| Author | Message | ||
| Doctortazz |
Hello. I'm a Seventh-day Adventist, who happened to be "surfing" on the Sabbath, when I discovered your site. I read with interest the article by Colleen and Richard Tinker, entitled "Walking in the Light: A Journey Out of Adventism." Please permit me a few comments and questions. Understand, please, that I don't want to be critical, but I am curious. First of all, there is one basic truth that I agree with. If anything, including a church, leads you away from Jesus Christ, then leave that thing, that church, and go to Christ. I am fully confident that Christ is in charge, and He will lead us all if we depend on Him. Many of you, apparently, have left the Adventist Church to protect your faith in Christ, including, of course, the authors of this article. Now that you have established some distance from the Adventist Church, maybe it is time to consider the following questions: 1. Did you leave the Adventist Church because of its doctrines, or did you leave the Church because of a sense of guilt and shame brought by painful childhood memories, past failed relationships, and scary, dysfunctional personal ideas and interpretations? 2. Did you leave the Adventist Church because of its doctrines, or did you leave the Church because of the unchristlike behavior of other human beings who are Seventh-day Adventists? 3. Now that you have separated from "the Church", do you forever want to live life as a "former Adventist"? When will you move on? 4. Do you really believe that the new Christians who are now joining the Adventist church are being deceived by Satan? Do you really believe that earnest Seventh-day Adventist Christians are tools of the devil? 5. Do you believe that someone has to be perfect or infallible to be a prophet? Does everything the prophet has ever said or done have to dead-on accurate or perfect? Be careful how you answer this one. It could affect your faith in the Bible. 6. Do you think all Seventh-day Adventists are in complete and perfect agreement with all doctrinal beliefs and church decisions? Do you think this is a requirement to be an Adventist? 7. Do you believe it is fair to define Seventh-day Adventists solely by lifestyle distinctions and preferences? Do you believe that Adventists are uniformly in agreement on all of these? 8. Do you believe there is anything from your Adventist experience that has helped you in your walk with Christ? I would like to hear your thoughts. Please don't savage me! :-) Signing off, Doctortazz P. S. You might like to visit my daughter's web page at www.angelfire.com/music/Yami. Make sure the "Y" in Yami is capitalized | ||
| Plain Patti |
Hi, Doc! This is Plain Patti, and I will be the first, evidently to take a stab at your questions. You asked: 1. Did you leave the Adventist Church because of its doctrines, or did you leave the Church because of a sense of guilt and shame brought by painful childhood memories, past failed relationships, and scary, dysfunctional personal ideas and interpretations? Good try. The last choice is what a lot of SDAs choose to believe, that we left because we were bitter or hurt, because they cannot understand that we might leave our deep heritage for the sake of the Gospel alone. I had no intention of leaving. I was not rebellious; I LOVED my childhood in the church and church school. When one understands the Gospel of salvation by grace through faith alone, (s)he cannot remain quiet. I wanted to share what I had found, to talk to others about Jesus. I found nothing but hostility toward the Gospel in my church. In our Sabbath School class, one man actually said, "OK, we have talked about Jesus enough. Let's move on to the MEAT of the Gospel." And he then changed the subject to the Sunday law. I left the SDA church because I needed to be nourished with the good news of the grace of God in Jesus Christ, and I could not find it in the SDA church. This was 20 years ago. From what I have seen on various SDA forums, there is still a profound lack of Jesus Christ in SDA theology. 2. Did you leave the Adventist Church because of its doctrines, or did you leave the Church because of the unchristlike behavior of other human beings who are Seventh-day Adventists? Because if its doctrines. They are unsupportable biblically, and they are in conflict with the clear New Testament statements of salvation in Christ alone. 3. Now that you have separated from "the Church", do you forever want to live life as a "former Adventist"? When will you move on? I don't know exactly what you mean. I have moved on. Just because I associate with others of a common background, does not mean I am wallowing in self-pity or seething with revenge. All of my childhood friends were in the church--we were together 6, sometimes 7 days a week. Something else, when one has been so steeped in a religion--from childhood--and leaves it, it is a traumatic experience. One has to deal with feelings of guilt and isolation--only one of my childhood friends who remained SDA will have any contact with me. It is comforting to find others, throughout the world who have come to similar conclusions, independently of each other. I know you probably cannot understand my words. I understand your lack of understanding. I once stood in your shoes and asked the same questions of my siblings that had left the church. One difference--they left because they saw through the hypocrisy; I left because of the Gospel. 4. Do you really believe that the new Christians who are now joining the Adventist church are being deceived by Satan? Do you really believe that earnest Seventh-day Adventist Christians are tools of the devil? Why do you SDAs have to put things in such dramatic terms? Isn't it possible to merely be mistaken, instead of necessarily being a victim of Satan? I have never heard any former SDA accuse any SDA of being led by Satan. Those are your words. 