. This institution is exceedingly sensitive to the prevailing winds and its sails can be adjusted accordingly. Actually there are many sailors anxious to trim the sails and keep the ship moving. My concern is for the countless number who get knocked in the head when the boom comes around. Their senses become numb and their sense of direction confused. If the boom doesn't knock them overboard, they may still fall into the vast, dark, cold water because they are disoriented. Jesus didn't come to reform Judism; nor is he calling us to reform Adventism. Jesus came to incarnate God and to bring people into a saving relationship with himself through the Holy Spirit. Those of us that value human beings above insitutions are called to swim in that vast, dark, cold water, offering hope, encouragement, and warmth to those gasping for air. | ||
| tom norris |
Praise: I am very worried that orginized Adventism will not make the necessary "modifications" that you assume. Your statement that "This institution is exceedingly sensitive to the prevailing winds and its sails can be adjusted accordingly" is far too optimistic. This institution has been fighting the gospel and the scriptures for years and I don't see any signs that the fight is over. This institution will fight to keep its' power and control no matter what. It will not make any adjustments unless it is forced to do so. And until there is meaningful reform, the people will continue to suffer with the guilt and theological confusion that swirls around this dying community. However, reforming Adventism will indeed benifit the "countless number" who have been abused by this (obviously) corrupt and outdated denomination and prevent others from becoming so abused. As for Jesus work, He is the one who orginized the church. He is the one who gave the instructions to the apostles who wrote it down for our benifit. There is nothing wrong with orginization. And yes, he did come to reform judaism and that reformation was called the church. Thank heaven that we live in a world that allows us the freedom to start our own church orginization if the one we once trusted has gone bad. But make no mistake, if you really want to help those drowning in the sea of life, an orginized rescue effort is required. Two choices seem obvious; the first is to reform Adventism, the second is to start a new and improved Adventism for the 21st century. Anything else is no soloution whatsoever. I can support either position. | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Dear Tom and Praise, Two prophets prophesying! I guess I'll make it three. Okay, all you literalists out there, I mean this in a light way. Or, in Allenette's phrase, "meant friendly." I think you're both right in the main. The situation is very complex. The institution is changing rapidly. Bet you never thought EGW's prophecy that "the final movements will be rapid ones," would be fulfilled not by the end of the world, but by the end of the denomination at least in North America! No, Tom, organization per se is not wrong, but the presumptious dividing of Christ into sects, cults and, yes, denominations, most certainly is wrong. See 1 Corinthians, Chapter 1. As regards the assets of the institution in the buildings, computers, pews, funds, administrative positions, etc. -- the SDA institution is indeed in trouble. For example, Atlantic Union College is teetering on the brink of receivership. Columbia Union College is begging the US government for $$$$ and more $$$$ while swearing up and down that the school IS NOT "pervasively religious." Well, there goes the old crumbly wall of separation between church and state. Pacific Press during the 50s and 60s was so plush with $$$$ that they had to create "shell accounts," such as "reserve for contingencies," to hide it from the church at large who might hunger for some of it. But a funny thing happened. After the Merikay 10-year-long litigation (equal pay for women for equal work by women) the Press almost went into bankruptcy. There were a lot of reasons. Paying women for what they were worth wasn't one of them. Loma Linda University and Medical Center is also in financial hot water, recently having to cut pay for nurses and administrators and curtail certain services. Stated reason: the HMOs aren't paying like they used to do. Unstated solution: More government money in the form of research grants. This is a highly positive development if it is carried out. The down side: You have to hire more and more non-SDA researchers to do the work, because the denomination doesn't have that kind of depth of resource. The current president, Jan Paulson, recently wrote in the Review that there is a tremendous shortfall in the number of qualified PhDs to teach in SDA colleges and universities in North America. And projections into the future loom worse on this score rather than better. These effects are being seen and will continue to be seen in declining enrollments, due in no small part to bright SDA academy and high school seniors who seek non-SDA schools to prepare them for careers that the SDAs cannot begin to prepare them for. Doctors, nurses, and ministers okay. But for scientists, engineers, attorneys, etc., you'd better look elsewhere if you want to prepared to enter Harvard Business School or Stanford School of Law! I could go on and on with other examples, but these serve to make the point. Furthermore the denomination in North America is aging. I've been to a huge number of churches and I've personally noted the disproportionate numbers of elderly compared to all other age groups. And it is changing color. From white to brown to black in North America. Not that