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Archive through February 3, 2000Jude the Obscure2-03-00  3:54 pm
Archive through February 5, 2000Maryann2-05-00  8:55 pm
Archive through February 8, 2000Allenette2-08-00  1:31 pm
Archive through February 17, 2000Lynn W2-17-00  4:28 pm
Archive through February 17, 2000Lynn W2-17-00  7:04 pm
Archive through February 18, 2000Gary Mayo2-18-00  12:29 pm
Archive through March 8, 2000Susan20 3-08-00  7:02 am
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Lynn W
Posted on Wednesday, March 08, 2000 - 9:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

George, I read your post first with amusement at recognizing my own self in the descriptions of rage - been there, done that - no meat cleaver, just a couple of doors broken off their hinges, and a dent in the floor.

Then with with sadness that you seem to have given up on God. There is another way. Prayer is not enough. I must go way beyond prayer and praise Him for His goodness and all that He has done for me and provided for me. He immediately puts everything into perspective. I start with the little things before they escalate. Recently, I was having a bad day and turned on the hot water faucet at the kitchen sink and stood there for what seemed like an hour waiting for the water to get hot. Then I thought this is ridiculous! It takes so long for the water to get hot in this kitchen! (a few minutes). I shouldn't have to put up with this! Then I remembered how fortunate I am to have clean running water inside a warm, dry house. Not everyone in this world has that. Then I began praising and thanking God for a multitude of great things He has done for me. I have my health, a great husband, a home, friends, a good church, a computer, clothes, cats, dogs, 2 vehicles that run, etc. etc. All this because He has provided. You could say it's because my husband has a good job, but it's God who has given him 2 good legs, arms, and a mind to do the work. It was God who prompted his boss to recognize Dave's abilities and give him a promotion. It was God who brought Dave and I together, etc. etc.
I have a friend in a wheelchair, I have divorced friends, I have friends deeply in debt, some have cancer, but they praise God for His goodness and are happy to be alive.

Whether I pray for every little thing or not, I can do nothing without Him for my very breath comes from Him - whether I remember to thank Him for each breath or not. Prayer is just asking God for more. Praise is recognizing what He has already done, like giving up His cushy home in Heaven and coming here to be abused on my behalf so that I could be counted worthy to share His home with Him.

When I get angry, I have to stop what I'm doing and pray for God to put it in perspective for me. Then I thank Him for everything, even this situation. He reminds me that in the grand scheme of things, a faucet is nothing - at least I have one. A bad hair day is nothing - I've still got hair. A slow computer is nothing - how many people in Sudan have computers? Some don't even have food. Many have lost there freedom. How can I be upset about my little problems?

When asking God for more doesn't seem to work, try praise. I'd willing to bet that if you got out a piece of paper & pencil & tried to write down 100 things to be thankful for, you'd have no trouble thinking of things. How about eyes to see and fingers to type with for starters?
Susan
Posted on Wednesday, March 08, 2000 - 11:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lynn, I agree that we need to concentrate more on praising God. But isn't offering up praise and thanksgiving just a form of prayer? I didn't mean to imply that our prayers should be a laundry list to God of what we want. Although, these details (however small they seem in the big scheme of things) are really important to God! I can relate to the bad hair day thing. How can I dare get upset over my hair, when there are so many horrific things going on in the world? But the amazing thing is that Yes, God really does care about all the little details in our lives. Perhaps I'm not struggling with divorce or starvation but I may have other problems that are difficult for me and I believe we can ask God for help.
You have made some excellent points. When we praise God and offer up thanks for all of our blessings, our problems seem to take on a different perspective. The Holy Spirit can work in us and help us through anything. I think praising God should be a daily "given" in the life of a believer. But we should never feel timid or gulity about approaching God with any or all of our needs. He wants praise, but he also wants to help.
Just my 2 cents!
Lynn W
Posted on Wednesday, March 08, 2000 - 12:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susan, you're absolutely right. I know you didn't imply prayer as just asking for things, but for some, that's what they think of when they think of prayer. Praise is part of prayer, but for some, it's a new experience. I do go to God with the little things as well as the big. It's an ongoing conversation. For those who think of God as our Lord, personal friend, savior, provider, protector, etc., for them prayer, praise, thanksgiving etc. is a natural part of communication with Him.
But for those who stop with asking, life can be a frustration and disappointment, always focusing on what we don't have. I have two friends I have helped during time of need. One is grateful for everything I do, the other just says, "while you're at it, could you do this too?" I find it's much more enjoyable to help the one who is grateful. God has feelings too. He loves us & wants us to love Him. I think He gets more enjoyment out of helping those who appreciate Him. Now that's not to say He doesn't help those who don't. But the Bible is full of examples where the battle was won through praise, not by the sword.
Colleentinker
Posted on Wednesday, March 08, 2000 - 9:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Georgeóthe problem I struggled with for many years was this: I could do all the steps and make all the choices which true authorities recommended for my problems (I struggled with an eating disorder and overwhelming worry not to mention fear of losing my salvation, etc.). But after doing all the steps and resisting the offending behavior, I still had an internal struggle. I still felt frantic or guilty or unworthy or angry or worried. The altered behaviors just didn't stop the feelings.

