| Author | Message | ||
| Plain Patti |
Dear Maryann, I would like to echo Jude's suggestion that you write a book. Putting it all on paper, I think, does as much, if not more, for the person writing as it does for the reader. My mother's story is mine, of course, up to the time we left the church. We left within the same time frame. I was a couple of steps ahead of Mom because I had never liked Ellen White. I never was an avid "underliner" of the words of the "SOP." Another reason I was slightly ahead of Mom in "apostasizing" is that I was not raised by HER mother. Sometimes I think my grandma was Ellen reincarnated. I remember when I was young, broke, married 2 years, having just given birth to my second baby, she set me down and read to me from the little red books how it was a sin to have children that you couldn't afford. All I remember saying is, "OK, Grandma. I'll just send her back to where she came from." That was her "Christian witness" to me. My poor little grandmother. She had a very difficult time loving her own. Others were no problem. She told me once she could never love me because of the way I fought with my little sister. This is the mental concept I have of how Ellen was in person. Anyway, I digress. I would encourage you to write down your story. Mom has never published her book; she has tried, but it takes a lot of capital to have one published if it is not picked up by a publisher. But she has made it available at several sites online. It has been of much encouragement to those former SDAs who have read it. And I know that your whole story would touch others just as your partial story touched us here. Welcome to FAF. Hope you will hang around. I have been here only couple of weeks. I had someone hateful follow me here, posting letters with hidden threats and innuendos for me. These folks gathered me in like a mother hen gathers her chicks. As we say in Arkansas (I know, Jude, I said I was a Texan. I am. There are two kinds of Arkansans: Those living in poverty, and those who moved to Texas. I fall into the latter class.), "them is good folks here!" God bless you! Looking forward to hearing more from you. Grace and peace Patti | ||
| Lynn W |
Patti: "she could never love me because of the way I fought with my little sister." This too sounds like a Ellen White quote. The one where God cannot love bad children. | ||
| Lynn W |
Here's my unsolicited Testimony. Obviously, I'm not a writer, but I seem to be the only one on here who hasn't given any kind of testimony yet. In light of recent posts on here, I thought it would be good to tell a little of where I'm coming from & my current position on Adventism. This is also the intro to a study I sometimes share with SDA friends. It's a manuscript that will never be published, mostly because it will never be finished - it's always evolving as I study. SO WHY PICK ON ADVENTISTS? Letís start by asking some important questions. Isnít Seventh-Day Adventism a genuine Christian alternative? Arenít they just a little different than the norm, but basically a church with a lot of good going for it? Whatís wrong with being different? Or, as the bumper sticker asks, ìWhy be normal?î The Adventist church does indeed have a lot of good going for it. They have an admirable health message which is not only taught as part of their doctrine, but widely practiced by the lay people as well as the leaders. They have extensive outreach programs to the public, which include free Bibles and lessons, and are genuinely free of pressure to contribute in return. So, why would anyone want to pick on Adventists? Am I just bored, with nothing better to do than to pick on other peopleís religions? And if so, why not chose the religions that are traditionally fair game for ìmain-streamî Protestants to pick on, such as the Mormons and Jehovahís Witness? Do I simply want to be different? After all, ìwhy be normal?í Or am I just another disgruntled ex-Adventist with an ax to grind? Just what brought about this work, anyway? My own history is not untypical of how many people learn about Adventism. This may even sound familiar. Early in our marriage, my husband and I met a very dear Adventist couple who explained to us the need to keep the Sabbath because itís one of the Ten Commandments. At first we asked, ìwell then why not keep all of the Old Testament laws?î They explained that we only need to keep the Ten because that is ìthe law of Godî and the rest was ìthe law of Moses.î So we thought, ìno problem, we can do that.î Then they told us we canít eat pork or shrimp. Well thatís not one of the Ten commandments, but it is in the Old Testament. So that was a maybe, but it also contradicted their previous reasoning. Then they told us we canít eat any meat and I canít wear makeup or jewelry. Wait a minute, these are not only not part of the Ten Commandments, they are not even Biblical. Since then, we have been inundated with taboos against various food, and a lot of other rules about what we can & cannot do. So far, the list seems to be endless. We are not, nor ever have been baptized members of the SDA Church. However, we have spent 20 years studying Adventism. We do not study Adventism the way most non-Adventists do, which is to simply go to an Adventist and ask, "what do you believe?", or to read a book on cults written by other non-Adventists. We study as an Adventist - that is from the inside. We've attended many Adventist home Bible studies, seminars, crusades, church and Sabbath classes. in addition to reading numerous Adventist books. I did not at any time seek to find a religion that I could some day ìpick onî through my writings. In fact, we never actually sought out any Adventists. Somehow, they always seemed to find us; and our lives have been richly blessed by the Adventist friends we have. With few, unnotable exceptions, they have been a joy to be with. Most have shown us genuine respect and friendship even after discovering that we are what they call ìSunday-keepers.