| Author |
Message |
Margie
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2000 - 5:40 pm: |     |
Hi all, ( DJ, an answer at the bottom of all this for you!)
Wow, when I posted before I had not read the entire discussion, only the most resent. You all (okay I'm a southern caught in the North!) are intellectuals, real thinkers, Bible students, researchers, etc.! I'm impressed and very, very blessed by what I have been reading. I'm just a "plain Jane" thinker but love to read and talk about the Bible!---Uh, well, I love to read and talk period! The Holy Spirit lead me out of Adventism and legalism in a wonderful way. It's not that I don't or haven't studied but just not the in-depth kind of study it sounds like most of you have done. I think my understanding that "something ain't right" evolved over time. Last year the SDA pastor of the local church was discussing the evangelistic meetings and was saying that two teen age girls had come to Christ but hadn't made the decision for baptism yet as they hadn't given up their jewelry! That statement just didn't sit right with me. What does a necklace have to do with your salvation!? No, I didn't (at that time)or had never worn jewelry--never had a desire to do so but somehow I knew that my Bible didn't seem to teach that. My mind was questioning but always I thought the Sabbath was Biblical and EGW was a prophet who was I to question this? Then I read the article in The Review--Bacchiochi defending the Sabbath. Well, I didn't think he did such a good job and I was shocked that an X SDA could write a book against Sabbath/Saturday keeping. I remembered somewhere that I had heard that an entire SDA church in the DC area had left the conference. I called long distance operator and somehow located the church and talked to one of the pastors for quite a while. I had a lot of questions about the Sabbath and EGW. I was excited and scared to death! I was on to something! But, it was unfamilar, unthinkable, did I dare explore further? I was "compeled" to do so, I couldn't stop now, I was 'hungry and thirsty' for truth and if 'truth' couldn't be tested then was it truth? Well, I won't bore you with the "rest of the story" at this posting except to say the Sabbath was a big thing for me to see. I read Ratzlaff's book and that was a hugh enlightenment for me but I still had questions so I kept talking to people and reading and then I purchased a computer! This site and other sites have answered those questions and doubts I may have had. Thanks, thanks, many times thanks to all of you.
DJ. The vinegar thing is found in "Counsels On Diet And Foods" page 345 paragraph 578.
Letter 9, 1997. "The salads are prepared with oil and vinegar, fermentation takes place in the stomach, and the food does not digest, but decays or petrefies; as a consequence, the blood is not nurished, but becomes filled with the impurities, and liver and kidney difficulties appear. [Personal experience in conquering the vinegar habit-Appendix I-6] The appendix in the back of the book is entitled "A battle Against The Vinegar Habit" Letter 70, 1911. It's a page or so--so I won't put it here. I remembered this because I went to a nutrition class at church which was based on this book. I had already read most of this book that is how I knew I was in trouble with my diet because I couldn't keep my diet straight as taught by EGW. Please understand that I am a hopless vegetarian today! I don't think that is bad but I now know that your diet has nothing to do with your salvation. I believed that before I left the SDA church but there was still (for me) that nagging feeling that I wasn't good enough as I didn't have good control over my diet even though I was a vegetarian.
My upbring wasn't all poor--although we were poor! I do have happy memories, my dad insisted we have family worship everyday and that was very good. We usually couldn't afford the SDA devotionals so he would have one of us kids (There were six) read a chapter from the BIBle and we would sing alot especially on Friday evenings and recite our favorite Bible verses. It was so fun! We always had a special soup Friday evenings and home made bread, and a wonderful Sabbath meal--my dad always had a "Branch SS" somewhere on Sabbath afternoons--those got to be a drag after a while. I really have good memories it's just that when my dad believed something he believed it all the way and tried to do everything just as EGW taught---what can I say---I did too, if I do something I want to do it right! In my opinion EGW is quite fananatical---never thought it at the time, I just did it. It was all I knew. It was very difficult to give up all that--I loved the Sabbath and all I thought it represented. I won't say more than that because I don't think what I think or believe is superior to what you may think or believe. I will say this, when I was released from all the legalism stuff, I could 'feel' a hugh burden roll off my back. I cannot explain the freedom I now have in Jesus Christ. I went back to basics, Jesus is enough! The reading of the Bible just hits me in the face, its so real and is meaningful. It seems before I would have to excuse some things because the words seemed to contradict what I believed. Every word is so precious.