Only learning, gradually, who I was in Jesus has changed those deepest sources of my compulsions. And admitting that Satan could get a foothold through my unresolved guilt and pain made it possible for me to ask Jesus to send away the harassing spirit and place his Spirit in its place. That, by the way, was what ended a lifetime of chronic to severe worry.

Your anger, George, is probably not gone; just quiescent. But when you know who you are IN CHRIST, you cease to be angry and become instead a saint, a victorious son of God!

I will pray for you.
Bruce H
Posted on Wednesday, March 08, 2000 - 10:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

George

Let me tell you about my Lord and savior.

He just Helped my daughter find her lost hampster
after she prayed for help.

This last year He completely healed a Baby who had
spina bifida after the whole Church went into
fasting and prayer (they have medical records that
show it).

He is working with His Spirit on my childrens
future husband and wives because I pray daily for
them. ( I have three Children, Kristin - 16, Scott
- 15, Cody - 8.)

His Spirit is working with you because I pray
daily for YOU.

He takes away my anger because I admit to Him that
I myself cannot get ride of it, ONLY HE JESUS
CHRIST CAN DO THAT!!!!!

He has brought my whole family, and most of the
people at my work to a saving realtionship with
our God by Prayer and Prayer alone.

He is awsome and powerful.

He has changed me from a person who thought that
God was a bunch of bull, and the Bible was a bunch
of myths and stories passed down through the
years, to a person who knows the the Bible is the
word of God that gives Life and I mean LIFE WITH A
CAPITAL L, and the bible tell me about the most
awsome, loving, wise, caring, Lord who has a
Spirit who has a little sense of humor.

Bruce Heinrich

Trust in Him.
Lydell
Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2000 - 7:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bruce, a LITTLE sense of humor?!?! Good grief. Look at what he has to put up with in us?! ha I like what you had to say about praise Lynn. I think an important point of praise is not that God needs for us to tell Him who He is, but we need to remind ourselves of who He is and what He has done. After doing that, it puts the rest of what we pray for into perspective. It helps us begin to see that, yes, there is a solution to our problem, there is hope after all.
Patrick
Posted on Sunday, August 06, 2000 - 2:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

George;
I'm truly sorry for the amount of pain that is so obvious in your life, however, I think you do God a disservice in your commentary.
I've worked with a lot of alcoholics and have been involved with A.A. (both personally & professionally). The problem with giving yourself over to a higher power or a god as you understand him, her, or it, verses giving your life to God the Creator is that in the first case you are still an alcoholic that is simply not drinking, and usually white knuckling it through their sobriety. Their life as a rule simply boils down to not drinking. That is their day. Day after day.
However, in the case of asking God / Jesus into their heart and asking Him to release them from the power of their addiction, they will truly be set free. The desire to drink simply fades away. They will no longer have time for it because it comes between them and what they truly love..... (even more than inebreation).
They don't have to hide from situations that might make them slip, or live in fear of when they will slip. They know they have the strength of the living God. They know he is real, not just something they have made up to keep them straight, like some sort of good luck charm or totem.
Also, as you may already know, the original founders of A.A. were Christians and refering to God in their preamble. It was changed later so that other people would feel more comfortable about not having a god they would be accountable to.
I guess I have some heartburn with A.A. because they support the spread of a lie. Telling people that they can make God in their own image and to their own liking is, in essence, telling them that they can save themselves. I think they have done a lot of harm in the name of doing good.
As for your question; no I can not go to the bathroom, get up out of bed, or speed in my car without God allowing it, for I am wonderfully made, and made by a wonderful God.
I pray that you will seek God in prayer and see His power at work first hand. Keep seeking brother, keep knocking, keep loving.
Much love & prayers.
Pat.
Allenette
Posted on Sunday, August 06, 2000 - 9:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Talk about micromanaging a universe! (and I thought I was a control freak!) God found a hamster? Well, hamsters DO have a way of making themselves heard in the walls they usually fall into, in case someone doesnt know about that.

