| Author | Message | ||
| David |
Jude, that question takes us back to the whole subject of whether we should reject the real movement and manifestation of the Holy Spirit in today's world simply because the enemy may have a counterfeit going. We do not go thru our pocketbooks every time we get change to see if we have accumulated counterfeit money. Faith must grow somewhere in our desire to hear God's voice so that we can be empowered to reach beyond our understanding and to accomplish His mission of mercy for this world. I am thinking of the 70 victorious disciples who returned to Jesus and marveled at the power that He had bestowed upon them. There has to be a balance. We cannot be manifestation driven as our focus for the sake of the power of God. Jesus said that we were to rejoice that our names are recorded in heaven. But, and this is a huge "but", we must remain in close fellowship with Jesus. He said that He was doing nothing that He had not seen His Father doing. His example of prayerfully seeking God's will and not His own is the key for us to a deeper understanding of recognizing the voice of God when we do get impressions and insights as to what He wants us to do. Jesus said that the wind blows where it pleases and we do not understand where it comes from or where it is going, but we can see the effect it has on the things around us. So it is with things of the Spirit. As we develop our spiritual sense, we will understand what the Lord is trying to accomplish thru us. We must, however, decide if we want to take that step and trust God that He will speak to us. You are correct in pointing our the distinction of the moral implications of the Bible as being controlling. Your example of the JW murderer, however, is just an example of someone who was presumptuously wrong in what he thought God was requiring him to do. I would surmise that this individual was not very well versed in the Golden Rule. There will always be a threat from zealotry, but the actions of a zealot should not discourage us from seeking what God has for us because of what the zealot testified that God had told him to do. We will know the tree by the fruit that it produces. The good and the evil will grow together until Jesus appears. This means to me that we have to be as competent at doing good as the evil are at doing bad. The good news is that we have a more powerful Helper for doing good than they have for doing evil. The problem, however, is that Christians have been told that we do not have access to God's arsenal. All that we have is the Bible. God doesn't talk to us apart from the Word. I used to believe that argument, but now I know better. It follows, therefore, that we should be willing to listen closely to Him and to use any weapon in His arsenal that He bestows upon us to accomplish His goals. Our daily fellowship with Jesus and our willingness to be led by Him as His disciples emcompasses more than Bible study and a witness base exclusively on what the Bible says. It is also being like Phillip and doing as the Holy Spirit directs us. We all need to expand our thinking and not rely on our own understanding as to how our heavenly Father works His wonders. | ||
| Lydell |
It all comes down to a matter of moving beyond giving intellectual ascent to the idea of the historical reality of what Christ has done in providing for our salvation. Living a spirit filled life moves into the realm of daily experiencing intimate communion with Christ. That moves beyond the truth of the words in the book to realtionship with the author of the book. If we place our focus constantly on the thought of "BUT I might get it wrong, there's a danger of following the wrong impression" then we will never experience confidence that the God who is willing to speak directly to His children also speaks to ME intimately. If welive in the area of the fear of following the wrong impression then we are placing our faith in ourselves and our ability to hear, rather than placing our faith on Him and his ability to speak and relate to us as individuals. | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Lydell, David, Annette.... I've been thinking hard about what you have been saying. And I do see the points you have been making. They seem to be convencing for the most part. And it's obvious each of you has done studying and thinking before posting. Also the fact that you seem to be in substantial agreement is important to me. So.... I'm asking for some time to do some thinking about this. Is your thinking a part of the "charismatic movement"? Because of my stick-close-to-scripture orientation, I'm not fully comfortable with the kind of spur-of-the-moment "impressions" you seem to be talking about. When I get impressions they almost always come in dreams, and I have plenty of time to write down the dream, think about it, compare it to Scripture, especially the sayings of Jesus, before taking action. Do you have any advice from your experiences to give me in my quest for the seemingly less-structured, more freewheeling personal doctrine of the Holy Spirit in the day-to-day life of the Christian? Thanks for hearing me, Jude | ||
