| Author | Message | ||
| Lori |
I have pondered these questions over and over..... Are most Adventist saved? Are the Adventist that I love, my friends and family, are they saved? According to scripture, the only requirement for salvation is belief in Jesus Christ, that he died for you to save you from all sin. (Adventist do believe in Jesus Christ) Is it not being saved to add the Sabbath and these other different theologies? Or is that part of just not allowing the Holy Spirit to work in your spiritual life? Or is it just affecting their rewards in heaven? Do Adventist who hear the truth and then reject it.....are they also rejecting salvation? Is rejecting the simplicity of salvation an act of nullifying it? Does the boastfulness of 'we have more truth, we are the only Sabbath keepers' nullify the grace of God? I know my family believe in the diety of Christ and in his substitutionary death on the cross, but they also believe that the Sabbath is and will be the determining factor of who is sealed and who is not. What does 'faith in the Sabbath' along side faith in Jesus do to ones salvation? What have you found that God says about that? | ||
| Colleentinker |
Lori, I've wrestled with this question. I believe that God knows the integrity of our hearts. I believe that many Adventists have truly accepted Jesus even if they don't fully understand what He did. I know that I accepted Him as an Adventist, and it was a genuine acceptance. I realize now that I didn't really comprehend who He was or what He didóat least, not at a spiritual level. I had a head understanding of the right words, but my heart did not grasp the full reality. I believe that when a person desires truth and is committed to integrity, God honors those commitments and gently leads him or her into more and more truth. As Dale Ratzlaff said, there are two kinds of Adventists: the uninformed and the deceived. God is in the business of informing the uninformed. If we desire truth, He helps us find it. I don't really know how God judges those who cling to their deception even when truth is placed before them. Only God knows what damage has been done to their hearts and psyches in the past, and only God knows what holds them in deception. I do believe there are many who know Adventism is wrong but choose to defend it for the sake of convenience, status, and financial security. I suspect those motives don't translate into integrity, although I can't judge them before Christ does! But othersóI often wonder. I also know that God doesn't give up on people. He will continue to bring people to decision points. In short, I believe that many of our Adventist friends and family are saved. Others, as in any community, probably are not. I'm having to learn to put my loved ones into His hands and trust Him to continue to draw them toward truth. God does honor an honest heart. He does give all who truly believe Him the gift of the Holy Spirit, and that Spirit within them will guide them, teach them, and change them. | ||
| Lynn W |
Lori, I won't even try to answer that because I'm still wrestling with the same question myself. But I've often wondered, if people insist on earning their own salvation, or in any way contributing to their own salvation, it seems to me they are not dependent on Christ - they become their own "saviors." To the extent that they must contribute to their own salvation, to that extent, they are declaring Christ's works inadequate. | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Full on! Colleen and Lynn. -Jude | ||
| Susan |
Colleen and Lynn, I love your comments on this topic! I'm re-visiting this discussion to get some feedback on an issue that hit me today. I'll try to explain my thoughts as clearly as possible, please bear with me! We've discussed many times how belief in Christ is dependent on salvation. I know there are diffences of opinion on, how much one needs to understand about who Christ is, to truly be saved. But, if we believe that one needs to fully accept the resurrection of Christ (which I asume we all do) as part of salvation, then what part does Christ's soul play? Here are a few questions to ponder; did Christ have a soul, what happened to it when he died, what happened to it when he was resurrected, do we need to understand all of these aspects to say we fully accept and believe the resurrection? My big question is, if one believes in the soul-sleep doctrine can they be saved? If Christ's human form had a soul and we must accept His atonement and His resurrection, don't we have to accept the part His soul played? If we have the promise of being "raised up" (either as a dead believer or one that is alive at the second coming) one day as Christ was, then isn't it important to also understand what happens to our souls? I know there are numerous bible verses to support the fact that, believer's souls immediately go to be with the Lord upon dying. I would just love to hear some of your thoughts on whether or not belief in this doctrine, (being with the Lord upon dying) is critical to our understanding and acceptance of the resurrection, and how does that effect our salvation? I apologize if it's hard to understand what I'm getting at. Sorry for so many questions. I have some of my own opionions but would love to hear from all of you! In Christ Alone, Susan | ||
| Lynn W |
