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Timo K.
Posted on Saturday, December 25, 1999 - 10:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jude and Richard, in essence I agree with what you say about the SDA-church. It is anti-Gospel and based on the "lie" of the great disapointment. While this is true, also the enormous Power of the Gospel is true. The Holy Spirit is powerful to change, if we let. Saul, the pharisee, became Paul.

If enough people claim the Blood of Christ as their only basis of salvation, and accept the Babtism of the Holy Spirit, that would affect the church, even though the church as a whole would not completely change.

Humanly speaking, I am also very pessimistic about SDA to become a Gospel Church. But there is always a Power greater than us human beings, Who can do miraculous wonders. Aren't we all a miracle of God's grace. For our Lord there are no hopeless people or hopeless Churches. The only thing Jesus asks is to let Him in.

It does't matter who is inside the door, Jesus is knocking, and who so ever opens the door, He will come in to the heart and will stay as long as we let Him stay.

JESUS HAS ALL THE POWER IN BOTH HEAVEN AND EARTH. From this we should start our thinking, and not from the hopelessness of the situation.

timo
David the Gullible
Posted on Saturday, December 25, 1999 - 12:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Could somebody please tell me where I can find an explanation of the "excellent doctrines and eschatological insights" of the SDA church? I was there for only 8 long years and the only "insights" that the SDA church held as unique to itself were just as speculative as some of the other mainstream churches.
ton norris
Posted on Saturday, December 25, 1999 - 12:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jude: I agree; Adventism IS a multi-national, multi-billion $$ empire, but it is run more like communism before that multi-billion $$ empire crashed and burned. Yet I disagree that Adventism has never heard the gospel. Adventism understood the gospel when it first started under William Miller. The movement heard it again in 1888 and rejected it. In the 20th century, Dr. Ford clearly articulated the gospel to the SDA church, and they rejected it once again and exiled both Dr. Ford and the Gospel. (That's why you can't find the gospel in the 27 fundamentals today.)

Also, when we talk about gospel reform, that does not mean getting rid of the law. If it did, then you would also get rid of sin. We could then murder, commit adultery, worship other gods etc. and still have paradise too. Sin and heaven--all together--forever. I don't think so? Without the law there is no need for the gospel. The law can never be removed as a standard for behavior or the judgment and the definition of sin. That does not have to mean that we are saved by keeping the law for that is an impossibility. We are saved only because Jesus kept it perfectly in our place and we accept his obedience in place of our lack thereof.

Gospel reform means doing away with the unbiblical tithe system that has suffocated the membership and stolen our freedom in Christ. There is no such thing as the SDA hierarchical organizational system in the NT. So that is the biggest reform that you can bet will be fought tooth and nail against. The gospel also needs to be a part of the "27" and a number of the "27" need major overhaul and updating, including how the end of the world will take place. But under no circumstances can the law (or the Sabbath) be removed from the Adventist Apocalyptic, although the definition of sabbath keeping will be dramatically changed and liberalized. We are not Jews.

Richard, you are in error my friend. Adventism was built on cutting edge eschatological reform that was valid then and is still valid today. Miller was the one who discovered that the 2nd coming was to be literal and real--as well as imminent. He was wrong about the time--but he was dead correct about the method at a time when no one taught such a "strange" doctrine. In fact, most every denomination has now adopted Miller's basic fundamental doctrine that is the basis for historical Adventism! Few people know this fact.

Moreover, to "see the light" is to see the gospel and understand how it works. When that happens the confused gospel of the 3rd angels message is doomed and it's eschatological formulations no longer make sense. However, this does not do away with eschatology or the 2nd coming, but forces us to refine and update how those events will actually take place in the 21st century. That's why it is silly to abandon the Advent movement instead of reforming it's many historical theological advances. Adventism is a valid historical, Protestant movement that needs major updating. We may disagree on HOW to reform the movement, but we can agree that it needs to be reformed. Don't you agree?
Bruce H
Posted on Saturday, December 25, 1999 - 2:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ton Norris
What is the Gospel?
Ton I did not know that ERROR was cutting edge.
Bruce H
Posted on Saturday, December 25, 1999 - 2:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tom Norris
On reforming the Adventist Church?
Matt 15:14 Let Them alone. They are blind
leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the
blind, both will fall into a ditch.

BH
tom norris
Posted on Saturday, December 25, 1999 - 7:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bruce: The gospel is the good news that jesus has obeyed the law perfectly for every man and woman when he was on earth 2,000 years ago. Moreover, at that time He also died for all our sins and thus paid the penalty for all past, present, and future sins of the race. Both of these actions--obediance and sacrifice- make up the gospel, which, if we believe assures us of acceptance with God right now and immortality one day. Considering the fact that we will all be dead with in few decades or so, I would think the gospel has great value.

The "cutting edge" portion of Millers "breakthru" was the actual doctrine about the 2nd coming which we all now take for granted. But in Miller's day, no one taught or believed in a literal second coming like we do today. It was unheard of. It was stunning. It was very upsetting. That's why it made history. The fact that a "time" for this newly discovered day of judgment was actually set just heightened the drama and worked to promote this new controversial doctrine. But as I said before, Millers doctrine has now been adopted by all and many have also adopted his point about "time" which Miller always thought would be very soon and in his lifetime. This was also radical as everyone in Miller's day thought that the last day events (such as they envisioned) were ten centuries away!