Have to go! Time for a family meeting! More later?! |
Bmorgan
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2000 - 7:54 pm: | |
Oh Margie,
I can relate to about everything you said in your testimony. I am here to affirm you.Will respond to more later.
At the moment, I am listening to the charged up crowd in PA. (Enjoying the VP hopeful speech). I am distracted but just have to reach out and touch you.
In Christ ALONE
BMorgan |
Breezy
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2000 - 8:29 pm: | |
Margie,
If the Sabbath is meaningful to you than there is no reason for you to give it up. Just as long as you can realize that it is not what saves you. Everyone needs a day of rest where nothing will interfere with their communion with God. If you chose Sabbath Paul instructs us to not judge what day another person chooses to worship. If it is Saturday for you,fine. If it is Sunday for you,fine. Let every man be convinced in his own mind.
I am praying for you.
Wendy |
Colleentinker
| | Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2000 - 9:23 am: | |
Margie, I completely understand how you feel about finding the gospel! I absolutely loved the Sabbath; I felt sorry for people who "didn't have it".
Giving up that day was a deeply significant, life-changing event. For about two years we knew that the Sabbath day wasn't a New Covenant command, and we began worshiping (at home, at first) on Sunday instead. But we still set aside Saturday as a physical day of rest.
Because we were worshiping on Sunday, we began to suffer from not having a full weekend day to catch up on work at home. Even though we believed Saturday was not sacred, we couldn't bring ourselves to work on that day.
We finally realized that by using Saturday as a day of physical rest, we were, deep in our subconscious minds, holding onto the old fear that we really might be desecrating something sacred by violating it with work. We knew it wasn't necessary for our salvation, and we knew it wasn't a New Covenant command. We believed that Jesus was our Sabbath rest, not a day, but the habit and the motives and the fears ran deep. We had been trained to "observe" Saturday from the womb.
We finally realized that as far as we personally were concerned, we had to deliberately decide that we would work on Saturday in order to bring our intellectual belief into congruence with our spiritual convictions. We couldn't just talk and believe the truth but be deeply, emotionally bound to a habit that was attached to a deep fear that just maybe Saturday was special.
Not everyone struggles with the day in the same way. I'm sure our struggle was more intense than some people's is. But I'm also sure that our struggle is similar to that of many others.
For us, deciding to work on Saturday and deliberately refusing to rest then was our version of the early church's instruction to the new Gentile converts to abstain from meat offered to idols. Paul said that to him meat offered to idols was nothing. He could eat it with a clear conscience.
But those Gentiles had come out of pagan rituals in which the sacrificial meats were intimately tied into pagan worship practices and rites.
Paul could eat those meats offered to idols and have no habits, emotions, or superstitions kicking into gear in his head. He had been an observant Jew with absoltuely no ties to pagan gods or rituals.
The Gentiles, on the other hand, would experience a whole cascade of memories, habits, feelings, beliefs, fears, etc. if they ate sacrificial meats. It's somewhat analogous to a recovered alcoholic. S/he really cannot ever touch alcohol again without risking falling into the old habits. Someone who has never drunk is not likely to become alcoholic by tasting wine once.
For us, deliberately working on Saturday was our final liberation from a shadow into the reality of eternal, constant, ongoing rest in Jesus. What we have discovered is that we actually experience that consciousness of giving our decisions, pressures, problems, etc. to Jesus on a moment by moment basis. Both Richard and I remark to each other frequently that we actually live in rest and in a consiousness of Jesus' presence that we never could have imagined before. What we literally experience on a day-to-day basis is far more intense and liberating than the wonderful experience of Sabbath as a day ever was.
