| Author | Message | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
DEAR ADVENTIST FRIEND Why do you think Christians of other denominations arenít ready for Jesus to come? You really do think that, you know. You do, at least, if youíre an Adventist who truly believes in your own churchís message. You know what your churchís basic evangelistic message is. Itís, JESUS IS COMING! GET READY! Isnít it? Now why would you tell someone, ìGet ready!î if you knew that person was already ready? You wouldnít ñ not unless you believed that person WASNíT ready, would you? So am I not right? By giving assent to your churchís most basic doctrines, youíre actually supporting the evangelizing of Methodists, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Baptists and all the rest. And all on the ground that you believe they are not ready! Now if Iím not right about that, my Adventist friend, then why not post a reply right here and now and tell me why and where Iím wrong. Or, if you agree, then you can also post. Fair enough? How about it? In Christ alone, Jude | ||
| Steve |
Jude, I agree, so I must post with that part of my story. I was a Christian, saved by Jesus Christ, through the ministry of Young Life, a high-school non-denominational Christian ministry. Shortly thereafter I was baptized in a Baptist church. In the first month of accepting Jesus, no less than 5 groups came to me and told me that my faith was not correct (or only partially correct). That's funny now, because I hardly knew what I believed. A knock at the door. "Good afternoon. We're elders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day saints, and we'd like to talk to you about the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ." I replied, "Praise the Lord, come on in." After one hour I was amazed that God had left the earth for 1800 years without His gospel being preached. (They almost "got" me after months of study.) I was told that my faith was wrong. Within a week of that, another knock at the door. "Good afternoon, we're Jehovah's Christian Witnesses, and we'd like to tell you about God's Theocratic Kingdom." After one hour, I was surprised that I was never taught that Jesus had come back invisibly in 1914 and was leading His people from His headquarters in Brooklyn, New York. I was told my faith was wrong. In the same month, I was approached by a person where I worked. He was with The Way, of Victor Paul Weirwille. He said, "Steve, you say that you believe in a Trinity. But if you'll look in the Bible, you'll find that the word 'Trinity' never occurs." I searched, and lo and behold, he was right. I read Weirwille's book, Jesus Christ is Not God. It twisted my mind into a pretzel. He told me my faith was wrong. I was approached by someone visiting my workplace who said, "Do you want to bring the world to Jesus Christ and set the world free?" "Absolutely," I replied. After just a few minutes I was shocked to see that this young woman was so bitter about the Satanic Government, the Satanic Churches, and all the Satanic Systems that have been set up in this world. I was given some "Mo Letters" which I read. I got more literature from Moses David [AKA David Brandt Berg]. I read Mo Letters that had pictures of nude women and told about how flirty fishing [hooking for Jesus] was an appropriate practice for Christians. I was told that my faith was wrong and the churches are part of the Satanic system. I was in a parking lot, going to my car at a crowded mall when a young man "popped out of nowhere" and scared the living daylights out of me. He asked me if I believe in Jesus. I said, "Yes, I do." He whipped out a beautiful, color illustrated copy of the Bhagavad Gita, with commentary by Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, the founder of the Hare Krishnas. He said he also believed in Jesus, and just as the Christian God has three persons, so the true God, has more than three. I was told not to limit my understanding of God to what mere mortals could understand. He told me my faith, although good, was still not true to God. My faith was wrong. I read the Bhagavad Gita, and other literature from the Hare Krishnas. I was amazed that maybe this Christian God I had been introduced to was a limited being, and maybe what I was being taught about God was telling more of the story. These 5 groups approached me WITHIN MY FIRST MONTH of being a Christian. I had NEVER heard of them before, with one exception. I had heard the word "Mormon" when my parents were inviting someone over who didn't drink coffee or alcohol. I remember they used the word "Mormon" to describe him. That was 1975. I learned a whole lot about how Satan really works. During those first few years, it became clear to me that once you come to Jesus Christ, WITH NO STRINGS ATTACHED, Satan wants to start attaching strings. I had heard somewhere that Seventh-day Adventists were Christians, so I never bothered to really check things out. But I was amazed that once I met with them, I was told that my faith was not correct. But what they had to say, seemed to be based more