| Annette |
Jude: As to whether I am part of charismatic movement, no. But then I have learned in my years out of the SDA church to avoid labels, because one never knows what another person means by it, as we all can attest. I am just trying to understand how people are able to know that it is the Holy Spirit that nudges them to call someone at just the right time or as in David's example to pull to the edge of the road. These I would call the gray area for me, anyway. When thoughts are in direct opposition to Scripture, that is black and white and clearly not God's voice, but the enemy's. So your point regarding the importance of knowing and sticking to Scripture is certainly a vital part of this. Just trying to run the race with endurance as you are. YIC, Annette | ||
| Colleentinker |
Alenette--I'm teaching at a nondenominational Christian school. They have students from about 75 different churches including SDA and Catholic as well as many evangelical and other Protestant religions. They teach Bible (salvation, Bible reading, understanding God's love and will for humanity) but they do not teach doctrines. Yes, I'm sure the Christian background of most students affects their responses. And yes, I really believe that God changed my student's responses. Her quiet, cooperative spirit in class the next day was the work of the Holy Spirit. I know that the girl in question has her own spiritual struggles, and her problem with cooperation is part of her struggle. But she also knows, at some level, that God is sovereign and loves her. I'm sure that understanding made her more receptive to the Holy Spirit's intervention. She was absolutely out-of-control, and it was a problem that had been intensifying. She was absolutely unresponsive to direction, and on Friday she was completely changed. Again, I don't think the problem is necessarily over for good. But I KNOW that it was God who caused the change. Nothing else could explain it. I believe that God impresses each of us in different ways. We are all "wired" differently, and God knows what he has to do in order to make himself heard. Jude sometimes has insight from dreams; David and Annette have sometimes heard God. I've often known or understood things right at the moment I've needed to know them, and sometimes those insights have been things I'd never thought of before. Sometimes those ideas just flow out of my mouth as I'm talking, and I'll realize that I've just learned something as I hear myself say it. Sometimes I've had sudden thoughts, clear and fully formed, right when I'd been struggling with a doubt or fear or with a Bible passage. I know those are the Holy Spirit. I do believe that God will impress anyone who trusts him if they're in a position of needing insight or understanding. The mechanics of those impressions may vary from person to person. But I believe that we can learn to know his "voice". If we love him, if we're commited to truth, God can speak to us. I know that people can be deceived; in fact, I often pray that God will protect me from deception. I read in the old book "Like a Mighty Wind" by Mel Tari this idea: the Holy Spirit's promptings give us peace and resolution. Satan's cause us to feel "pushed" or incongruous. That's not to say that we necessarily want to do what the Holy Spirit reveals, but it is to say that we will have peace, even if we're convicted of something we've been trying to avoid. | ||
| Lydell |
Good points Colleen. It does seem that very often when it is the Holy Spirit speaking that the ideas come suddenly leaping into your mind. For example: David and I are on the prayer team at our church. In praying over a lady one day I didn't have a clue what to pray for her or say to her. She had only said that she just "needs prayer about everything!" Suddenly a thought came to mind and I asked her if she had been hurt by someone recently. That was it, for she suddenly burst into tears and was able to tell us about that and then we could address that issue more directly. It could have been any of a number of things that was the key to her "everything". And maybe up to that point she herself wasn't even aware of what that key was. We didn't have a clue what it would be, but the Holy Spirit did. So, I think very often, tho not always, this sudden thought is a good indicator that it is the Holy Spirit speaking. I'm also finding that it is true that when it is the Spirit of God there is a peace or a certainty. Even if, as you said, it is not something that you want to do, there is just more of a certainty that this thing is so. And that if it is satan who is speaking then you feel a churning or condemnation instead. Annette, aren't we thankful for the times when the issue is black and white because we have the scriptures to look at and get the direct answer? Whew! I think for these other times it is really a matter of learning by experience. You have to step out in faith and follow the promptings to start recognizing the voice of God. Otherwise I don't think we will ever learn