That being said, Paul does, as Wendy points out, instruct us not to judge each other in regards to a day. We must be fully convinced in our own minds. We of all people should know better than to judge anyone for a day of worship!
But we of all people should also know the reality of freedomóthe freedom of being subject to the Holy Spirit every moment of our lives. What an astonishing paradox!
In His grace,
Colleen |
Bmorgan
| | Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2000 - 1:28 pm: | |
Margie,
I just came back to say more to you, and after reading Colleen's post, there is ABSOLUTELY nothing that I can add.
I am constantly amazed about the way the Lord works. It's the Spirit teaching us. Isn't it?
<>You all (okay I'm a southern caught in the
North!) are intellectuals, real thinkers, Bible students, researchers, etc.! I'm impressed and very, very blessed by what I have been reading. I'm just a "plain Jane" thinker but love to read
and talk about the Bible!-<>
I feel like you Margie, or worst, (like a dunce) being in company with these biblical scholars on this forum. Man, I have a lot to, learn. I got a late start, but it is HIM I want to know, so I am open to His teaching.
God you all
BMorgan |
Maryann
| | Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2000 - 5:15 pm: | |
No! No! Morgan!;-(( You ARE a scholar! You just take on a different style! That is the style that God gave you! And if God gave it to you it is God given! I think that what God gives is more on the scholarly side than the un-scholarly side!! :-))
God doesn't "do" dunces! Well......., I guess if one considers Moses a dunce then it is okay to be a dunce.
Your style appeals to some that other people's styles don't. Not everyone can go with Max's style and he's a "scholar". Same with me, there are some that would just a soon not read anything I write. Soooooo, my style is also God given like everyone elses.
Bottom line, there is someone out there that God ment to SPECIFICLY read YOUR post.
;-))..........Maryann |
Margie
| | Posted on Monday, August 07, 2000 - 3:48 pm: | |
Hi Guys,
Been a few days--too busy sometimes---but thanks for your reply but most of all for your support and prayers. It's wonderful that most of you understand where I am.
I gave up Sabbath-keeping slowly--although, not as thoughtfully and carefully as you did Colleen. I don't feel "guilty" any more but I do think about it. When I could recognize/accept (stop being in deniel!) that EGW was not a true prophet it was the Sabbath issue I had to face next. I was taught to read the Bible in such a way so that Saturday was very much documented as the Sabbath. The study of the covenents was so revealing TO ME---to read the texts for what they say and to be able to obtain another understanding and probability of what true Sabbath rest represents. I never saw it before-never imagined it could be. It was a beautiful unveiling for me and yet a sadness prevailed for a while after--because of what I may had missed and because of what I knew I had to let go. It was quite a paradox for me. I do think Sabbath-keeping is a perfectly acceptable practice for those who desire to do so. When I am with certain members of my family on Saturday I respect how they keep the day.
Keep posting that scholarly stuff, I love it, even if I can't do it! Like BMorgan I want to learn and understand all I can about HIM. I thought I knew most and now I know I know nothing. Actually that is a very comforting thought! I'm open to learn but cautious--I want to test everything--it's all new!
He is a marvel! My favorite and best friend, the Lord Jesus Christ.
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the communion of the Holy Ghost be with you all. |
Bmorgan
| | Posted on Monday, August 07, 2000 - 5:25 pm: | |
Maryann,
Thanks for the affirmation. Mind if I say "I'm humbly dunce?":) Couldn't resist! Do you know what it like to be an astute student and teacher for years, then failed the basic test?
Praise God! It's wonderful to personally know the One who gives wisdom, knowledge and happiness. Christ Alone!
Oh, Maryann, I am glad you can affirm I am color blind even though I am not African-American, and there is no need to be patronizing to them either. Our identity is in Christ Alone, not skin color or imposed culture.
Maybe it was this song we sang repeatedly as children, that gave me confidence at an early age in who I am and what I think about people of different race. The song:
What color is God's skin?