Susan, I trust you meant to say, "salvation is dependent on belief in Christ." I don't think it's so much a matter of fully understanding as it is trusting. To reiterate what I said above, "To the extent that (we) must contribute to (our) own salvation, to that extent, (we) are declaring Christ's works inadequate." I don't think confusion on the state of the dead has anything to do with salvation. So if you believe the dead are asleep & I believe they are with Christ, I don't see how that can affect salvation. This is not about robbing Christ of His atoning work. The important things are, He died on the Cross for the redemption of sins, and we are saved entirely by His works imputed to us by His grace, and not by any works of ours. | ||
| Colleentinker |
I tend to agree with Lynn. I think people can be saved whether or not they believe they're asleep or with Christ when they're dead. On the other hand, I've been thinking some of the same thoughts you have, Susan. I tend to think that when we truly accept the gift of salvation in Christ, he leads us to a more nearly correct understanding of the state of our souls over time. Since I've come to see salvation as being spiritually resurrected (since we are born with dead souls, compliments of Adam and Eve) it makes even more sense to me that our souls are with him when we die. When we are born again, our resurrected souls are united with him; we are one with him, and the Holy Spirit is one with us. This miracle is not reversible just because we die. Paul said that nothing, including life or death, can separate us from Christ's love. If our souls slept, we can argue that God's love still watches over them, but that's still separation. Love is relational; it loves a lover. Our souls remain connected to his love. And Jesus said that God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; he's not the God of the dead, but of the living! All who accept Jesus by faith are among the living, even though they die. Jesus also said that those who accept him have passed from death to life. These have to be more than metaphors. Our souls have received eternal life. Of course our bodies wait to be resurrected and changed, but our souls are with him. If they're with him in eternal life NOW, they stay with him in eternal life after we die. Yes, I do think we can be saved believing in soul sleep. In fact, I was. But God in his graciousness has continued to help me learn. Understanding more and more about him just makes my love and astonishment increasingly greater. I believe God is faithful to keep teaching us. And he teaches all of us differently and in different sequences. In some ways, we all retain differing understandings of certain doctrines. Our common bond, though, is salvation by grace through faith alone. This walk with Christ is sometimes exciting, sometimes surprising, and always new. | ||
| Lynn W |
Colleen, I love the way you put it in the proper order: "I tend to think that when we truly accept the gift of salvation in Christ, (THEN) he leads us to a more nearly correct understanding of the state of our souls over time." As long as SDA keep working so hard to put the cart (total, absolute, complete knowledge of everything) before the horse (trust in Jesus Christ as our redemer), they'll never get anywhere. SDA have so tightly linked salvation to correct SDA understanding, that they have to be rebaptized every few years whenever they learn something new. | ||
| Susan |
Lynn, I agree with you 100%! Your last sentence says it all. I knew there would be confusion with this. My writing isn't as good as the rest of you. Belief in the resurrection does not save. But to believe in Jesus as THE Christ is to also embrace the resurrection, as well as His divine nature, manhood, and His all sufficient atonement (etc.). I guess what I'm trying to get at goes back to what you believe about Jesus. Are you saved for believing in Him, but not accepting He was God incarnate? What if you just think He was a good teacher? What if you think He wasn't bodily resurrected? Doesn't believing in Jesus for salvation also involve comprehending (at least on an elementary level) all that Jesus was/is (God incarnate, scapegoat for our sins, risen Lord, Lamb without blemish etc.)? So I guess I'm focusing on the resurrection part of the belief in Jesus. If it's necessary to believe that He was fully God as part of salvation, than don't we need to understand the resurrection? I know that wisdom and understanding increase with spiritually maturity. Baby believers who are trusting in the saving grace of Christ are certainly saved. But with bible study we can grow in our walk. I guess I'm just curious how SDA's and others that study their bible, could conclude that soul sleep is a biblical doctrine. Doesn't this belief change who Jesus was and what He did with regard to the resurrection? I agree with you so much that the finished work of Jesus on the cross was sufficient. I just heard a lecture today that addressed this topic and it got me thinking. The speaker stressed the need to really accept in our hearts what the resurrection meant. I'm so sorry for not being clear. Perhaps this was not a good topic. I just respect all of you and value your opinions. Thanks for putting up with my scattered thoughts! | ||
| Colleentinker |
Susan, "scattered" is the last word I'd use to describe you! You are clear, and I learn from you! And I agree with you: I do believe that if we believe in soul sleep, our understanding of Jesus and what he did is still fuzzy. As always, thanks for your ideas and insights! | ||
| Susan |