on the Bible than anything I had heard before. A Revelation Seminar in 1985 persuaded me. At that time, I was not aware of any books that dealt with SDA theology and showed it for what it really is. The Seventh-day Adventists evangelized me, a Christian. For some reason they felt that my faith needed to be "corrected", or brought further into the "light". Yes, the SDA church evangelizes Christians. We do not practice "equity" on the mission field. What does "equity on the mission field" mean? When the Presbyterians, Baptists, Lutherans, etc. are working in a certain place, they will divide up the territory and then to into their designated area with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The SDA church will not do that. If there are Baptists there, the SDA church will go in. If there are Presbyterians there, the SDA church will go in. If there are Methodists there, the SDA church will go in. The SDA church does not have the same gospel as the other Protestant churches. If it did, it would practice equity on the mission field. The same is true in the United States. Christians are asked to come and be led into Present Truth, just as I was. And instead of applying the same criteria I had with all those other groups that had told me my faith was wrong, I accepted the SDA gospel. 15 years later, I realize I made a mistake. Where it was no problem to go from Baptist, to Presbyterian, to Pentecostal, etc., I have found that now that I want to go to a different "denomination" I am being perceived as a heretic. So I guess I'm heretical. But I must admit, I desperately want to go back to that simple, childlike faith I had when I first became a Christian, with no strings attached. Because I've realized that that was the Pure, Unadulterated Gospel that I was initially taught. Remember, our enemy, "stalks about as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour." Let's not be devoured by human institutions that claim that they have the deepest truth about God. With childlike faith, Steve | ||
| Colleentinker |
Steve, Great post! Remember what Jesus said to countless people when he healed themóincluding the woman who had been bleeding for twelve yearsó"Your faith has made you whole"? Salvation is truly by grace alone through faith alone! Anything added is another gospel. Praising God for grace and freedom, Colleen | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
I add my amens to Colleen's. Praising God for your compelling witness, Steve, | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Steve, You really got hammered. Amazing you are alive to tell that story. Unfortunately, The Way, of Victor Paul Weirwille, brought home a sad memory of a friend that is now, in part, dead (literally) from that awful heretical theology! Keep the stories and smiley faces coming :-) Maryann | ||
| Ernie |
Steve: What a wonderful post! However, it made sad. I was one of those who believe that others Christians needed a new kind of Gospel, and did the utmost to win other Christians to the Adventist message as a pastor. Now, after discovering the real Gospel I just work hard to preach that Gospel to any person in need of the saving grace of Jesus Christ. Steve, the truth is in the Bible. The simple faith you are longing for is found in a personal relationship with Christ, free from any denominationalism. Praise God for this website! God will show you many new things through people like Colleen, Jude, Bruce H, etc. Keep in touch with us, and by God's grace you will receive blessings form the real Truth. In Christ, Ernie | ||
| Steve |
Thank you, Ernie. Yes, I already have been blessed by those you mention, and others. I also continually praise God for this website. It is a place where I can vent freely, and know that others will listen, empathize, and provide sound support. I have been trying to go by the Bible alone. Of course, I don't discount what I find in other places, but now I am more aware of when there is Biblical support for it and where the Bible is silent, or opposes what I find. Please don't feel guilty for having led others into "denominationalism." Although a layman, I gave Revelation/Danial seminars and led others into what I thought was further truth. I wish that I could take back what I said over those years, but have learned that these others are as responsible as I in not really checking things out completely. Occasionally, I have an urge to contact a certain couple and tell them, "Beware! Get out while you're still thinking for yourselves!" I may contact them when I get my "land-legs" back, but must be comforted by the thought that I had always tried to project Christ's love above all things. I just hope and pray that I haven't led too many people into error. I hope that, in the midst of all the beasts, trumpets, horns, and statues, that I provided them with a "firm foundation" (oooh, I have trouble with certain phrases now!) in Jesus Christ. God bless you, Ernie, Steve | ||
| Question |
Cults tend to sow in places where others planted something. Adventism fits this profile. They will walk past a lost man to lure people from another church. | ||