I really HATE to be suggesting to God that he put his infinite resources elsewhere, but...those people on the Concorde, for example, really would have appreciated HIM zapping out the unfortunate fire that sealed their fate. Just one example. I guess indoctrinating your kidlets about their pet's importance with God beats clueing them in about their own human's importance with same? Just a-wonderin.....doc.
Allenette
Posted on Sunday, August 06, 2000 - 9:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bruce: (No offense intended..just a-wonderin) you as a doc, know about the advances in treating spina bifida these days...I HOPE. Who do YOU credit with those advances? I'm guessing its not the hard working researcher docs who have done the "legwork", but God? Down the same path, who do you credit with the Human Genome project? Not the computers and the researchers but God??? Honestly, I'm just a-wonderin, because, YOU as a doc, put in years and years of study, WHICH YOU SHOULD rightfully take credit for, or do you also thank God for that, too? Just a-wonderin.....

CREDIT WHERE CREDIT IS DUE, BROTHA!
George
Posted on Sunday, August 06, 2000 - 9:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Patrick,

You are going a long way back to find the post to which you refer. So much has happened since then!!

I donít know just how you were involved with AA but I donít think you fully understand what---- God as you understand Him--- means. I donít know how Bill W. and the other founders of AA wrote the preamble, but I am glad it was changed if it was, because it gives everyone a chance to get sober if they want to, regardless of who they believe in. You see, there are a lot of addicted people that donít believe in God as You know Him or any god for that matter. If AA was God of the bible organization where would these people go? It was in the name of that God that a lot of the unspeakable things happened to them that started them drinking in the first place. Why would they want to go to a God of the bible based organization, to get more of the same??

Yes there are dry drunks, and they may never give up acting and thinking like drunks, but if for one day they donít drink, they are still dry and someday they may find out how to go on from there. Something they would never have a chance to do if they were still drinking.

In AA you can learn living skills, how to not get angry, how to give up resentment, how to go to those you have wronged and make it right if doing so will not hurt them more, how to be happy with yourself where you are in your recovery, in other words you can learn how to be a good person, by anyoneís standards. If God of the bible groups would do the same there would be a lot less mess in the world today, but they for the most part tell you that you are going to hell if you donít do what God says, but they donít tell you how. Pray they say. AA will teach you how to do all these things, all the while letting you believe in who ever you want.

AA does not ìin essenceî tell them they can do it them selves. You have to believe in someone higher than yourself because they all know that believing in them selves didnít get them anywhere.

I would think that anyone that was truly ìsavedî would be big enough to let people believe in God as THEY understand Him if it will get them off the bottle. If you were drowning and there were two people you could grab onto, one being God as you understand him and the other just out of reach, and always will be, being God of the bible, who would you grab onto? Remember, God of the bible is just out of reach and always will be.

You bet, you will grab onto --God as you understand him--, only foolish pride will stop you and let you die. You can then go on to know the God of the bible. Remember it says god as you understand him, NOT God as you made him.

If as you say you really think AA ìhas done more harm than goodî you, like so many others, have really misses the boat. Oh and by the way, Who put you in a position to judge them.