î They have shown patience above and beyond the call as I have tried in all sincerity to learn and understand their beliefs. And most have kept a good sense of humor in spite of the fact that I continue to take exception to many of their doctrines. I can genuinely say that I have a very deep love and respect for more than just a few Seventh-Day Adventists. Come to think of it, why should I want to pick on Adventists? Wouldnít it be easier to just live in peace with my Adventist friends than to risk alienating them with a work like this? Most definitely! But it is this love for them, and for God that drives me on to keep studying, praying, reading, writing, praying, searching, and praying on these matters. It is to them that I dedicate his work with love and with hope. My greatest desire is not to ìpick onî anyone, but to share some of the things I have learned over the years. I hope that Adventists will be able to read this with an open and teachable mind. I also hope that I will always remain teachable myself. After 20 years of study, I know that I do not have the final word on this matter. Adventism is one of the most complex religious systems known. It boasts a founder who is possibly the most prolific of female authors known; and few people have even read all of her writings, let alone the multitude of other Adventist books available. I can only hope and pray that Adventists will be able to see truths they have never seen before, and to rethink ideas they have always taken for granted. This is an attempt to present many ideas from a different angle than most have considered. I have been asked what is the source I use for the information I use in my writings. What I do NOT use is non-Adventist sources to tell me what Adventists believe. Out of respect for Adventists, my sources are twofold: 1) A bible, with a standard Exhaustive Concordance 2) Adventist writings, especially Ellen White It is not the goal of this work to try to convert anyone to my religion as I donít have any. And, unfortunately, there is no such thing as a perfect church. Itís unlikely that any of us will find a church that fits our beliefs 100%; we must choose the church that comes closest to what we believe. The more we studied SDA and the bible, the more we realized that we had to chose between the two. This paper is an answer for why we have chosen the Bible over Adventism. If nothing else, it is my hope that this work will give you a deeper hunger for and a more extensive knowledge of The Word. If that happens, it will have accomplished its mission. ìDear Lord, please open the eyes of my Adventists friends. Please remove the piles of clutter that has been placed between them and Your Word. Please send Your Spirit on ahead to pave the way and to clear the path so that Your Word can follow. Most of all, I pray against the fear of learning something new and letting go of the old security blanket of religion. Let Your Peace be the net that catches all who are willing to take a leap into a wide, unknown world of total faith and trust in Your Word and Your Word alone as the source of all Truth. I pray this in the Name of the One who truly has borne our sins and given us His undeserved Righteousness. Amen.î ìAm I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?î Galatians 4:16. | ||
| Plain Patti |
Oops, I made a serious mistake. I said "There are two kinds of Arkansans: Those living in poverty, and those who moved to Texas. I fall into the latter class." Actually there are three kinds of Arkansans: Those living in poverty, Those living in Texas, And those living in the White House... But let's not go there.... | ||
| Plain Patti |
Lynn said: It is not the goal of this work to try to convert anyone to my religion as I donít have any. And, unfortunately, there is no such thing as a perfect church. Itís unlikely that any of us will find a church that fits our beliefs 100%; we must choose the church that comes closest to what we believe. Patti: You know, I think that is one of the hardest things to realize after leaving "the only true church." So many people, after leaving SDAism, go out seeking the "real" true church. It is a mind set--"If this is not the "true" church, which one is? I think it takes a while to soak in. Perhaps some of you have actually gone on a "true church" quest. I watched a good friend of mine going from one denomination to the next on this search. The minute the pastor or one of the congregation said something that she felt was not biblically accurate--such as baptism is required for salvation, and only baptism by immersion is accepted of God--she left. She started with other sabbatarian groups, such as the SDB, but found them to be almost as proud of their distinguishing "commandment" as the SDAs were. Then she visited some independent sabbatarian churches--still, she found that they tended to point to their sabbath keeping as the mark of their salvation rather than the merits of Christ. When she finally broke down and began to visit churches (avoiding the mainstream churches) who worshipped on Sunday, she had similar experiences. She found legalism rampant, each of the smaller, more fundamental denominations pointing to themselves as God's favorites. She got a job with a Presbyterian church, found a pastor that preached grace, and a congregation that accepted her because of Christ's merits and found a home. I am not saying that Presbyterian is right for everyone. I believe that it is the individual congregations and pastor that make a church a home. My preference of worship is with the Methodists, as I have found most of the congregations with whom I have worshipped to be very tolerant and open. I also like their altar communion. But these are merely my preferences--what I feel comfortable with. I can worship freely with anyone who believes our salvation has been perfected in Jesus Christ alone. I think