5. Do you believe that someone has to be perfect or infallible to be a prophet? Does everything the prophet has ever said or done have to dead-on accurate or perfect? Be careful how you answer this one. It could affect your faith in the Bible. My faith is in Jesus Christ alone. I do not believe that it is possible for any human to be infallible. As for Ellen, she was more than just inaccurate. She claimed to be "more than just a prophet," and then stole the words and ideas of others and panned them off as divine revelation. I have no more animosity for her than I do for Joseph Smith. He also misled hundreds of thousands of people. 6. Do you think all Seventh-day Adventists are in complete and perfect agreement with all doctrinal beliefs and church decisions? Do you think this is a requirement to be an Adventist? I do not know, and I do not care. We are not saved by church affiliation. Nonetheless, I found SDAs in general, EGW in particular, to be misguided on the doctrine of justification. Therefore the entire system is based upon error. 7. Do you believe it is fair to define Seventh-day Adventists solely by lifestyle distinctions and preferences? Do you believe that Adventists are uniformly in agreement on all of these? (see answer to #6) 8. Do you believe there is anything from your Adventist experience that has helped you in your walk with Christ? The only thing that has made me appreciate the Gospel perhaps more than I would have otherwise is a negative. The years of being beaten over the head with the little red books has made me appreciate: 1. the impossibility of myself to offer a life of perfect obedience to any law, and thus to earn salvation 2. the magnitude of my sin and the grace of God that saves me from my sin 3. what a wonderful thing it is to REST from my works to save myself in Jesus Christ 4. how some people totally fool themselves thinking that they are actually keeping the law of God 5. how lucky I am to have been shown the Gospel to pull me out of the swamps of SDA legalism. There is my honest answers. You probably did not want to hear them, but there they are. Doc: I would like to hear your thoughts. Please don't savage me! :-) Patti: Nothing personal intended, I assure you. :) May we all be led into a deeper appreciation of the grace of God in Christ Jesus, Patti | ||
| Bruce H |
Hello Dr Tazz 1. Did you leave the Adventist Church because of its doctrines, or did you leave the Church because of a sense of guilt and shame brought by painful childhood memories, past failed relationships, and scary, dysfunctional personal ideas and interpretations? I too had great memories of my childhood in the Church, I had a few bad teachers but some real good one's. In fact all 39 years were preaty Good. I am also extremly greatful for my Adventist background, remember it took a real leagalistic Pharisee like Paul to preach true Gospel of GRACE. Now for the reason I left the church. I left it because of a lack of faith within the church, very few Adventist believe that if they died today they would be Saved, By this they show that they do not trust what Jesus has done for them on the cross and they are instead trusting in themselves. I see this as not accepting the Gospel and the free gift from God. I to decided that if I was to be a follower of Jesus Christ I had to make a stand. It has been a very hard one but the Lord has been good to me. 2. Did you leave the Adventist Church because of its doctrines, or did you leave the Church because of the unchristlike behavior of other human beings who are Seventh-day Adventists? The only unchristlike behavior I had from other Adventist was after I left the church. As for the 27 Doctrines of the church, I know have a better teacher then the Chruch. I John 2:27 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. Jesus abides in me and he is my teacher. Bruce H had to leave will finish later. bh | ||
| Bruce H |
Hello again Dr tazz 3. Now that you have separated from "the Church", do you forever want to live life as a "former Adventist"? When will you move on? I have a love for the Adventist People if they could only know what trust in Jesus Christ could do in their lives. I have left and moved on but my only desire is that they to will accept the Gospel. God's free Gift Eph 2:8. It has been hard work and it does not produce much fruit but God has called me to it. 4. Do you really believe that the new Christians who are now joining the Adventist church are being deceived by Satan? Do you really believe that earnest Seventh-day Adventist Christians are tools of the devil? I cannot seem to find very many Adeventist that will say that Ellen White is a prophet. This is how I see it, she is either a prophet From God who had visions from God and talked with angels, which then means we need to include her writings into the Cannon of the Bible for then the Spirit of prophesy speaks through her. If she is not a prophet then she is a fake and her writings should be cast out of the Church. There is no middle ground, I choose the latter. 5. Do you believe that someone has to be perfect or infallible to be a prophet? Does everything the prophet has ever said or done have to dead-on accurate or perfect? Be careful how you answer this one. It could affect your faith in the Bible. I believe that the Bible is the infallible word of God and thus ALL THE "WRITTINGS" OF THE PROPHETS in the Bible. If you add Ellen Whites writtings to the Bible then it would no longer be infallible. 6. Do you think all Seventh-day Adventists are in complete and perfect agreement with all doctrinal beliefs and church decisions? Do you think this is a requirement to be an Adventist? I am reading a book on the Five Gospels of the Adventist Church, you might know about them. I believe that without faith in God, He can not do his work of revealing truth (1 John 2:27, John 16:13. 