| Steve |
Hi Question, How true. It often seems that they're more interested in converting those already converted, than, as you say, going to the lost. That's why the title to this thread is so enlightening. If we SDAs would only take the gospel to the lost, instead of "further light" to those already saved. It's sad, but true. SDAs won't even split up the mission field with other Christian churches. It insists on going in even where others are already evangelizing. When I learned that, it made me realize that we have "a different gospel" (II Corinthians 11:4) from Evangelical Christians. Praise God for His only Gospel in Jesus Christ our Lord. Steve | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Reply: Agreed. Sometimes I think at least a little of what we do here at FAF comes under the category of "deprogramming." And other times I think, really, nobody else can do that except formers. And not just any formers, either. For, as Richard Tinker has pointed out, only 2% of formers demonstrate a love for God by joining a grace-based church or otherwise living grace-based lives, the so-called "generic Christians," of which I am one. The other 98% just "go out," perhaps proving that they didn't have "it" when they were "in" Adventism anyway. I don't know. It gets too speculative. Harder numbers are needed. At any rate, there aren't many of us. And there are even fewer who take the stance that we need to evangelize Adventists. It's not enough just to "deprogram." For that's essentially a negative operation. If you're not giving them Christ without the law, without EGW, without the Sabbath-test, then in my opinion at least you're wasting your time. Peace, Jude | ||
| bethany |
I'm a former Adventist who relishes in God's Grace and enjoys talking about it! Praise God that other's are out there, doing the same. I was one of the "first" among my friends and family to leave Adventism, and I was so thrilled with my discoveries in the Bible I made it a point to tell my Adventist friends. Now, some of those friends have discovered Grace as well, along with my husband and children. My Adventist friends still try to lead me back to Jesus, but the path they offer is clouded with shame, fear, and oh so many strings! praise God for His Grace through the faith of Jesus Christ! | ||
| Question |
Bless you and your family. | ||
| sherry |
I'm in a tight spot myself, having recently left the church. Well I left in spirit 5 years ago, went to a charasmatic churches, had what I thought was a new birth experience, was confused by the "move of the Spirit" - whether true or false, felt led back to the church to bring my new love for Jesus back, ended up dying again and being under bondage of condemnation, and now I've split ties permanently. Everyone expects that I'll come back some time. And the hardest thing is I have an Adventist husband and two little children, and trying to know what to do and how to balance this as not to just tear up my children's foundation and respect my husband's desires to remain. I want to attend a church as a family. And finding some middle ground has been tough. He wants me to come to church with him still, and I told him that I just cannot. I did agree to once a month if he would attend with me once a month. And the kids (1 1/2 and 3 1/2)love their Sabbath school, and I don't want to tear them from that or from being with their daddy at church. My husband has been willing to go to another church with me on Wednesday nights. It just wrenches my stomach to be in this spot. I never thought I'd be in this spot. I never thought I would be led to leave the SDA church...I was always so thankful I married a man with the same beliefs and now I'm finding myself leaving, and sometimes I wonder, "is it worth it?" I know it must be or God would not give me such peace despite the pain. If anyone has had this split between husband and wife, any sharing would be helpful. Thanks. | ||
| Lydell |
Hi Sherry, glad you found your way here. Any chance you hubby would be up for a real Bible study with you? Your kids are young and it would be a perfect time for the two of you to get with God and find out what He is telling the two of you personally that the scriptures say. Maybe you could start with fairly safe ground like baptism and work your way up to the issues you think he would balk at a bit more. If you could get him to do it together a couple it would be an opportunity for you to lay "those other" scriptures out for him on topics. You know, the ones the SDA's have never read. If he won't get into Bible study with you, then how about taking scriptures to him as you find them and get him to read the context and give you his take on what they are saying. You might start with some of those I have already sent you. | ||
| bethany |
