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Colleentinker
Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2000 - 5:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jude--what a great review! These are wonderful synopses you're doing--I like your passionate declarations of truth!
Bruce H
Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2000 - 6:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great Jude
I really enjoyed this one. Jesus is indeed above
the Law.
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2000 - 3:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Susan, Thomas, Cas, Colleen and Bruce: Ratzlaff's book has really helped me, and I wanted to share. I think the book needs even more exposure than it has had within Adventism. It is sorely needed. My hope is to have it all reviewed before January 14. --Jude
Cas
Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2000 - 7:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You know I have been wanting to tell you Redlanders that I am from Yucaipa and my Mom lives in Redlands. I visit on occasion from Northern CA. I am sorry I can't make it to hear Dale Ratzlaff, will you guys be letting us know how the meeting goes?

Sometimes I wonder why The Lord has not made some of these doctrinal points easier to understand. Take for instance the Sabbath issue, which I still have a lot of study to do, but, I see good points on both sides of the issue. I admire Dr. Des. Ford (a sabbath keeper) and there are many anti sda sites out there that are also sabbath keepers.
I am enjoying reading Sabbath In Crisis as I did Cultic Doctrine of the SDA's by Dale also.
I guess just keep on praying and studying is the answer!
Can someone tell me how one goes about taking your membership off the records of the sda church?
Bless you all.
Susan
Posted on Friday, January 07, 2000 - 1:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jude, what a powerful statement you made on the 4th, in your review of chpt.8 #3. "...let Jesus be God!", AMEN! Yes, Jesus broke the sabbath and he also broke our need to keep it. Doesn't it seem amazing that a perfect, holy and sinless God, would do such a thing that was considered a sin? Wouldn't that indicate that if almighty God can do it, it must not be a sin?

I often struggled with this story of Jesus, when I was sda. As a child I was being taught that to break the sabbath would be considered a sin. But Jesus did it. Like the other "can't do's", (eat meat, drink wine, dance etc.) their teachings were always contradicting what I would read in the bible. Did anyone else ever have these similar doubts growing up sda? I often praise God that even as a child, His holy and inerrant word would speak to me, and that contradictory teachings would raise questions in my mind.

When you really grasp who Jesus is, it transforms everything in your life. The power of the Holy Spirit in us, can open our eyes to the truths of scripture like never before.

Anyway, thank you Jude for your wonderful proclamation of this essential truth. God bless!
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Friday, January 07, 2000 - 3:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cas, God bless you! You come across as so honest and sincere that I'm encouraged and uplifted. And you also gave me an idea.

When Dale Ratzlaff speaks I will take notes and post a review on formeradventist.com. He's going to speak on "Whatever Happened to the Law." As far as my opinion is concerned, Dale is the "best we've got" on the subject of "law and the gospel" from a former Adventist perspective. Much better than Ford, for example. And so I'm anxious to hear his latest thinking.

You posted: "I often struggled with this story of Jesus, when I was SDA. As a child I was being taught that to break the Sabbath would be considered a sin. But Jesus did it. Like the other "can't do's", (eat meat, drink wine, dance etc.) their teachings were always contradicting what I would read in the Bible. Did anyone else ever have these similar doubts growing up SDA?"

Yes, I think your struggles with the SDA community beliefs and practices are common to us all. No meat, no shrimp cocktail or clam chowder, no movies, no dancing, no swimming on Sabbath, no jewelry, no wine with dinner, no bearing of arms to defend one's country in war -- all seemed to me to run contrary to a real understanding of the Bible. And yet we were all so "imprinted" and aculturated that we all felt guilt and shame. It's because SDAs have little idea of what "true religion and undefiled before God" is all about.

We've got to understand, though, that just pushing over the traces is no answer. We must first find Jesus to be "the way, the truth and the life" and let the Holy Spirit lead us before we can safely decide which cultural practices we are going to adopt.

Where Ratzlaff has been such an enormous benefit to "formers" and "marginals" is his clear-eyed perception of moral law (love, justice, kindness, purity) as distinguished from ceremonial and civil law (Sabbath-keeping, "clean" and "unclean" foods, etc.) found in the Old Testament, Sister White, and 150 years of SDA teachings.

We need to live moral lives and to learn not to feel imappropriate guilt, and even shame, for doing things that are really not wrong: dancing, wearing jewelry, eating clam chowder, going to see "The Green Mile" and other appropiate movies, mowing the lawn or raking leaves or shoveling snow or going shopping on Sabbath, etc. These things are not wrong. But we have to know where to draw lines for ourselves, to recognize and honor the rights and opinions of others who don't agree with us, to be always a Christian witness, etc.

No, it's not easy, and we need prayer, Bible study, and fellowship with other believers probably more than we think we do. Otherwise we will do as so many others have done and are doing -- "going off the deep end" and in so doing giving SDAs ammunition to use against us.

As far as "taking your membership off the records of the SDA church" is concerned, all you need to do is to write a letter to your church -- addressed to the pastor or even to the clerk. Or you could call and make an appointment to talk with the pastor. Better yet, take him to lunch as Colleen and Richard Tinker did with their pastor. Be honest and Christian and look him right in the eye. Another way is to requst a transfer of membership to the Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist, Catholic, or other church you are attending. I'm sure the pastor of your new church would be happy to write that letter for you.

And again, you may decide not to have your name officially removed. Many former Adventists just join a new non-Adventist congregation by reciting the Apostle's Creed or by being re-baptized and they just don't bother with officially removing their name from the SDA membership rolls.

But remember, always, YOU are the one exercising your freedom in Christ. It's YOUR choice. Some, such as myself, still attend church on both Sabbath and Sunday. We need to respect and even reverence all choices under the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.

God bless you more and more, Cas,

Jude
Lydell
Posted on Friday, January 07, 2000 - 3:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, now comes the REALLY big questions. You submit your letter of resignation from the church (or in our case, David preached a sermon in which he told them we were leaving...you would not believe the number of folks who came out the door and asked me, "what did he say?" Gee, how hard can it be to comprehend, "we're outta here"? ha. That's fine and dandy. What I want to know is how the heck you get off all the SDA mailing lists?! Geez, our names haven't been on the church roles for over 10 years now! I've even written letters to some of these people and the pleas for money keep coming. I've finally taken to copying several choice EGW compared to the Bible quotes and stick them in the envelope and mail it back to them. I figure some "lowly" secretary somewhere just may read it and start doing some thinking.

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