14:26 15:26, Eph 1:17,18, 1 Cor 2:6-16) and since the Church does not have faith then this is why they have 5 Gospels. As I am reading the Book and am one third the way through and I am praying that at least one of the Gospels is correct. 7. Do you believe it is fair to define Seventh-day Adventists solely by lifestyle distinctions and preferences? Do you believe that Adventists are uniformly in agreement on all of these? I see Adventist as a group of people who could set the Christian Community on Fire if they would accept the Gospel and trust in God. If they could come out of their bondage and see Grace for what it really is. 8. Do you believe there is anything from your Adventist experience that has helped you in your walk with Christ? Adventism has taught me an invaluable lesson to Trust in Christ and Christ alone, after 39 years of doing it by myself with the result being failure and confusion I have learned That He is the Way the Truth and the Life! I now have a very personel intimate relationship with my saviour and He is giving me victories and understanding. Thankyou for your question's Dr Tazz Could you tell us a little bit about yourself. Bruce H BH | ||
| Susan |
A great big AMEN to Patti and Bruce's answers! I'm not sure I can add to their wonderful comments, but I'll give a few thoughts of my own. First of all welcome Dr. tazz! Perhaps it wasn't chance that you found us? Divine intervention can be rather eye-opening. I won't repeat the questions. But I'll try to answer so that you can follow. #1 I left adventism because almighty God wanted me to. The nudging of the Holy Spirit lead me to see the truth of God, expressed in His inerrant holy word. The lies and cultic doctrines of adventism became evident to me, and I ran with open arms to be a part of the TRUE remnant church (the Body of Christ/Christianity). #2 I left 100% because of it's doctrines!!! As for unChristlike behavior it's seen in all churches. (We can't attain perfection till we're in heaven, this might burst some sda's bubbles) Since being a Christian, I've seen much more Christlike behavior among non-sda's. One needs to walk in The Light to become like The Light. #3 God has ordained all of my days! I wish I could erase my sda upbringing and replace it with a wonderful, spritually non-abusive home. But this experience has caused me to be a seeker of truth. It has made me love Christ more than someone from a normal Christian home might have. I am able to reach out and help other sda's and formers who are searching. I thank God for all of my life. He has created me to be a former adventist forever. I have forgiven and moved on. St. Paul did not forget from where he came. That's why he went to the synagogues on shabbat. To reach the people he understood the most. He cared for them and he knew his calling. Paul moved on in His new life in Christ but he reached out to those in his past. #4 There are many good people in all religions that are just deceived. Satan likes to mix error with truth. This is nothing new. I feel that Satan has twisted God's truth. This can express itself in many ways. I believe EGW is a prime example of twisting the words of God. If this was intentional then she was an evil person. If she was unaware, then who was giving her all of her FALSE visions? I strongly believe Satan's foot is in the teachings of the sda church. I love and pray for the folks in this church. #5 I agree with Bruce. #6 If some sda's are not in agreement with the doctrinal beliefs and decisions of the church, why would they continue to belong? It's absurd that someone would belong to a church family if they didn't believe it's teachings. I'm not sure if believing all doctrines is a requirement anymore. I can only speak for myself. When I was a young child (way to young!) and was baptized into adventism, I had to agree to all their doctrinal positions prior to baptism and membership. Now I know just how UNBIBLICAL this whole process was. # 7 I agree with Patti's answer to this one. I might add that it is VERY fair and biblical to define (or judge) a church on the basis of doctrine. Lifestyle preferences are secondary and in NO way effect one's salvation. I have family in Europe who chose not to have a t.v. and call them devil's boxes. They are some of the finest, devoted, followers of Christ I've ever known. I could care less about how they dress or how they choose to live. Just like I could care less how sda's dress or live. It's the "WHY" behind it. They don't have a t.v. because it's required for salvation or because it's a sign of being the "chosen ones". They just don't have one because it might cause them to view something impure. They didn't need a special prophet to have a vision about whether or not they should have one. They just use their brains and good judgement that God gave them. By the way, I have a t.v. and don't see anything wrong with proper use of one. But I totaly respect their choice not to have one. # 8 I love what Bruce and Patti had to say for this one. My legalistic and spiritually abusive sda up-bringing, has given me an awesome appreciation for who Jesus Christ is. Without adventism in my history I wouldn't know true freedom. St. Paul is such a wonderful example. He considered his past credentials to be meaningless to the greatness of knowing Christ. He obviously didn't forget his past law filled life,(the Jews were part of his outreach) but he pressed on to what was really important. The prize of eternal life with God, through faith in Jesus Christ ALONE. Christianity has given me assurance of salvation. I'm so thankful that God lead me out, and lead me to Him. I don't need adventism to be saved. All I need is Jesus Christ!!! In Christ alone, Susan | ||
| Lori |