George

P.S. I am happy you have fould something to believe in, but, you must also be happy for others when they something to believe in as it might be their last chance.
Patti
Posted on Sunday, August 06, 2000 - 9:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

George,

I experienced Al-Anon. I was married to an abusive alcoholic. I agree with you. Al-Anon gave me what I have never seen available in a religious setting. In fact, my minister recommended that I go to Al-Anon, because this was just the purpose that that organization was set up. Al-Anon gave me a lot of tools for living in this world. Many Christians, IMO, pull their self-righteous skirts around themselves, not wanting to be tainted by the sinfulness of alcoholism; Al-Anon and AA lives and thrives with real people with real problems. In the first place, one can never be totally honest with himself or others in a religious support group because of the expectations that have been set up. Those who have never experienced the same set of problems can quite self-righteously say, Well, just pray about it and Christ will help you. While I am not denying this, I believe that most of our living, even though we may pray for guidance, we have to figure out for ourselves. And it is easy to look down upon people struggling with alcohol, drugs, weight, smoking, etc. etc. when we have never experienced such addictions. In an Al-Anon or AA meeting you meet people who have had to come to grips with the reality of themselves; who have had to face who they were, warts and all.

What I found out through Al-Anon was that I had many unresolved problems in myself that I needed to focus upon instead of upon the alcoholism of my husband. While I have never been chemically addicted, I nonetheless had controling addictions in my life: I was addicted to being in control and to religious fanaticism. I believe that the latter is extremely hard to overcome, perhaps even harder than a chemical addiction, because in religious fanaticism the person thinks he is doing what is "right" and sanctioned by God Himself. It is very difficult to break an addiction to religion. I have to admit, although the Al-Anon creed does not specify belief in Jesus Christ, that it was partly through Al-Anon that I was able to let go of at least part of my desire to be in control of everything, including my eternal destiny, and to leave that in God's hands. The serenity prayer is still a major part of my philosophy of life.
Maryann
Posted on Sunday, August 06, 2000 - 11:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi,

I can tell you of a case where one spouse was an alcoholic and the other spouse said, enough. So the alcolholic cold turkey quit. Great. The sober spouse said that the alcoholic needed to start AA and Al-non so as to understand what the family lived through for 12+ years and pick up a few living skills.

Instead, the alcoholic went to a legalistic church and was told that all that was needed was a good dose of God. Going to AA and Al-non was NOT needed, infact discouraged strongly. After 1 1/2 years, the problems were still there. The problems stayed the same even though the drinking quit totally.

There was a lot of legalistic support from the church. The church still maintained that all that was needed was God. The alcoholic still behaved the same even though alcohol was not involved, (dry drunk).

The family was in limbo. The family never knew what to expect. The little love that was left was dying quickly.

The church had no concept of how to teach the recovering alhoholic living skills. AA and Al-non could have helped teach those skills.

Up-date: the family is split now.

Am I saying that God has no place in the recovering alcoholic's life? NO!

I am saying that in the above case that the alcholic and family may still have been together today had some religious group not kept insisting that AA and Al-non were bogus, self centered and useless.

AA and Al-non have been successful many, many, many, many, many times.

AA and Al-non meet the alcoholic where they are at, NOT where they think they should be at!

People that are out trying to bring people in to their "particular fold" might do well to learn the principle that AA and Al-non has already learned. Jesus comes to us where we are at.

Onward and upward.....Maryann
Colleentinker
Posted on Sunday, August 06, 2000 - 11:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Amen, Maryann. And I praise Him that he does find us wherever we are!

Colleen
George
Posted on Monday, August 07, 2000 - 7:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Patti,

Some day I will learn to express myself as good as you.

Out of time, enjoyed your post, got to go.

George
Patrick
Posted on Monday, August 07, 2000 - 8:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