it takes awhile to get over many things in SDAism--one of them being the "only true church" syndrome. When I finally made my break with the church--the sabbath was the last tie to break, btw--my mother was very worried. She quoted the text to me, "Lord, if we leave you, where will we go?" (She has come a LONG way since then!) It is this kind of uncertainty that keeps a lot of people from leaving SDAism, I am sure, sort of like an abused wife who is afraid to leave her husband because she has no place to go. Just remember it was the SDAs who put that fear of the "daughters of the harlot" into us. One of my strongest feelings upon visiting other churches was that I was free to love people again. I was accepted in Christ, accepted in the congregation; I could be MYSELF. What freedom! Anyway, I have gone on and on..as usual. My point is that there is no "remnant" denomination; there is no human organization that can possibly contain all the Truth of God. But God's church invisible is everywhere. And membership can never be taken away from you. God bless. Patti | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Plain Patti, When you wrote, "My poor little grandmother. She had a very difficult time loving her own. Others were no problem. She told me once she could never love me because of the way I fought with my little sister." I underwent a jolt of electricity. In that snippet of your young experience is the heart and soul of the cultish sin that SDAs unwittingly indulge. To be more explicit: Your grandmother was denying the inner reality that she didn't love herself, denying her ingrained feeling that her own parents didn't love her, and that therefore even God didn't love her, because of her own false feeling that she was unloveable. She unknowingly felt she was "heart and soul" unloveable but couldn't accept the reality, it being too painful. Then, just as unwittingly she purged her pain ("propitiated" is the thological term), by dumping it on you. Thus she was able to "feel better" about herself, this too unwittingly. What a crime! What a perpetration! What a sin! What a need for a personal Savior! First: A crime and sin against you, an innocent child and victim. Second: A crime and sin against herself, probably also a victim of her own parents and grandparents, and who knows who else. Third: A crime and a sin against God, who had provided a Savior for your grandmother 2000 years ago. Only she, for whatever reason, was unable to inculcate the spiritual reality of the cross into her heart and soul and so passed the sin along to you like the AIDS virus! Your grandmother was an idolator of the first order. Because in harming you, she was worshipping Moloch, a false and evil god who in ancient times demanded that parents literally fry their own babies in the outstretched arms of the hollow metallic image (Moloch's priests kept a fire burning inside the hollow idol made of bronze). The parents thus were "purging" their own sins while that most wonderful Israelite prophet Micah (6:7) was crying out, "Will the LORD [Yaweh, the unseen but only real God] be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?" Yes, Patti, your grandmother was most surely sacrificing you to Moloch when she said she couldn't love you. Hers was a spiritually evil act, perhaps even worse than the literally evil act of the Moloch worshippers, because those babies died and were spared a lifetime of inner spiritual pain and turmoil and self-hate and need-to-purge by perpetration on others perceived as weaker than themselves, like the pecking order of a henhouse or the "law of the jungle" on the "mean streets" of East Los Angeles. And so was fulfilled by her against you that terrible prophecy of Moses (Exodus 20:4-5, NIV) known as the Second Commandment: "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me...." But YOU are the truly favored one, Plain Patti, for you have -- like Susan and Lynn and all the rest of us here on this website -- have accepted the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. And in so doing you have successfully "broken the chain" of generationally perpetrated sin of which Moses so eloquently prophesied. This is the heart and soul of the gospel. This is the good news. This is salvation. This is justification. This is sanctification. This is the victory that "overcometh the world" of abuse. This is the kingdom of heaven that exists among us and around us (Luke 17:20,21). This is what the most unfortunate Dr. Tazz is missing, and the reason he needs our prayers even more than he needs our insights. And as a result of this, and this alone, you did not "fight mud with mud" against him. But even if you did (and I'm NOT saying you did), you can take comfort from that most precious New Testament prophet John (1:8-10): "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him [remember, John's talking about the Holy Spirit of Christ here, 'Jesus Christ, the Righteous One'] out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives." I'm so pround of you all, everyone on formeradventist.com, who answered Dr. Tazz with the "raw stuff" of the gospel of Jesus Christ, your own personal witness to the "faith, hope and love" that burns within us all. God's superabundent blessings! Jude | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Dear Lynn, Most obviously you are indeed a writer! Your personal testimony is as eloquent as any yet posted. And -- guess what? -- you did just publish! For anything you post on the Internet under or over your name (first name only or pen name, doesn't matter) is automatically published both in fact and in law (de facto and de jure) and you have an automatic, legally protected copyright, whether you make the claim or not. (My entire professional career has been in publishing, that's how I know this.) And anything you post under your name can potentially go around the world. Bless you, Lynn, child of the Most High, Jude |