First off, in the six months of cruising this website I have yet to see anyone "savaged". I have learned alot from those that post here about dealing with others gently and with love. You asked: 1. Did you leave the Adventist Church because of its doctrines, or did you leave the Church because of a sense of guilt and shame brought by painful childhood memories, past failed relationships, and scary, dysfunctional personal ideas and interpretations? I have pleasant memories of my childhood within the Adventist system. I learned about Jesus Christ through the very institution that I have now chosen to leave. --- However, after years of not understanding why I could substantiate the churches doctrines with scripture alone and not understanding why my own Bible studies didn't come up with the same reasoning of the SDA. I left the church because of doctrinal issues. 2. Did you leave the Adventist Church because of its doctrines, or did you leave the Church because of the unchristlike behavior of other human beings who are Seventh-day Adventists? You will find the display of unchristlike characteristics anywhere and everywhere. Like Bruce, I will have to concur that I never experienced the brunt of un-christlike behaviour until I left the church. 3. Now that you have separated from "the Church", do you forever want to live life as a "former Adventist"? When will you move on? I'm am not defined by the church that I worship at, I'm am a member of the body of Christ My personal feelings are: BEFORE, I was an Adventist, then somewhere after that I was a christian. NOW, I am Christian, period. Technically, I will always be a former Adventist, because,.....I once was one. I can not go back and never have been one. It is a overwhelming experience to leave the SDA church because you are treated so badly by those in the church when you do leave. When you leave over doctrinal issues it's difficult to contain your new joy in Christ, so you try to share it with those who ask. A person that is a Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian and leaves their denomination etc...can not comprehend what you have to overcome to leave the SDA, only another 'former SDA' can understand that process. 4. Do you really believe that the new Christians who are now joining the Adventist church are being deceived by Satan? Do you really believe that earnest Seventh-day Adventist Christians are tools of the devil? No, I don't believe that new converts are being deceived by the devil. I believe they are taking the testimony of man and not taking the time to check it out with the word of God, I believe they are not allowing the Holy Spirit to discern for them and are placing their trust in human flesh. Are SDA Christians tools of the devil? Only if they have seen the truth and they are seeking to conceal it and preach those things that they know to be wrong. 5. Do you believe that someone has to be perfect or infallible to be a prophet? Does everything the prophet has ever said or done have to dead-on accurate or perfect? Be careful how you answer this one. It could affect your faith in the Bible. I believe that all of their predictions must come to pass and their words should not contradict the scripture. As far as being perfect, thats impossible!!! Even those who were the vessels that were inspired to write the words of the scriptures were not perfect, but they allowed the Spirit to work through them. My non-belief in EGW is not based upon her imperfect life, but rather upon her contradictions and additions to the Words of God. 6. Do you think all Seventh-day Adventists are in complete and perfect agreement with all doctrinal beliefs and church decisions? Do you think this is a requirement to be an Adventist? No, I do not think that all SDA are in perfect agreement. I will not find a church that is in perfect agreement with exactly my understanding of scripture. However, to be baptized into the SDA church you have to profess to believe their 27 fundamental beliefs or you will not be baptized and they will not baptize you without baptizing you into the church The requirement of salvation: Faith in Jesus Christ that he died and rose again as a sacrifice for sin------embodies the fairness of God. If their were other requirements and understandings that had to be made and achieved then this would exclude the simple minded and children and many others, including me. This is not a truth that you will find among SDA, faith requires more inside Adventism That is why I chose to leave, to be with like believers. 7. Do you believe it is fair to define Seventh-day Adventists solely by lifestyle distinctions and preferences? Do you believe that Adventists are uniformly in agreement on all of these? The SDA have defined themselves by these practices, I don't think those outside of the church really care what they do. 8. Do you believe there is anything from your Adventist experience that has helped you in your walk with Christ? Most definitely!!!! It has given me the background to really appreciate the meaning of God's covenant with his people. In leaving the bondage of legalism, I have found the glorious riches of Gods grace. I would never grasped that otherwise. It would have meant nothing to me. | ||
| Plain Patti |
Thank you Bruce, Susan, and Lori, for your comments. Doctortazz, I hope this will show you what I meant by us coming to the same conclusions independently of each other. I have never met, communicated with, or otherwise know anything about the identities of these lovely people here other than what they have posted on this forum. It is so comforting to find that others have gone through the same experiences, found the same Gospel, and choose also to live in grace instead of under the heavy burden of the many laws of SDAism. God bless you all! And God bless you, too, Doc, and all of us here, as we continue to seek for Truth, as we live in humble appreciation of God's infinite mercy. Patti |