to separate our own inclinations from His leading. Would a friend continue speaking to you if you never responded to what they said? And I believe it is important that when we have those experiences when we DO hear from Him correctly that we immediately acknowledge the fact to Him by thanking Him. The one leading guideline perhaps would be "if I say this thing to this person or do this thing will I be lifting them up by encouraging them to look to the Lord or condemning them with a feeling of hopelessness?" We know from being in prayer with people (and we are just learning here!) that there are times the Lord will give you a strong impression about someone, and it is not something that you are supposed to speak to them, but rather something for you to be aware of in praying for them. I had that one happen yesterday. Have had a strong suspicion that a casual visitor at our church is involved in a certain sinful lifestyle. The impression suddenly became strong while verbally praying for her to be able to grasp the reality of God's love for her just as she is right now, which was her expressed area of need. Perhaps that was the Lord stepping in to prompt me to add just a sentence of "and thank you that you never intend to leave us the way you find us, but through your power will make us into the person you see us being." My suspicion or impression of her lifestyle may be totally off base and I'd been asking the Lord to help me set that aside so that I could hear from him. To answer your question about church, Jude. We are a part of a Vineyard church (this is a worldwide association of churches, different from a denomination because of the individual freedom it affords the different congregations while still providing accountability). We are not strictly speaking a charismatic group. But we do try to learn from the things that the charismatic groups have come to find is true, such as this subject of God still actively speaking in the lives of his individual children. I guess the big difference between us and the charismatics is that we take seriously the caution that things should be done in order and with accountability. For instance, we don't believe that people can be "self- annointed, self-appointed" prophets who can just walk off the street and into our service and start speaking. We would feel that if they are truly sent from God, the Spirit present in us will testify to the fact that they are genuinely from Him, and the person will be willing to submit to the pastor before he speaks to others. When we feel we have a word of knowledge to present to someone, we try to be careful to word it something along the lines of "I believe the Lord wants me to tell you..." and we give them the encouragement to then take it to the Lord for confirmation. Glad to hear that you are open. I know it is hard to set aside what you have been taught about the Lord only speaking today through the scriptures. I'd heard it from the time I was a very small child. But you know, at the same time I can remember reading all these books about missionaries and being impressed by the stories they had to tell of the Lord suddenly giving them impressions to warn them of danger or guide them in their ministry. Somehow it had just never clicked until fairly recently that if he was speaking to THEM that way then it was very likely that He was willing to speak to ME that way. Certainly I need His help and direction on a daily basis as much as any missionary! And as I thought back, I had to admit that I could think of numerous times through the years when it could only have been God that was speaking. That got me to thinking about, as you pointed out how these were mostly very unusual times of need. But as I thought on it more I had to admit that for the Christian ALL of our lives, every moment is supposed to be relying on Him and not on ourselves. It would have to be so or otherwise we could declare with pride, "wasn't I clever when I did that." It has been a fascinating learning experience, leaving us in awe many times when the Lord uses us to touch someone. We know we were clueless in the situation! As I've said before it just makes me stand back in openmouthed astonishment wondering what else He would be willing to do through me that I have been unaware of. | ||
| Darrell |
I would not say I have ever heard the voice of God speaking directly to me, but I can relate to what Colleen said about the Holy Spirit bringing peace about a decision in the direction He is leading. One example that comes to mind is the choice to work for my present employer a year and a half ago. I was considering two offers, and I clearly felt peace with accepting the one and not the other. Since then, the company I work for has been named one of the 10 fastest growing companies in the city where it is located, and ironically the manager who tried to hire me at the other company is today starting to work on a project here as an independant contractor after leaving the other company. I cannot prove that this was not just my own inclination, but I do beleive God was leading me. |