Hi Sherry, it does sound like you are in a tight spot. I think I know the feeling! Hang in there, and remember, it is not your job to convict your husband, friends, and family of the truth, the Holy Spirit is there to do that. Your job is to remain faithful to what you know is the truth, and God will see to it that you are an example to others. When you wonder if it's really worth it, try leaning on the Faith of Jesus Christ to see you and believe that ALL trials are worth the priceless gem of freedom in truth. God bless you with His never-ending love and Grace. | ||
| ApostleDave |
The message to "Be Ready!" is a message to all people, including those in the SDA church. Scripture teaches that the Lord will come as "a thief in the night." When are any of us prepared for a their in the night? When we fortify our home with the precautionary measures: locking our doors and windows, turning on a light, arming the alarm system. A thief can victimize anyone at any time but a person who is ready for them by doing these things will be secure. It's the same with the message to "Be ready!" for Christ's soon return. If we don't take the steps to prepare for the Lamb's soon return we will be too late to prepare for a life of immortality with the King. Like the parable of the 10 virgins, the 5 without oil failed to meet the Bridegroom because of their foolishness. The 5 with oil made it to the feast because of their preparedness. So we need to "Be Ready" as well. It is a message that is to the world (including Adventists) for the Bridegroom is coming soon!!!!!!! In His service by His grace, ApostleDave | ||
| George |
Dave, As far as I can see all we have to do to get ready is to believe that Christ died for us. There is no need to fear that we will not be ready or that there is so much to do that we will never be able to get ready. It only takes amoment to believe. What could be easyer? George | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
"Be Ready!" is a command not found in the Bible. Furthermore, it is an unscriptural concept. The message of the parable of the Ten Virgins is not, "Be Ready!" It is, "Watch!" And the difference is all the difference of salvation. All ten virgins were ready, for at the story's outset all ten had the oil of the Holy Spirit their lamps. That's the parable's definition of being ready. So readiness is not the issue. Watching is the issue. Five of them didn't "watch" the level of oil in the reservoirs of their lamps. Meaning, they failed to maintain their relationship with Christ Jesus the bridegroom through the work of the Holy Spirit already in their hearts. Jesus said, "I will never leave you or forsake you." Meaning, the Holy Spirit will never leave you or forsake you. Meaning, in turn, that it is the believer's responsibility to "watch" for Jesus to come by keeping the Holy Spirit in his/her heart. And in fact, the ONLY way -- if we are to believe the parable -- to "watch" for Jesus is to have a living relationship with the Holy Spirit. "Watching" for Jesus to come is not the same as "getting ready" for him by keeping the Sabbath holy by resting all day, paying tithe, shunning pork and shellfish and dinner wine, accepting the testimonies of Ellen G. White, and scrutinizing your life history for one tiny speck of unforgiven (!) sin, etc. You are ready when you are justified, sanctified, and sinless. And that happy occurrence happens ONLY at the instant you accept his presence in your life by virtue of the Holy Spirit in your heart. The presence of the Holy Spirit is IDENTICAL to the presence of Jesus Christ in your heart. Therefore, the olive oil in the lamp reservoirs of all ten virgins represents the presence of Jesus Christ there every bit as much as the presence of the Holy Spirit there. Therefore at the outset all ten were ready. Later only five were ready because they lost their relationship with Christ. This interpretation of the parable is consistent with that of all other parables of Jesus that deal with the same issue: Example 1. The wheat and the weeds grow together until the harvest. Example 2. The good fish and the bad fish are all caught up in the same net and are only later sorted out for "good" or "bad." Conclusion: It is sheerest legalism to tell people to "Be Ready!" Not only because it is unbiblical and occurs nowhere in Scripture, which, to the contrary, says only, "Watch!" But also because such a false-doctrine message turns people into legalists. Therefore if Seventh-day Adventists want to use the parable of the Ten Virgins in their evangelistic efforts around the world, they should revise their message to accord with Scripture. They should be telling those who do not have oil in their lamps to first get the oil. And they should be telling those who already have oil in their lamps to "Watch!" For "getting yourself ready" for Jesus to come is nothing more nor less than the same old legalism that the entire New Testament denounces in no uncertain terms! Under grace + 0, Jude | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Not only is "Be ready!" or "Get ready!" unknown and alien to Scripture as a command to precede Christ's Second Coming, it is a false command that stands in violation of Scripture and under the curse of God. What curse? Where? Revelation 22:18-21 NIV: "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are desscribed in this book. "He who testifies to these things says, 'Yes, I am coming soon.' "Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. "The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen." Jude | ||