George;
Please forgive me. Evidently my post sounded intolerent and "judgemental." It was not intended to be. However, I stand by my position.
I'm also sorry for the intolerent and judgemental attitudes of professed Christians, (myself included at times), throughout the ages. Like the old saying says "thank God, Christ wasn't a Christian."
However, if I claim Christ as my Lord and Savior, and I do, and I say that I am a follower of Christ, (a Christian), then I can not think or believe that there is any other way to solve the problems of mankind, (sin). Including alcoholism and other addictions.
I agree that sobriety is a good thing, so does God. But when in the process of becoming sober you are told that there are many paths that lead to a god, a.k.a. "higher power," and that that higher power can be what ever you want to make it, well.... sorry but that is idolotry and a lie. As previously stated, if I am a Christian, I can not feel any other way.
If a man is dying of thirst, (needs to be saved), and you offer him a glass of pure clean water, (the truth), however, you put a drop of poison in it as you hand it to him, (a lie, i.e. there are ways to salvation other than Christ), it's going to kill him just as dead as thirsting to death would.
Again, if this is viewed as an intolerent or judgemental attitude, I am sorry that you view it that way. If it is an offense to you, well Jesus said that that would happen too. All I can do is try and express myself in a more Christ like manner, and try not to add fuel to the fire of intolerence against "Christians" because of what many professed Christians have done over time, in the name of God.
George I am happy for anyone's sobriety. I truly am. It is next to impossible to allow God into your life when your in a haze of any kind. It's even difficult to do sober, because it is against our very nature. However, to gain sobriety and live a lie, is a very sad thing.
It was not my intention to cause contoversy here. If I have I, apologize. I ask your forgiveness and tolerence. I am simply stating my belief in Christ as my Savior, nothing more.
Maybe it is best if I stay clear of this particular subjest, (A.A.), and I will.
God bless, much love & prayers.
Pat

P.S. George, your right. You don't know what my background or involvement with alcohol, drugs, or recovery programs is. So let's just let it lay. OK?
Peace brother.
Pat
Maryann
Posted on Monday, August 07, 2000 - 1:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Y'all,

If you are dying of thirst in the desert and a non-christian, athiest, mormon, jw, rc, or any other person of non-gospel teaching persuasion comes along with a jug of water, are you going to accept it or wait for a gospel teaching christian to come along.

What about your doctor? What about your dentist?

Think about it......Maryann

PS....You might even be able to find a witnessing field among these "non-christians"?!
George
Posted on Monday, August 07, 2000 - 9:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Patrick,

What can I say, you have not offended me, just pushed some buttons you could never have known about. But that is ok as now I know they are there too, and can work to get rid of them.

If I may, I would like to respond to your last post to me. We have two very different views of what AA actualy is.

I have never thought, nor have I ever heard any one in AA say that AA was a way to salvation. It is not, as believing in Christ is the only way, I think you and I agree on that point.

My understanding of believing in a higher power differes from yours also. If a person is so low that he is below the bottom, and they see God there with them, not as a savior, but as a partner in crime if you will, they then have NOTHING to believe in. At this point anything is higher than them, it does not have to be made into a God, it is as simple as finding something to live for. It has to be higher than yourself, because you know where you are. Believing in that something then gives you the "power" to start on the road back. As I say, it does not have to be made into a God, It can be as simple as believing that a son or daughter or other person is worth living for. I was fortunate enough to have such a person in my life. It took many years, but here I am believing in God again.

As I have stated else where on this forum, it is not my intention to change your mind about anything, if you see value in what I say you are free to make my ideas your own. But if you don't, that is ok too.

I hope you can see where I am coming from.

The best to you always----George
Colleentinker
Posted on Monday, August 07, 2000 - 10:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You know what always amazes me? God leads each person to himself in a completely individualized way, to borrow a phrase from education.

What would work for one of us would not work for certain others. God in his sovereign grace knows exactly what we need to recognize him and to hear his voice.

I often think of Jesus saying that if the people shouting "Hosannah!" to him were silenced, the rocks would cry out. He makes sure that we each have a chance to know him personally!

Praise Him!
Colleen
Patrick
Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2000 - 8:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

George:
Amen & Amen.
Thank you for your brotherly response. Maybe I was an Adventist to long, but I confess I seriously expected contention. You have humbled me with your Christian attitude and response. Thank you and I Thank Jesus as well.
God bless. Much love & prayers.
Pat
George
Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2000 - 8:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Patrick,

Thanks for your very kind words. Hang in there.

George
Bmorgan
Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2000 - 10:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Patrick and George,

How good and pleasant it is for brothers to dwell together in unity. May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God and the fellowship of His Holy Spirit be with you all.

God is awesome. His wonder working power makes us whole. The contentious, angry spirits vanish and we live with PEACE in our hearts.

Isn't that wonderful. What a miracle.

This happens when we have Christ ALONE.

BMorgan

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