Thanks for your wonderful input Colleen and Lynn! Sorry Colleen, I didn't read your post prior to my last posting. Sometimes I start writing and it takes me forever to get it posted (preschooler interuptions are driving me crazy!!!), then there are more posts to respond to. Like Lynn, I appreciate your point about God leading our understanding. That topic alone makes for a great discussion. Since becoming a Christian, I love to look up all the bible promises regarding my soul's eternal home. In fact, these verses are heavily highlighted so I can refer to them quickly. Anyway, thanks again for your responses. | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
I don't personally believe I have to UNDERSTAND the resurrection in order to benefit from it, that is, to be saved and thus to live the remainder of my life on earth in the kingdom of heaven, which, by the way, is utterly indistiguishable scripturally from the ecclesia or church or body of Christ or sheep in the sheepfold or the branches of the grapevine or any of a large number of other biblical metaphors pointing us beyond the words themselves to the spiritual reality, which is Christ. But I do believe I have to TRUST the resurrection. There are many things in scripture that we just don't understand and indeed cannot understand. Not fully, not clearly, and certainly not scientifically. Here are just a few: 1. How can Jesus be both 100% God and 100% human at the same time? Can you explain that to the satisfaction of a panel of scientists or philosophers? 2. How can you have three persons in the trinity? Or, conversely, how can you split the one God up into three distinct persons? Can you explain this scientifically? Do you remember from singing Handel's "Messiah" that the Christ child, ONLY ONE PERSON of the godhead/trinity, is nevertheless called ALL THREE persons of the godhead/trinity plus the name of the ONE GOD? Think back: "And his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor [God the Holy Spirit], the Mighty God ["Hear O Israel, the Lord your God is one"], the Everlasting Father [God the Father], the Prince of Peace [God the Son]." This is no fluke, no slip of Isaiah's pen. This is the real thing, the genuine article, a true paradox of faith. For, "in him dwelt all the fullness of the godhead bodily." 3. What good does it do for the remains of my body to be collected and resurrected -- if I have been, say, cremated and the ashes scattered over the Pacific Ocean -- at the Second Coming if when I die I am immediately "present" with God? Or how about a scientific proof of this? Our scientific, Western minds have trouble with these kinds of things. But the great Christian mystics -- such as St. John of the Cross, Meister Eckhart and St. Francis of Assisi, to name only a very few -- were never particularly bothered by these paradoxes. And these were people who spent their lives, hours a day, studying and meditating on them! Also, if the the paradoxes of belief are so important to understand on the basis of scientific investigation -- as opposed to believing, trusting and acting on faith -- then why didn't the Bible writers explain them scientifically? And even if they did, wouldn't our faith be forced or coerced by indisputable evidence? And if that were the case, then where would be the room for faith? Would faith not be obviated and thereby destroyed? I personally believe that my (1) experience of meeting Jesus Christ through the direct encounter with the Holy Spirit comes first. (2) Faith in that mysterious encounter comes next. (3) Acting on that faith -- i.e., good works or obedience to Christ's commandments, such as loving one's enemies -- comes third. And (4) reason comes last, but even then, never fully or even very clearly. For "we see through a glass darkly" or "a mirror dimly" until we see our Savior face to face. And so remains only faith, hope, and love, these three. And the greatest of these three is love. Jude | ||
| Lynn W |
And in the new world - THEN comes understanding. "Are you saved for believing in Him, but not accepting He was God incarnate?" Susan I think we have to know WHO the savior is. I think it's important to believe He is God incarnate. That's not necessarily the same as understanding HOW He is God incarnate. That's a mystery I take on faith. "What if you just think He was a good teacher?" If He was anything other than God incarnate, then we do not have faith in THE Savior, we just have faith in a guy who's name happens to be Jesus. (a friend once told me every 5th person in Mexico is named Jesus). "What if you think He wasn't bodily resurrected?" If He wasn't, then He is not victor over death, then we have a "what's-the-point?" savior. "Doesn't believing in Jesus for salvation also involve comprehending (at least on an elementary level) all that Jesus was/is (God incarnate, scapegoat for our sins, risen Lord, Lamb without blemish etc.)?" When I first recieved Christ as my redemer, I didn't know anything about scapegoats & lambs. I only knew He died for my sins & rose again. I believe I was saved by His grace through faith. When I learned these other things, I accepted them as applying to Christ. To do otherwise, is to reject Him and what He has done. Would I lose my salvation? That's another subject. Would I grieve Him? Definitely. If you knock yourself out taking care of your kids & providing for them, would you like to overhear them telling a friend that it was some estranged relative who has provided everything for them? Imagine how grieved Christ must be when SDAs give credit to Satan for bearing their sins. I could cry just thinking about it. | ||
| Colleentinker |
Judeóthank you for pointing out paradox. I love what M. Scott Peck says: truth is always a paradox. To teach half of a paradox as truth is to teach heresy. We cannot explain all truth. We have faith in truth. Truth sets us free. Truth embraces and disciplines us. Truth makes us see. Praise God! |