bringing in other colors is bad for them. It's that drain on middle age and younger whites that is bad for them. Also, the fact that membership in North America is hovering around 900,000 for the past few decades -- while growning to 10,000,000 worldwide -- doesn't bode well for the church. My point is, whill the browns and the blacks also become disillusioned and begin to drift away? Or, more likely, simply fail to baptize and hold the kids? There is also the problem of North America being responsible for 80% of the worldwide $$$$, while maintaining less than 10% of church population. I think that in the long run the church will shrink as members age and go to their eternal home and as new young members wane. Ever heard of the Shakers? Furthermore, history is full of examples of apocalyptic movements that sprouted, reached maturity, and then died. Well, I have to go bye-bye for now. More later. Jude | ||
| tom norris |
Jude: Don't be fooled. The SDA denomination is a billion dollar giant. While it is dying, it is still a formidible institution that has tremendous resources and cash flow--as well as some exellent doctrines and eschatological insights. As for your true statement that "the presumptious dividing of Christ into sects, cults and, yes, denominations" is not God's will, it is nevertheless a reality that will not go away. But the bottom line is that the Adventist movement needs major gospel reform. That should be the focus and the objective. There is no excuse for this crisis to continue. Reform Adventism, that is the best plan. | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Tom: The denomational bean counters are keeping their mouths shut about net worth, but a good stock broker could probably estimate net worth reasonably close even without access to "the books." As for the "billion dollar giant," consider this: Divide a billion (1,000,000,000) dollars by ten million (10,000,000) members and you end up with a pathetic $100 per person. I do think your estimate is low, though, and that the SDA denomination is more like a multi-billion dollar multi-national corporation. Nor would I argue that the adventist movement needs no major gospel reform, but I question whether it has EVER heard the gospel, that it has been anti-gospel from its inception. If Christ is "the end of the law," then the "handwritten form of the law," the Torah or first five books of the bible, was taken "out of the way" and "nailed to the cross." Collossians 2:14. Jesus Christ is the now law written on the fleshy tablets of our hearts. As long as the SDAs hang on to the mandatory Sabbath and other Old Testament law, such as clean and unclean foods, it cannot be fully gospel. Nor -- if it's 150 year history is any guide -- will it ever, as a movement, be capable of sustaining a major gospel reform. It's too fragile. It would, instead, react the way the Jews reacted to Jesus Christ. As Jesus said, You cannot pour new wine into brittle old wineskins without bursting them (as part of the fermentation processes used at that time). So you must pour new wine into strong and flexible new wineskins that will expand with the expanding bio-chemical process. Here is the key problem with major gospel reform: You have to confront a movement that has never been comfortable with the gospel, that mixes its legalism in with the gospel in insidious ways, thus nullifying the gospel, that says, "if you do away with the law, what do you have left?" If you answer, "Jesus the Christ," then the standard SDA response is, "Then you can go out and do anything you want." There is no conception of the moral and spiritual laws in which the New Testament abounds: love your enemies, love one another with unconditional love, do not be sexually immoral, etc., far more of these kinds of laws than are contained in the entire Old Testament. And, by the way, in all the vast number of new testament laws -- manifestations of the character of Jesus Christ -- there is no hint of, "Remember the 7th day to keep it holy." Instead, Paul says it doesn't matter which day you keep or even if you keep all days alike. But SDA blindness renders it immune to the gospel. I know, "With God all things are possible." And I wouldn't want to say major gospel reform is impossible. But God gives us freedom of choice, and since its inception Adventism has consistently chosen against the gospel. With counterfit gospels abounding, such as Voice of Prophecy, Net-90-Somethings, Amazing Facts, etc., etc., etc., the movement clearly shows no stomach for the true gospel. And, after all, it was Jesus himself who said, "You compass land and sea to make one convert, and when he is made you make him twice the child of hell that you yourselves are. Jude | ||
| Richard Tinker |
Adventism is based on a lie. Reforming Adventism would be continuing the coverup that started after the "great disapointment" in 1843-44, etc. When God told the Israelites to take the promised land, he didn't have them "reform" the pagan inhabitants! Likewise we are to leave that which is tainted, and walk into the fullness of God's grace and truth. When Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to the church after his resurection and ascension, a whole new way of living with God began. This was no reform, it was completely new. As Hebrews says, Jesus was a priest in the order of Melchizedek, not of Levi, and with a new priesthood comes a change in the law. I've noticed that everyone that I know who has seen the light and left Adventism has gone through a phase of feeling the call to reform the church. Like I've said on another thread, I've had many more chances to influence Adventists since I've left. |