My baby wants to know.
What color is God's skin.
It's black, it's yellow,
It's red it's white.
Everyone's the same,
In the good Lord's sight.
Do you like it? Add this one to your repetoire, girl.
George, I was not as fortunate as you to drink at the "colored only" water fountain, but did room with a few African Americans. That was quite an experience. Counts for something.
Margie, bless your soul. I feel a sweetness and joy exuding from you through cyberspace.
Oh boy! We need to lighten up some more. (No pun intended)
On the lighter side,
In Christ Alone
BMorgan |
Chyna
| | Posted on Monday, August 07, 2000 - 7:27 pm: | |
margie,
thanks so much for sharing your story! i felt really blessed by reading it. i have no adventist background except the contact i have had through adventists themselves. i learn more and more how the experiences transmutes from being under the law to under grace.
in Him,
Chyna |
Dale
| | Posted on Monday, August 07, 2000 - 8:07 pm: | |
Greetings to all from a "new" user. I recently posted my story and have followed much of the discussions for the past several weeks. Most of you are probably unaware, but you have been a great support as I continue to grow in His grace.
Margie, I especially appreciated your comments about letting go of the Sabbath. This is where I still must admit that I have my main struggles. If you have read my recent story, you can probably see that at the time I was still clinging to at least a creation Sabbath. My friend and teacher, Clay Peck, has a paper in the works on whether or not the Sabbath is required of New Covenant Christians which he shared with me 2 weeks ago. It has been very helpful, along with study and prayer, and has brought a change to my way of thinking. WOW! A 52 year lifetime of any habit is not easy to break! Praise God that the Holy Spirit works with each of us at a point in our lives when we are receptive to His will. I am so overjoyed with the TRUE gospel instead of the "gospel that is no gospel".
Free in Christ,
Dale Hand |
Patti
| | Posted on Monday, August 07, 2000 - 8:12 pm: | |
Hi, Dale!
Welcome to FAF!
Praise God that He could liberate you from 52 years of habit! (You know you truly beat the odds; most people cannot make a major change in their belief system after teenage!) And praise God that He revealed Himself to you in the Gospel! I rejoice with you.
Grace and peace,
Patti |
George
| | Posted on Monday, August 07, 2000 - 8:38 pm: | |
BMorgan,
Ohhh, that was good. You do have a way with words.
George |
Patti
| | Posted on Monday, August 07, 2000 - 9:04 pm: | |
Very true, George!
Thanks, BMorgan!
Patti |
Breezy
| | Posted on Monday, August 07, 2000 - 9:16 pm: | |
Dear Dale,
I am very glad you posted! I have been wondering since I read your story if you were someone I used to know. Did you attend the Longmont Colorado church back in the early 1980's? If you did, do you remember a pastor by the name of Don Whittle. If you do, I am his daughter Wendy Whittle(maiden name). My brother Kevin and I attended school with your boys at the little church school. Is your wife Gloria? Or was she? I am anxious to find out if this is a link to my past, as I have fond memories of Colorado.
Eagerly anticipating your response!
Wendy |
Dale
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2000 - 6:54 pm: | |
Hi Wendy!
I am indeed someone you used to know! Actually I attended Aurora SDA when your father was pastor. Gloria and I are still living in Denver, as is Jason. Travis is married, has a 1-year old daughter, and is very active at Grace Place. I'd love to talk with your dad sometime. Let me know how to get in contact with him! Good to hear from you!
Dale |
Breezy
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2000 - 7:23 pm: | |
Hi Dale!
This is so cool. After I posted, I realized that it was Aurora, not Longmont. Kinda hard to keep straight after so many moves. :) I am so excited to hear from you! It is good to hear that your family is doing so well. My dad would be thrilled to hear from you. If you will e-mail me at my web address hvnlybrz@netscape.net I would love to give you his address and phone number. He is going to be tickled pink. I will include your family in my prayers and I am looking forward to meeting with you in the kingdom once again.
God Bless you,
Wendy |
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