So don't get all confused about the time error, rather be proud of the Adventist discovery which has dramatically changed the eschatological landscape and paved the way for the protestant church to better understand how the final events will really take place. There is a lot more work for the Advent movement still to do. The world is obviously heading for some grand climax, so why not play our proper part?

Matt 15: 14 is about the Pharisees. The very ones who had been responsible for abusing the scriptures and controlling the people and making religion a bad joke. This bunch cannot reform anything. They are corrupt and make up their own rules to keep control. So it is today. Reform will not come from within the SDA leadership. Those on the payroll do not have the courage to speak the truth. And if they did, they would be gone. Today's Adventist leaders are the "blind guides" who should not be followed by anyone. But we must remember, Adventism is a historic movement. It is owned by the people within the movement--It is NOT OWNED by a bunch of administrators who want to play church for a living. There needs to be a top to bottom house cleaning so the movement can go forward. It is time to Reform Adventism!
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Saturday, December 25, 1999 - 8:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Tom:

The Adventist empire has never heard the gospel because it has always been deaf to the gospel. William Miller preached a form of legalism -- you have to DO something -- get ready -- in order to be saved. Ellen White "validated" this error with her visions. James White helped to codify the error in a form that, embarrassingly enough, could not be honestly changed later, but had to be covered up with the false doctrine of the "shut door" and the "investigative judgment." Others, such as Hiram Edson of "vision in the cornfield" fame, also pitched in to save the error from public exposure and ridicule.

In 1888 Jones and Waggoner tried to mix the gospel in with the legalism, and ultimately succeeded. But the gospel remained and remains impure to this day and is thus self-invalidating.

In the late 70s and early 80s Des Ford tried and failed to expunge this deadly error and saw his career in the church destroyed. But Ford hung on to the mandatory (as opposed to optional) Sabbath and thus even he preaches a polluted and impure gospel.

I certainly agree that you can't find the pure gospel in the 27 points of fundamental belief, but adding it would only mix the gospel with the legalism and thus pollute it.

Yes, gospel reform does indeed mean getting rid of the law. Christ did get rid of sin by becoming sin for us. We do not murder, commit adultery, or worship other gods because Christ Himself becomes the law written on the fleshy tablets of our hearts.

And, yes, we do have paradise now. Luke 17:21-22. Yes, we do have sin and heaven together right now. Romans 7:7 - 8:4. But this will not be the case forever, for "when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away." 1 Corinthians 13:10.

Nor are we saved because Jesus kept the law. You will search Scripture in vain for any such support. We are saved by Jesus' blood. Period.

Jesus Christ's perfect keeping of the law of Moses gave him, and not us, the right to die and be resurrected. "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!" Revelation 5:12.

I like you concept, Tom, of accepting Christ's obedience (righteousness) in place of our own, but we must also accept his death in place of our own.

The tithing system is not unbiblical, but very biblical. Lev. 27:30, 32. Num. 18:26. Deut. 12:27, 14:22,23,28. 2 Chron. 31:5,6. Neh. 10:38, 13:12, and at least 27 other places in Scripture. But it, like the mandatory 7th-day Sabbath, clean vs. unclean foods, etc., was indeed a part of the "handwritten form of the law" (written with the finger of God), the bond that was canceled, which stood against us with its legal demands, which "he set aside, nailing it to the cross." Colossians 2:13,14.

And, no, the gospel cannot be a part of the 27 points of fundamental belief. That's like saying the whole elephant must be a part of the creature's right front foot!

Nor is it within our human province to update how the end of the world will take place. God, and not the denomination, is sovereign and as such will take good care of the end of the world and its entire scenario. For if we are already living in the kingdom of God, then God's scenario' need not concern us. Our only part is to obey Christ's "new commandments" found throughout the New Testament. "Love one another without conditions." "Love our enemies." "Shun sexual immorality, etc."

One of the intractible problems of SDAism is people who, for example, are paying a faithful tithe, guarding the edges of the Sabbath, but all the time are "sleeping around" because they are bored with their mate or are sexually abusing their own children.

That shows you how powerful the law is to save, and why the law cannot be a part of the gospel: It doesn't work!

Sabbathkeeping cannot be "dramatically changed and liberalized." All it ever was was a shadow pointing to the Jesus Christ to come. "The substance belongs to Christ." Colossians 2:17. And it along with the law in its entirety was set aside and nailed to the cross! Colossians 2:14.

After writing this bold assertion, Paul even chides the Colossians by saying, Let no one (meaning the SDAs of his time) pass judgment on you in questions of food (such as pork) and drink (such as alcoholic wine) or with regard to a festival (such as Christmas or Easter) or a new moon (monthly festival) or a (seventh-day weekly) Sabbath!

Adventism was not built on "the cutting edge of esdchatological reform," but on a pastiche of erroneous biblical interpretations, invalid then and still invalid today.

Miller did not discover the 2nd coming as literal and real. That belief has been bedrock Christianity from the first century onward. Miller's only discovery was that of timing, thus doing violence to the Scripture which clearly said, "Ye know neither the day nor the hour." Matt. 25:13.

I'm not sure, Tom, what you mean by: Miller "was dead correct about the method at a time when no one taught such a 'strange' doctrine." But if you mean Christ's literal coming in the clouds, you couldn't possibly be more wrong, both historically and theologically.

Finally, we are not forced to "refine and update: how eschatological events will take place in the 21st, the 22nd, the 23rd, the 24th, or any other future century. What makes us think we have the right to even think about telling God what to do?

The whole Advent movement is a castle of sand that needs to be swept away by the cleansing tsunami of the gospel.

Jude

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