| Colleentinker |
Amen, Jude! | ||
| Bethany |
Jude, thankyou for your clarity. It is my belief that the moment I accepted Jesus Christ as my savior,and the Holy Spirit filled me with his presence, I was saved. Everyday, I am "filled-up" with the Holy Spirit, my refueling for the day, and I am ready! | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
And George, I think your answer was perfect! Thanks for being on the team! Jude | ||
| jtree |
Why Does the SDA Church Evangelize Christians? This is what I think! What would a church be without Christians in it. What would a football team be without football players? What would a car race be without car racers? So they "evangelize" Christians, to bring them in, to make them look evangelical. If it looks like, walks like, talks like, then it must be... | ||
| Q |
Jtree: What is the address of the SDA guestbook/chatroom that you requested help in a week or so ago? I lost the address. Q | ||
| Bruce H |
Bethany ----Jude, thankyou for your clarity. It is my belief that the moment I accepted Jesus Christ as my savior,and the Holy Spirit filled me with his presence, I was saved. Everyday, I am "filled-up" with the Holy Spirit, my refueling for the day, and I am ready!-------- Amen Bethany !!!!! I notice that you said WAS saved, that is right (past tence) Just as the Bible says. So do you remember your born again Birth day? Bruce Heinrich B | ||
| Bethany |
Bruce---boy do I ever remember my born-again birthday! The most powerful and, surprisingly, dramatic day of my life! It comes in two parts, day and night, and it stills gives me goosebumps :) First, I was driving on the highway on my way home. I was alone and very distressed about the way my life was going. I was literally wailing, and most likely driving like a drunk! I believed that everyone I knew was about to leave my life and I would be left totally alone to drown in my own craziness. I had two choices: to try God out for real this time and see if He could actually clean up the mess I was in, OR drive off the road and end it all. Driving off the road felt like an easier choice, but there was that nagging fear that I may not die, just do big time damage and be even worse off. So, right there, in the car, driving way too fast, with tears and snot smeared all over my face, I cryed out to God. I just said "Please do something, please save me, please show me that you care, that you love me, and then give me the courage to face life, Please God, save me!" It was simply, direct, and very ernest. In that instant, everything changed for me. I felt God reached down into my car and wrap around me. I felt incredibly warm, safe, and loved. I had courage to do what I needed to do to get my life together, and I had this unbelievabe desire to know Jesus! Later that night, while sleeping, I had a beautiful dream: I was so small walking through a deep dark forest. I was lost, afraid, and it felt like my life was in danger. Once again, I asked God for help and suddenly I was on the edge of the forrest. I looked up and there were two hugh hands coming down out of the sky towards me. I knew they were God's hands, and I knew He would never leave me again. So, that is my born-again birthday! Thanks for asking! | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Bethany! What a gorgeous story of your personal encounter with the mysterious spiritual reality that is Yahweh! | ||
| jtree |
q. http://www.carm.org Christian apologetics Research Ministry Yes, could use more Doctor's there... How about it Dr. Jude. Dr. Bruce. Dr. Lynn? Anyone else who has lovely feet? Welcome to join! | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Hi Jtree, I registered, but when I accessed the site the e-guard said my password -- the one the site assigned to me -- didn't work. Jude | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Tree, I registered last week too, and had the same problem that Jude had? I have waited a few days and re-tried, same e-guard message? Soooo? Maryann | ||
| jtree |
Did you input your email name? That might help, but it will show up as your user name..don't put your user name in the NAME: BOX......your email name only, the one that the sight sent you, your password...that email address. Try it... :-) come on down...we are having some fun aren't we Dr. Patti | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Jtree, yes I put my email name in the Name Box. I also double-checked my passnumber and found it correct. Still no -- oops, I almost said cigar -- luck. -Jude | ||
| Maryann |
Hey Jude, I just got on. I had to enter my ENTIRE e-mail address. I'm just going to take a peek at the happenings now. Maryann | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Jtree, What an interesting site! You and Patti are doing great. In fact I copied some stuff off it for Mom:-) Keep it up.....Maryann |
